I was just reading the post about emergency c-sections and it got me thinking.  I am breeding a very small breed bitch and I know this breed is well known for having c-sections.  Do vets do planned c-sections, you now like humans can opt for one if the baby is huge or not laying right.  I was just thinking if it was likely she'd need one anyway, why wait till it becomes an emergency.  Obviously i know that she will bond better with the pups if she has given birth naturally, but i don't want her to get into distress if it can be avoided.

Your thoughts please if you'd be so kind

The idea is to have self whelping bitches, so a planned C section is a failure in my book.

I feel the same..

I am in total agreement that bitches should self whelp - but I did recently hear of a vet that 'specialises' in pre booked C sections - apparently they've never lost a puppy!!!

Thanks guys, i'm not planning on Megan having a c-section, i'm hoping for the natural self whelp experience.  I just wondered if planned c-sections were something that happened in the dog world.

xxxx

Yes they happen all the time, especially with bulldogs.
Liz

> I just wondered if planned c-sections were something that happened in the dog world.
>

Unfortunately they do. :(

> The idea is to have self whelping bitches, so a planned C section is a failure in my book.

have to agree with this statement, c-sections should be only when something goes wrong, then of course intervention is neccessary but not planned because you KNOW your girl cant whelp naturally.

> Yes they happen all the time, especially with bulldogs.
>

And Peekes.  Our breeder plans the section due to the risk of the bitch.  Don't know enough if it's s Peeke thing or precaution.

I've read that a lot of your breed have had to have a section as a matter of course but unsure if its still current.

Hopefully Jeansw will be around soon, its her speciallity and her lines are self whelping (Jeans breeding I think).

Ellie had an elective c-section last time - not quite the same as planned, but not an emergency either. As my breed doesn't generally go to term let alone over, and we were pretty sure it was a small litter, we had to have the c-section when she went overdue, and sure enough it was a singleton.

Jeansw might be about now to help advise you.

> I did recently hear of a vet that 'specialises' in pre booked C sections

Do we now have bitches that are too posh to push ?!!!!!

Or owners who are too 'busy' to stay up all night to whelp a litter....

On this subject just thought that you might be interested that all C- sections for Pedigree breeds are now reported to the BVA by the vets , so that they can moniter all c sections for all the breeds concerned , ie bulldogs , pekes , chi, Frenchies etc.
The reports are then forwarded to the KC for future ref to see if the Standard needs to be changed again, so that the health of the breed is first and formost.

Peanuts

An interesting topic and one that I can identify you, as have just got back from the vet, discussing potential need for Oxytocin or a C-section (touch wood we won't need either)and he told me that it depended entirely on the bitch, the litter, the labour and...the time! He said if it was 10 o'clock at night he would probably just go for a C-section to save us having to still be up at 3am! Well, I was planning on being up all night if necessary, so I thought this was a bit odd. Having said that, I did stand behind a woman in Reception who said to the vet & receptionist that she was hoping to have puppies soon,  that her bitch had been living with a dog for 3 months and had come into season twice (!!!???) and was it true that she needed to be in heat to get pregnant!!!!!!!! So gobsmacked at least twice!

> I did stand behind a woman in Reception who said to the vet & receptionist that she was hoping to have puppies soon,  that her bitch had been living with a dog for 3 months and had come into season twice (!!!???) and was it true that she needed to be in heat to get pregnant!!!!!!!! So gobsmacked at least twice!

You not the only one! what are these people like??

> You not the only one! what are these people like??

Ironically these people are the ones who's dog sails through pregnancy and birth without any probs or concerns (not that i wish it on the poor dog) and never experience the upsets of when things go wrong. Not that this sort of person would care anyway i suppose!

Oooohh!!   A topic that has me beside myself!  Grrr!!

I just have this "thing" about breeding bitches from bitches that can't self whelp! 

Why would you purposely do this?  If a breed can't give birth, then let it die out naturally.  Yes, I know that I will get slated for that comment.  But we all have different opinions, and this forum does have regular healthy debates!  :-)

After my first litter, having kept a bitch, who had inertia just like mum (both spayed after my big mistake), I knew which road I wanted to go down.  I accept that there are times that, for some reason or another, a C-section is required, but I don't EVER mate a bitch that I even doubt can deliver naturally.

Yes, I've had malpresentations, and early this year I had a bitch with 2 pups, jammed side by side in the same uterine horn, so a section was imperative.  I didn't leave her contracting very long at all - I just "knew" things weren't right.  But both the vet and myself agree that her pelvis is wide enough to take that big head, and it was bad luck.  We could clearly see when we had her scanned, that it wasn't the size of the pups causing the problem.  (Still won't decide about a 2nd litter until next year though.)  I want to see how well her daughter turns out before I come to a decision about whether the quality is right.  There isn't much point in breeding otherwise.

I have been working on a self whelping line for years.  It's a long old haul when you have a breed that has such small litters.  But the satisfaction in getting there is worth it.  My last litter, from a bitch out of my own lines, was the easiest whelping that I ever had - I've seen stronger hiccups!  I couldn't believe how easily she delivered them.  It was the greatest feeling ever! 

I know people that say (and I know where they're coming from), that toy breeds carrying just one puppy, often don't have enough hormones to get them going.  But, in any singleton litters I've had, they have been self whelped.  But I do realise that some singletons do need a section, and we have no control over the size of litters.

Anyhow, I will continue to have bitches spayed if they are found too small.  I've mated large bitches (over the breed standard in size) that have needed a section as the vaginal canal was too narrow.  Any daughters go to pet homes, with breeding restrictions, and only on the condition that they are spayed after their first season.  My last girl, that self whelped, wasn't over breed standard for weight - so I still think that it is due to breeding from the right pelvis.

I stand corrected though if anyone gives me sound evidence that I am going down the wrong road.

> all C- sections for Pedigree breeds are now reported to the BVA by the vets

This is good to hear if all vets are on board and doing this.

My Caveat would be though that the reason for the C section should also be given.

I still don't know why Lexi had her section after delivering her first pup (third and last litter) naturally, in fact into my hands when going from garden to whelping box.

I didn't see the vet who performed her section when she had her check-up and forgot to ask him when the stitches came out, and I expect he has forgotten by now.  Must go in some time and ask.

> On this subject just thought that you might be interested that all C- sections for Pedigree breeds are now reported to the BVA by the vets , so that they can moniter all c sections for all the breeds concerned , ie bulldogs , pekes , chi, Frenchies etc.
> The reports are then forwarded to the KC for future ref to see if the Standard needs to be changed again, so that the health of the breed is first and formost.
>
> Peanuts

Have you got a link for this as i couldn't find it on the BVA site so rang the Kennel Club, they have no knowledge of this either and said its untrue. 

> The reports are then forwarded to the KC for future ref to see if the Standard needs to be changed again, so that the health of the breed is first and formost.

What are they going to do, tell the dog to give birth to a smaller head or develop a bigger 'Foo'.  sorry made me chuckle so thought i'd share.  Maybe they could tell the bull dogs and peekes to have GSD faces so that the head can come out easily.  and yes i do mean that in a joking way.

have not got a link for it i'm afraid was told this by a BVA chap who was at our at our local vets . .

Peanuts

That's a shame.  could have made interesting reading.

Is there a chance he could have been fibbing, especially if you were sat there with a dog.

> What are they going to do, tell the dog to give birth to a smaller head or develop a bigger 'Foo'

In a roundabout way yes.

Originally all these dogs gave birth naturally or would, have died (so would not have passed on the trait for over large heads compared to birth canals) as C sections were not available.

As we are able to perform surgery to save the lives of our bitches and pups it is then our responsibility to see if there was a physical inherited reason for the need and breed away from it, to a more functional build.

Perhaps the size allowance in toy breeds should be raised by say 20 - 25% (in reality many brood bitches are oversize anyway to be able to breed from them, should they not be in the ring with their more diminutive brethren?

I think though some breeds are always going to struggle, not necessarily needing a c-section: i agree should only be done if needed or in the interest of the bitch, some flater faced dogs will struggle to push the pup out, I know others can say why this is as i can't remember.

Do you think bulldogs would go back to their original form, they were bred for bull fighting so the flat face was made.  it would take sewveral generations to change the breed type back so the practice would still be there.  if I bred my peeke, this is a consideration and would research it as i don't think its fair to gauratee them an operation to satisfy me.  I have a more suitable breed for whelping (if it ever happens lol) which would reduce the panic a bit.  I know its no guantees but its reduced.

We need people like Jean who make sure her line does self whelp. 

> Perhaps the size allowance in toy breeds should be raised by say 20 - 25% (in reality many brood bitches are oversize anyway to be able to breed from them, should they not be in the ring with their more diminutive brethren?

Yes most of these could be kept out of the ring due to that, such a shame.

Agree entirely - my bitch's first litter was naturally born though only 2 puppies, one whimper and otherwise as easy as passing a stool. Second litter was only 1 puppy, virtually same size at birth but this time she did not start labour and had to have an elective C section 2 days after due date. I don't plan to breed from her again, but I wouldn't want to be labelled as having a non self whelping bitch when it was just the small litter presumably.

>>My Caveat would be though that the reason for the C section should also be given.

>>I still don't know why Lexi had her section after delivering her first pup (third and last litter) naturally, in fact into my hands when going from garden to whelping box.

> or develop a bigger 'Foo'. 

ROFLMAO!!!!!   :-)  :-)  :-)

I thought I was the only person in dogs that called it that!

Thanks for the chuckle!

> Perhaps the size allowance in toy breeds should be raised by say 20 - 25% (

Brainless - this is one area that has, at least in one breed, changed to my liking.  After the PDE programme if my memory serves me right!

The Chihuahua breed standard for weight was and still is 2-6lbs.  But the recommendation was for 2-4lbs, and the standard advised that if two dogs were equal in quality, then the more diminutive one was preferred.

This was changed - can't remember the date, but I guess around 20 months ago.  The preferred weight is now 4-6lbs.  Seems a step in the right direction, wouldn't you say?  :-)

definitely.