I bumped into an old friend the other day who has a year old (entire) springer bitch. I've never seen the dog before, but he's been doing a bit of gundog training so I said I'd go up to see him and bring some training videos along (not that they ever did me much good).

Anyway, from what he's said, he's been doing the usual stuff slowly and methodically, but reckons he wasn't getting far. The problem is the dog is totally hyperactive. I've never seen anything like it before. It's just gets so excited it's eyes literally go red and bulge. He says it's not too bad on it's own, but as soon as anything else happens, like someone else walks past while he's walking, or someone throws a dummy for their dog, this thing leaps about and will not respond to any commands at all. You really do have to see it to believe it, it's not being disobediant as such, it just seems to lose all control. It went mad when it met me, then quitened down a bit, but even out on a walk, if he makes silly noise like blowing a raspberry or something, the dogs just launches itself, tail wagging, eyes bulging. I feel really sorry for him as he's put a lot of effort in, and her excitement just seems to overrule it.

The vet just said 'it's a springer, what do you expect', and he's tried various foods, the current one being JW 21% protein. It's got a reasonable working pedigree, and has a lovely temperment. To my inexperienced eye, it seems like a really soft dog, and coming down hard on it doesn't seem to make things better, but it doesn't appear to be very affectionate to anyone. You go to stroke it and it just sort of turns away and has a sniff of the floor, not cowering or anything, just a real 'take it or leave it' attitude.

Anyone got any suggestions, as he's thinking about splashing out on a proper behaviourist, or maybe insisting the vet gives him something for hyperactivity (if there is such a thing) or speying. Failing that, he's thinking of giving it to the drug people/prison service as he's really not enjoying himself with it as it's hard work even as a pet, let alone a working dog. And I can vouch (?) for that, as after a bit of a walk, and a bit of dummy training I was exhausted. I tried the gentle approach, then the nasty, but when it got in this 'excited' state, you could do nothing with her.

Hi Dave

Personally i have only got a dog semmi trained for drugs work with the met police, the dog went on, to become a custom and excise dog at heathrow, anyway when your friend is training the dog, has he used just one toy to train the dog with or loads of different ones, if you use one toy the dog is usually so fixated with it that it will do anything to get the toy as a reward for doing well, i dont know much about gundog training, that is john and others on this boards expertise, but that is what i do when training with a gundog breed, they will probably be along later to give you some better advise, but they are hard work and well worth continuing with,
good luck to your friend Diane

Hi Dave,

The only suggestion I have is to cut the protein down again. If he gets the protein lower it may help reduce the hyperactivity. Dr John's silver is 18% as is some of the Burns food and Wilson's of Dundee original for working dogs.
HTH
Dot

Hi Dave - makes you appreciate your own doesn't it;) I kind of get the opposite reaction from people to Decoy - 'Ooo he is not like a 'normal' Springer is he, he is so quiet and calm' or worse still 'Isn't he small, is he a cross?' :( so you can't win either way!
Changing the feed may help, it may not be the protein level but something else in the food, I was going to suggest the additives in the food, but as James Wellbeloved is supposed to be additive free, it could even be the feed itself (ie the Lamb or Turkey that doesn't suit) It may be worth trying Burns food as this is a good holistic food even the preservatives are natural - although I think the protein is about 20 ish%.
I personally feel certain springers need extra stimulation mentally. There is one that lives up the road to us, she has a good working ped. but is purely a pet, the lady that owns her is in her 70's and has arthritis in her hip, but still walks that dog 5 times a day, and it is a really good walk each time (more than my lot get!), but she still is bouncing off the ceiling (so to speak) and it is definitely not down to lack of exercise - She springboards off the furniture. But when you approach her she is really really submissive and lies on her back and pees.She just seems to need something more than this lady can give her. I think with some Spaniels they need more mental stimulation and that even working in the field is just not enough for them, Perhaps contacting Customs/Home Office may be a good solution, I don't think it does anyone any good if they are not enjoying the dog anymore (for the dog especially), more so if the dog is supposed to work. Bare in mind this dog is still a puppy, at one year old, but I think you would know the difference between boisterous puppyish behaviour and when the dog is acting like a loony;) They (Home Office) are advertising locally (Kent) for gundogs between 6 month and 2 years I think. I reckon they'd take Decoy like a flash, he can seek out his ball from anywhere it is hidden! you can send him into a room to 'seek it on' and he will find it really quickly (wherever you hide it) I can hide it outside too and he hasn't failed once! Brag Brag:)! - I have a contact number if you should need it - email me if you do. It may well be worthwhile having a behavourial assessment done first! But if he got this spaniel with a view to work then even switching it onto a particular toy (like Decoy) to focus on won't help in my opinion. sorry if I babbled on (I always do) and haven't helped! Did you go home and give your girl an extra biscuit and sigh with relief:D!!!Julie:)

I agree it may well be an ingredient in the food, not necessarily the protein level.

Could try the new salmon and potato complete food from Wafcol i think it is.....but also it may take a few weeks to see a real difference. WAtch out too for titbits or treats as they may be causing an intolerance :)

I would try this to basically eliminate possible causes.

If the dog is normally OK, but just gets hyper when certain situations occur, it may not be food (but I still feel this is well worth trying in case).

I find it interesting that the dog is a softie but turns away and sniffs at the floor when you attempt to stroke it. It is a possibility that this is a displacement activity which would illustrate that the dog is basically unsure how to react. If this is how the dog feels generally about training, people, situations, etc....it could be that the most important thing is to get the dog confident.

My breed is not a gundog breed but the BSD; and they are very OTT in some situations. I train for working trials and agility with positive reinforcement only, and if she gets excited I slightly lower my expectations, chill, adjust my voice (she will balk at a cross voice) and so on. I may also end training, or show her what she WOULD have got had she complied (but always set her up to succeed if at all possible). It may be worth trying this approach, it's so bloomin' hard to put across on email but at the end of the day does mean oodles of patience in the training department ;)

I wish your friend luck, do let us know how things go :)

LIndsay

I faxed some details I found on the net on hyperactive dogs to my mate today as he is not on the internet.

He called me straight back, and identified with a number of 'symptoms', namely: his dog will circle in his run for maybe 10 minutes at a time, plus she does a sort of tail chasing thing, but not actually chasing it's tail, just turning really fast on the spot (I saw this when he fed her when we got back). Also he said she's difficult to physically restrain. When I sat down with the dog after she'd done this spinning thing in the kennel, I restrained her and held her close whilst stroking and talking really quietly to her, and after about 20 seconds of fighting it, she suddenly went all dopey, her tail started to wag and she looked like she actually enjoyed it (he calls me the dog whisperer now :) ). But as soon as I stopped she just pulled away and started leaping about again. She's also easily distracted by ordinary, common sounds and movements that normal dogs would quickly learn to ignore.

When I had my dog out with her, we were throwing a couple of dummies around, and she would just not sit still. She was up on her rear legs like a mear cat, whining and sqeaking, and you just couldn't distract her. We tried standing in front of her, so she shifted to look round me, clicking fingers in front of her and everything, but nothing registers. The other problem he has, is that when on her own, if she does something really well and he goes to praise her, she just gets all excited and fidgety again, and it all goes to pot. If he gets angry and want's her to stop doing something she shouldn't, then pretty much the same happens.

Strangly enough, when in her crate in the car, I stuck my fingers through the wire and she would muzzle up to the side getting the most attention possible. She certainly has no aggresive or dominant tendencies. In fact, she appeared generally bold and assertive, but at the same time stubborn and soft, if that's possible. I think he wants his vet to try Ritalin to at least rule the hyperkinesis out, and then take it from there. I'm not a great fan of drugs (apart from a bit of pot in my past, but I didn't inhale), but it seems that a small dose will quickly prove one way or the other.

He also said he's fed her Skinners maintenance (18% protien) before, but saw no difference. And he's had a couple of sessions with some local gundog people, one said she was useless and he might as well get rid!, and the other couldn't offer an explanation as to why she was just so excited by the whole thing, but said the excitement was stopping her from taking on board the training. I've seen 18 week old puppies get nowhere near as excited as her, and she been exactly the same since he got her at 8 weeks.

If she was a child or a person, I'd suspect Attention Deficit Disorder with Hyperactivity. Seriously, what you're describing is how my young brother-in-law was before they put him on needed meds. He would do a lot of ritualized motion, but would be constantly moving even when he didn't want to. :(
The meds did help him to learn to focus. Brilliant kid, but extremely easily distracted before. After, he could focus and calm himself down on his own without being physically confined...yeah, he was in bad shape at a very young age :(
He's better now since he hit puberty, but I don't know if he's still on the meds.

Ritalin works rather strangely. If it is not ADD-H, the individual reacts as if he/she is on high doses of caffeine. Jittery and worse than before. BUT if it is ADD-H, the med works to calm the person down. They've found this to be true of Caffeine with the same people. It will excite a regular individual, but cause the ADD to retreat. Almost that two negatives create some sort of positives.
Best wishes for your friend,
toodles

Hi Dave

This thread makes me smile :) I've had such a springer myself - a raving lunatic with seriously high drive!
Mine was completely OTT in just about everything. He never slowed down. I had to be careful where I exercised him as he used to shriek and scream with pure excitement racing about and occasionally people used to run out to look thinking that the dog was in serious distress or being abused or something. He would just tear about and then collapse in a panting heap for a few seconds and then be off again at a hundred miles an hour. I had to be careful that he didn't overheat in the summer and be quite restrictive with him at times.
He also wasn't particularly bothered about a fuss. If I was sitting in the garden he would jump on my lap and cuddle in for a few seconds and then off again to find something to do.
He lived outdoors! :) He was like that for years :D although I must add that it suited me for him to be like that, even if he was hard work, and I never wanted to diminish his drive in any way!! but just in case your mate is hoping that she'll grow out of it - that may not be the case!
Lara x

I'd be interested to know the address of the site about hyperactive Springers as i have one myself. Everyone who meets him says he lovely...but nuts. I must say he doesn't sound as bad as your friend's one though. This thread has cheered me up no end, I thought my dog was the only one :)

Springer mania, heres a couple of sites I looked. They're not springer specific, and are probably american, so please take that into account! http://www.pethealthcare.net/html/body_excitable_and_disobedient_dogs.html
http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/may97.html

Interestingly, when I called my vets today to arrange my dog's booster, I asked the receptionist if they have Ritalin. She asked in a rather brusque manner, where I got that name from. So I told her it was on the internet, and it was for hyper dogs. She reckoned they didn't, but had other products for hyper dogs. I think they must send vet receptionists on the same training as doctors receptionists :)

Thanks for the sites. Yeah, that course is called "How not to make friends and alienate people" (also known as Enter the Dragon).

Interesting! As others have suggested, I would definitely try a change of diet. Skinners is one that comes to mind. I must admit to only using it when I won a bag at a test but a number of people I know swear by it. Trouble is, manufactures do change the mix from time to time so just because a food used to be highly rated it does not mean that it’s still the same!

From reading your post, I sort of get the idea that the dog could be confused? Apprehensive? Not sure of the reception it is going to receive? This is quite common in a dog who wants to please.

A medical problem? Possibly! I’ve seen a few hyper dogs around including my old Beth who was epileptic. Don’t get me wrong, I have no reason to believe this is epilepsy but it could be a brain thing. I don’t know who to talk to about that these days. In days gone by it was Dr Phyllis Croft but I imagine she must be retired at the least by now. A neurological problem is only a wild guess on my part but as Sherlock Holmes once said, “When you have eliminated all probable causes, whatever’s left, no matter how improbable must be the answer!

Trying to diagnose a problem like this without seeing the dog is never easy and about the best that can be done is to try to give some ideas and hope that something rings a bell. Please let us know of any developments, I’m interested to know more about it.

Regards, John

John, it's interesting you say about confused and apprehensive, as I thought at times she was a bag of nerves, but not nervous in the usual sense ie. frightened/cowering/tail down etc. And this is the problem he's had with the training, as praise sends her dotty, and being firm does the same. And normally they want to work for your praise, which is hard to give in this case.

What really confuses me is she's reasonably steady if she's on her own, but as soon as anything even slightly more exciting (to her) happens, off she goes. Now I know that to youngish dogs the excitement level goes up, but hers goes up about 1000%. He goes to a local gundog club every month, so it's not like it's the first time she's ever seen other dogs, dummies being thrown around, or guns going off, but you wouldn't believe it to look at. You expect them to run in and have the odd excursion into the undergrowth for a bit of a free hunt, but not to the point where absolutely nothing will get her attention or stop her leaping about on the lead.

I think he's going to the vets next early next week to see if they can shed any light, as I think he's getting a bit fed up waiting for her to calm down, which of course is what everyone tells him to do.

You've seen her Dave and I accept from your posts that you have seen springers before and know what to expect so I accept what you say when you say it's excessive.

I've known dogs, my Beth for one who really did not like being handled. I could put my hand down and ruffle her ears but to position her with hands, no chance.

Changes in tactics can cause apprehension. A change from the sort to the hard approach (Or even back!). Anna would get into a state if I just spoke strict to her. Do you know if he is consistent in his approach to training and correction? This was one of the things I was wondering.

Praise often needs modifying to the needs od the dog. The quiet one needing quite boistrous praise to gee it while the excitable one, just a quiet "Good Girl".

At the end, if this has got no other explanation, then a referral to a neurologist might be the way to go. I don’t know where you/he lives but the college at Potters Bar or the AHT at Cambridge could possibly help.

Regards, John

I like your earlier reference to Sherlock Holmes, John: so true :)

I have had a friend years ago with a potty Springer, this dog was originally destined to be a working dog but was impossible, ran off hunting and was generally daft. She found training this dog hard graft, as the praise sent her up into the roof.

I am wondering if conditioning her to a clicker may be an idea? It's just a thought, as this may get through to her that yes, this is right, and uet just may not send her over the edge. I know clickers are not very often used in gundog work, because the dogs are supposed to work for praise alone as I understand it, but I do know a few who do use them and like the result.

There is evidence too, that the clicker works on the ancient part of the brain, I believe it is called the amygdala and is involved with the limbic system (?) (but may well be totally wrong about the name). So it gives an impression of a very deep response. Sorry am I making any sense! I'm not explaining it very well.

I am sure I read about this on a clicker site, maybe if you are able to do a search it may be interesting if nothing else.

My feelings tend to concur with John, in that the dog may be apprehensive and yet cannot contain itself .... I can just imagine this.

NOt an easy problem :)

LIndsay

I think Lindsay has come up with a really good idea, clicker, that way she will get the praise and therefore know when she is doing the right thing and learn what is required of her, without sending her over the top with excitement using a totally hands off approach. Julie:)

As you know Lindsay, I don't use a clicker but a friend of mine does and during the summer won two gundog working tests in two weeks! Not a bad recomendation!

Regards, John

HI John

Yes in fact I remember you saying! :)

I have a friend with Tollers who also uses the clicker for gundog training and is very pleased. I know it's not everyone' s cup of tea, I hated it at first, couldn't see the point, but now i am glad i persevered with it. In fact now, I wouldn't be without it :)

LIndsay

Well the latest is, he took her to the vets yesterday but they refused to do any tests for hyperactivity using drugs, and ran off a whole list of side effects as a good reason not to. Instead, they referred him to Roger Mugford down in Chertsey, and said that as a vet himself, he would be in a position to prescribe if he thought necessary. So he's booked her in for a 2 hour session late January (at no small cost).

I told him he might bump into Princess Anne while he's there, and if so, don't ride a bike near her dogs :)

Forgot to add, the vet told him JW food is gluten free, and it appears from their website that it is. They don't actually say so, but do say that it doesn't contain wheat or other ingredients that can cause gluten related problems. Learn something new everyday.

Let us know what happens, Dave :)

Roger Mugford is meant to be good but dog training is never prescriptive, and there's no magic pill, not that your friend is asking for one as he seems to be trying very hard to sort it all out. I do hope it works out well for him and the Springer :)

Lindsay

Can I suggest it may be a good idea to put the dummies away and not progress any further than basic work (sit, stay) until he has more of a control over the dog. I have a mad springer and a nutty cocker too. "Back to basics" training is always a good idea once you encounter a problem.

Good luck.

My own thoughts Dave are that I would rather have seen a neurologist than a behaviourist in the first instance. My thought would be to eliminate a brain thing first. Some years ago I made the mistake of thinking a dog at our club had a behaviour problem and recommended the owner accordingly. The dog, a GSP, was from rescue so there was no long term history to go on. Some weeks later the condition worsened and a vet examination revealed a brain tumour. I have always regretted getting that wrong, there was nothing I could have done but the poor dog could have been treated earlier.

I am not suggesting for one minute that this is the problem here, it has no similarities in any respect but it has made me seek a medical reason early on in any case these days. Unfortunately, to get to a neurologist he must get a referral from his vet and if he won’t give one then . . . . .

Regards, John

Well he's kind of given up on the training for the time being through frustration. He's just hoping that maybe he can get a bit more of an understanding of whats going on (if possible), then decide where to go from there. If it's possible then to get some training into her, starting again from basics, then he will. If she's just plain crazy, then he'll have to make a decision whether or not to just keep her as a pet and let her charge around or do something else. I fear that he may never get her to like him, as it were, therefore it will always be an uphill struggle, as if they're not interested in the handler, then maybe they'll never be interested in doing anything for the handler.

I really feel for him, as he seems to have done everything right, no charging around or free hunting, plenty of socialisation, doing all the basics, and it all falls apart at the seams with the slightest provocation.

She may not be interested in working for the handler as such, but if your friend can push the right buttons and channel her incentive/rewards in the right direction, then she may work well 'despite' her handler rather than 'for' him but with the same end result.