If judging at a Champshow it is my understanding that a judge cannot enter one of their own dogs at the show if it is owned by them or shown by someone who is named under their affix. Is that correct?

No, for example a show like SKC.

On the Judging FAQ page of the KC site it says:

"Q.   I am due to judge Boxers in the morning at a forthcoming show, however I also own Bullmastiffs which are being judged in the afternoon.  Can I exhibit my Bullmastiff at the show?
A.   No, it is not permissible to judge and exhibit at the same show, regardless of the breed.

(Sorry that my previous post vanished - I hit Delete rather than Edit!)

Hmm that is what i thought but it does seem to have happened at SKC a judge judgeing one breed and winning a CC in another with a dog owned by them being handled by their daughter!!!!!!

Justified grounds for an official complaint, I'd have thought.

i think it will be just one of many.

It is my understanding that a dog owned by you or in partnership can not be shown at a show you are judging at - IMO there should be a complaint. After all if you wish to show you do not accept the appointment and if you do you do not show.

Does anyone know the reason for this rule though?

I really can't see why someone judging one breed cannot have their dogs of another breed shown, could even be on a different day.  Obviously if your judging that group or BIS then I can see the reasoning, but otherwise why???

LOL Barbara, I can not understand a lot of the KCs Rules & Regs only that it is best to obey them.

Suppose it may be to stop two judges colluding - they would or could be accused of saying if you put mine up I'll do the same for you - OK unlikely but you know how people are quick to think the judging is dishonest so I guess they are trying to reduce that. What is true is that at coffee before the judging starts there are little groups of judges talking about who knows what (not being a member of the clique I don't know) but it could be grounds for thinking that they were discussing what they are showing and who was doing the showing and even what they are wearing. So to ban judges from showing would stop this suspicion.

but that is more likely if exhibitors in a breed are allowed to judge, far less likely interbreed. 

I judged SWD's last year, I own the Pomeranian's with my mum.  Mum wanted to show but she couldn't due to me judging, even though I did not know the Pom judge etc.  Was quite annoying really especially when no SWD's turned up!

>but that is more likely if exhibitors in a breed are allowed to judge, far less likely interbreed. 
  />

TBH I think it is more a networking thing than the breed you have but I could be wrong I am not on the inside having more interest in my breed and the group than in other judges, I am not a known face so I have no idea what they find to talk about may well be their last trip abroad, it's just a clique thing nothing to do with individual breeds.

I heard a certain judge was staying with an exhibitor over the weekend and went and gave her many firsts BOB DCC and BPIB!

In many breeds it would be impossible not to be friends with the breed specialist judges, you may even travel together or accommodate them.

Should they put your dogs down because any of the above apply???

Think the best way is to be above suspicion and to be seen to be above suspicion. Being friendly with members of your own breed to stay with them or travel with them is not a problem but not on the day you are judging, if you do you may be accused as described above.

If you enter under a friend then you accept what ever their decision is you do not expect nor in most cases will you get preferential treatment.

>I heard a certain judge was staying with an exhibitor over the weekend and went and gave her many firsts BOB DCC and BPIB!



It is, of course, entirely possible this was the best exhibit there - however I would say the judge was laying themselves open to the sort of gossip you are reporting and that is stupid, it does their reputation no good and is not fair of the exhibit that may have been totally entitled to his wins.

Quite agree, it is foolish to leave yourself open to criticism, and once it is know someone in your breed is to judge they and others tend to be a bit more careful not to discuss the dogs etc.

It probably makes sense not to enter under a breed judges for a few shows before your own appointment so as not to give anyone a chance to say you hoped to win under them and they would win under you - have to say I have never heard this in our breed Barbara but I have in others.

This works the other way round too...
A well known old time judge(judged crufts level) always said he will not give first to my friends dogs as he does not wish to start people talking it was because of their friendship.
He liked her dogs (as they had similar lines) but never did he put her dogs first in their classes if she was entered under him.
Not sure what was the point in entering under him, maybe it was just for the day out :).

Think to deny a good dog an award because of it's owner is as wrong and giving an award because of the owner.

Personally I find I have to concentrate so hard that I am unaware who is handling although I do recognise some of the dogs, others must have far better skills than I if they are able to take in the handler as well as the exhibit.

I agree with you Nova...
That is why I did not really see point in entering under him as the judging was not going to be fair even if it was the other way to what people usually think e.g. dog not getting a placing it might have deserved...
Saying that the breed has very big classes so I suppose it was easy to put up another good dog as there must be few good ones in the large classes...

I was wondering if this applies when  people  have seperate intrests in an affix rather than jointly owning an affix ?
Editted to add not saying this applies here but was just curious

In reply to Noora

Think it is stupid to even state such a thing, why would say you never award a friends exhibit, if you are worried you would ask your friends not to enter under you. Most judges would be careful to keep their opinions of others exhibits very lose and general and even try never to say your preference for one type over another although I know I am sometimes guilty of that - however ones preferences become obvious if someone watches you judge or reads your critiques. I am really pleased to find a nice dog of good type in my entry and I could not care less to whom it belongs.

Thank you to all for your input, the judge in question has now been reported to the KC as there were other matters arising from their judging that have raised complaints from other exhibitors, most probably their ignorance and rudeness to people who entered under them.

I was wondering if this applies when  people  have seperate intrests in an affix rather than jointly owning an affix ?
Editted to add not saying this applies here but was just curious

Not sure, don't even know if it is the affix that is a problem or just a dog owned or part owned by you - obviously a dog carrying your affix could be shown under another judge although not under you as dogs can't be shown under it's breeder, but it can be shown under the stud dog owner. Good thing really as in a breed like mine some judges would be very hard put to get an entry at all if the rules about who you can't show under were extended.

Keep us posted Richard, it is interesting to know about how one falls foul of the KC - sometimes it seems a case of there but for the grace of God, but in the case of bad manners you have only yourself to blame.

You are quite correct that you cannot do it.

One reason was to stop you influencing the other breed judge when partaking of hospitality provided by the show.  Whilst we would all like to believe all judges are honest, knowledgeable and have good proven ability, we all also know this is not true <wry grin>

In the last few years there have been cases of constant ownership of dog changes to allow dogs to be shown at a show where an Owner (now a prior owner if you see what I mean) is judging other breed(s). Or major Judges with top winning dogs having them in partners name only -they still live with the dog for heaven sake

A family I know quite well are busy climbing the judges ladder at the moment and swapping dogs including using other family names to allow them to judge and show at the same events - I do hope the KC clamp down soon - certainly should bring in a living with rule

Putting a friend's dog down is as bad as putting one up! Luckily my only friend who judges is so fair that even when she was a fellow exhibitor at shows where I was showing the dog she bred, she would sometimes say she wouldn't have given him that class, or she preferred another dog. And conversely, I know she doesn't much like my bitch, particularly her head, but entered her under her anyway to help give her a decent size entry, and was more thrilled with the 3rd out of 7 we got due to her shape and movement than I have been with many higher awards as this friend's opinion is so highly valued by me. I can't wait for her to see my new puppy!

To true you should be able to trust your friends to be honest with you and your exhibits but if your friend asks that you do not enter under them well then you should not. It is a difficult situation and each friendship will have it's limits of trust only you and the judge friend will know what that is.

Sarah we have the exact same thing in our breed at present with a couple of exhibitors swapping ownership of dogs into other family member's names so that dog can be exhibited at the shows where a judge was originally down as owner only a month before the show!

We have a judge giving CC/RCC/BOB to someone they co-own with and share an affix.  Ditto a judge giving CC/BOB to dogs bred by their partner as a co-breeder with someone else.  Ditto nephew as judge gives same awards to uncle.  Judge giving CC/BOB to exhibitor they travel to every show with and hold and groom the dogs at the shows for the exhibitor.  Same exhibitor - 2 foreign judges in a year, each time they spend a few days before and some after staying at their house, even travelling to the show they are judging at in the exhibitors vehicle.

Is it any wonder when these people judge now they draw less than 1/4 the normal entry for our breed?  When will the KC take action?

Harkback, does anyone report these 'goings-on' to the KC? You cannot judge a dog you have owned within the 12 months previous to the appointment, similarly grooming a dog at a show counts as 'preparing for show' and also falls within the 12 month bracket. These cheaters need to be stopped.

As you say Crinklecut you would think the KC would notice someone swapping a dog back and forward with the 12 month rule this would be pointless but if they are judging within a month of the exchange it definitely needs to be reported.

The other explanation may be with the printers who could well have entered the wrong owner as PCs have to be told that things change and it is surprising how many of these changes slip the net.

Richard are you referring to who I think you are referring too? ;)

> Does anyone know the reason for this rule though?
>

I don't know the reason but guessing that possibly:
Mrs A owns breed A but is judging breed B
Mrs B owns Breed B but is judging breed A

Sooooooo Mrs A & Mrs B could get Mr C & Mr D to handle their dogs, Mrs A gives Mrs B's dog the CC handled by Mr C and Mrs B gives Mrs A's dog the CC handled by Mr D.
Of course that is very corrupt BUT could happen, hope that makes sence..........kinda of does to me.

but surely this can still happen with different shows, and is more likely if you have the same breed. 

With that logic no judge should show at all ever, or only be allowed to judge breeds they do not exhibit.

We would end up with no breed specialist judges at all.

> With that logic

We are talking about the kennel club here brainless...............logic doesn't come into it with them ha ha ;)

We would end up with no breed specialist judges at all.

Things seem to be moving that way anyway, shows seem to appoint far more all rounders than they used and the KC is pushing judges through the JDP it would seem that the role of the breed clubs will diminish as the need for breed judges reduces.

Things seem to be moving that way anyway, shows seem to appoint far more all rounders than they used Wished it was the same in my breed. I like to see a 50/50 mix in the judges over the year.  We have very few alrounders the next year or two.

Have to say I prefer breed specialists at least they do not make silly remarks or complain the breed lacks a feature that they are not supposed to have anyway. 

I prefer breed specialists as well. I find the allrounders often go for the latest trend (this may be all that is shown under them, and so they will believe this is what the breed should be like) and they can even be the indirect cause of a breed changing its looks (and even temperament) quite a lot. The breed specialists will speak out when a breed is going the wrong way as they know it much better.

Sure some know a breed well but some do not, remember being in puppy dog and the first to the judge for assessment, judge put hands on my puppy and said "Oh! Aren't they hairy" - I lost faith there and then.

EDIT: have a horrid feeling that we are way off topic because I can not now remember what it was about :-O

On the reverse of that it is not unknown for trends to be seen in many breeds, I think often allrounder judge can often spot this.     I have to say the terrier allrounders seem to be very good and have generally quite good reputations.. perhaps it varies from group to group..

Think it is a matter of how much information the human brain can hold, there are judges, lots of them that know a good dog from a bad one but that is not enough you need a judges that knows the detail of your breed. IMO even those exceptionally gifted can't hold the information of a couple of dozen breeds in their head and if they can't how can they do a useful and helpful job of judging that breed, adequate probably but they are not able to notice when a breed is developing traits that are uncharacteristic.

You do not expect the Group or BIS judge to have intimate information & knowledge of every breed, that is the job of the Breed Judge. The Group/BIS judge will judge on general construction, movement and ring presence, the Breed judge on intimate knowledge of the breed.

At least that is the way I would like to see it but I am still of the opinion that showing a dog is part of keeping the breed true to it's past and purpose whilst ironing out any problems of health or construction. Simply putting up the same dog as before is not good enough each and every judge should be making a personal choice based on the personal knowledge of the breed, it's history, purpose and function.

I've just watched a lot of the Masterclass shows on DogWorld TV. I have to say that Frank Kane came across very well and he made a point which I think comes into this topic.

He basically said that a breed judge, whether an all rounder or not is the starting point as to whether a breed changes or not. He stated that when judging a breed you should be looking at the dog compared to the standard and not what is a showman who would do well in the group ring. He said he has seen many a dog get put up as it is a showy dog(not due to the dogs actual merits), this is how breeds tend to change.
He said that judges need to be true to the standard and look beyond what is a showy/flashy dog and what the dog really is. I do think he has a point.
He then said that its then down to the group stages as to what does well, but to start breed judging on what you think would do well in the group is not good and many judges fall foul of this.

There needs to be checks and balances in breeds or the purists will take the breed down a direction which suits them.
An example.... the Cavalier standards clearly states "Blenheims  Rich chestnut markings well broken up, on pearly white ground" yet many breeders state clearly they prefer a blanketed dog - the darker the better. Some go as far as to say that a dog cant be too heavily marked for them.
The standard is not theirs to alter on their whim and allrounders, although taking a more concrete approach, keep the breed coming back to the middle line in my opinion.

In most breeds an influential kennel can (and has), changed the look of a breed in a couple of generations because breeders admired those changes...all rounders see the bigger picture in the main.

I agree a breed should be judges against it's standard but to do that the judge must know the standard and be able to interpret it in an informed way.

Hi Jackie,

I agree that all judges should know the standard inside out - but surely a breeder/judge who changes their interpretation of that standard to suit their own ends, and who breeds their own 'type' and judges every exhibit against that, is every bit as bad as an ill-informed all rounder?

Think it is a matter of how much information the human brain can hold, there are judges, lots of them that know a good dog from a bad one but that is not enough you need a judges that knows the detail of your breed. IMO even those exceptionally gifted can't hold the information of a couple of dozen breeds in their head      I personally don't see why someone can't be experienced in a lot of things.  A few of breeds are very similar bar a few things so I think there is room for the multi expereinced who can remember the differences.   Not quite the same but look at a very good dog groomer.   

You do not expect the Group or BIS judge to have intimate information & knowledge of every breed, that is the job of the Breed Judge. The Group/BIS judge will judge on general construction, movement and ring presence, the Breed judge on intimate knowledge of the breed.
Totally...but say for example a breed get caught up in for example the head shape and size  ( it has been known to happen) but then short upper arms creep in..  I think allrounders tend to or can spot the negative trends.  JMHO..

Simply putting up the same dog as before is not good enough each and every judge should be making a personal choice based on the personal knowledge of the breed, it's history, purpose and function.   Can't honestly say I have seen this happening within my own breed when allrounders judge. We generally get a bit of a mix each time. Often a welcomed one :-D

I guess it can vary from breed to breed and group to group.

How often do you hear people say, " that dog is ....affix.....breeding"  whilst that at times may be a compliment should that really happen?

I agree that all judges should know the standard inside out - but surely a breeder/judge who changes their interpretation of that standard to suit their own ends, and who breeds their own 'type' and judges every exhibit against that, is every bit as bad as an ill-informed all rounder?

It is to be expected that any judge will like the type they breed would be very odd if this were not so but that is their interpretation and next weeks judge will or may see things different at least they are not looking for things that should not be there or praising something that is totally wrong for the breed.