Hi guys

Just stumbled across this forum tonight while trying to google for some information on showing dogs in the UK. After a few hours searching I haven't managed to find any definitive answers so I'm hoping that someone on here might be able to help put me straight.

Myself and my wife are thinking about popping over to relations of hours just before Christmas, so as we show in Ireland we were thinking it might be fun to enter a show in the UK while we were there. Judging by upcoming events and everything else, then it looks like we might be over towards the start of December, and thus will be around for the Championship show in Birmingham on Saturday 11th December.

Now I know we need to register with the English KC in order to be able to compete, but where we're really getting confused is with what class we should enter? We'd probably only be bringing the 1 bitch over with us, who's currently 18 months old so will be 21months old on the date of the show. She's not a champion, never won a CACIB, but has won a couple of Green Stars over here.

Over here its pretty straight-forward as regards what class to enter since most are based on the age of the dog, with some slightly overlapping others. But I'm totally confused looking at the UK classes.

Can anyone advise what would be the best class for her to be entered into for her first UK show?

Thanks in advance.

What breed?  I think maybe post grad class.  |Rreally depends on the breed and what classes you have.

If you have a yearling class you will be OK for that, if not, because of the two green stars, I think you can only do limit or open.I don't show in Ireland so am not 100% sure, but I am sure someone more knowledgable on the subject should answer you soon.

Papillon.

Show is offering CC's too.

From what I can see, excluding puppy classes, we're left with the choice of Yearling, Post Grad, Limit & Open classes.

If the show offers yearling in your breed go for that class.  It includes dogs up to 24 months, and entry into that class doesn't take into account previous wins.  (So you could win a CACIB before entries close for this show and still be in the correct class.)

Also if you win 1st, 2nd or 3rd in this class you qualify for Crufts 2011 if you haven't already done so.

Thanks Henrieke :)

CACIB - the stuff of dreams! :D

As for Crufts - sadly we only have the 1 annual show over here for qualifying, which we didn't manage this year. Extra opportunity would always be nice, but I've a feeling (from what I've been reading) that there's a very healthy entry for Pap's in the UK so I think that if we do go ahead with it it will primarily be for education & fun. Would be nice to see how we measure up, but really wouldn't be even hoping to get placed based on some of the stunning dogs in the UK.

We'll go for fun, and anything after that is just a bonus ;)

The schedule is here: http://www.highampress.co.uk/bcity.pdf and entry form: http://www.highampress.co.uk/cityform.PDF

In definition of classes it says: In the following Definitions, a Challenge Certificate includes any award that counts towards the title of Champion under the rules of
any governing body recognised by the Kennel Club.

So if your dog has green stars it cannot go in the Post graduate class (as you ahve awards that count towards a champion title), also you can go in age appropriate classes of Limit or above to Open.

Pap classes are:
PAPILLON First Entry £24 Judge Dr A G Schemel
Kennel Club Challenge Certificate--Dog Kennel Club Challenge Certificate--Bitch
Kennel Club Breeders Competition Best Breeder in Breed Award
499VD 500MPD 501PD 502JD 503GD 504PGD 505LD 506OD 507 GCD
508 VB 509 MPB 510 PB 511 JB 512 GB 513 PGB 514 LB 515 OB 516 GCB

Ut-oh - now I'm getting confused.

So does this mean we can or can't enter in Yearling as suggested by henrieke?

Just clicked your links and realised its not the show I was referring to. We're considering the Ladies Kennel Association Chamiponship Dog Show 2010 on December 11th - http://www.highampress.co.uk/lka.pdf

You CAN go in yearling as there is no restriction on the number of awards previously awarded to a dog.  You CANNOT go in anything else except LIMIT & OPEN as Green Stars count towards a Ch title and therefore are classified as a CC equivalent by the Kennel Club here.

Looking at the ATC page on the KC web site it says Irish exhibtors now only need to complete an Import Application Form.  As an Irish exhibitor you used to need to apply to the KC here for an ATC (Authority to compete) number but I think that has changed to just the Import Application but best to phone the KC on Tuesday to clarify as the rules cahnge every few months!.  I would do this pretty quick as ATC's take ages to come through and you would need to have it before entering a show.  http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2757

Think the confusion is that you are talking of LKA (Ladies Kennel Association) and Brainless thought you meant Birmingham City but you said the show at Birmingham not the Birmingham Show.

One must remember that if you are comming in outside the UK you need a petpassport a AKC number and maybe a rabies vacc with a wait of 6 months, so if you havent done this you may be too late to enter.

Not from Ireland, triona. ;-)

> outside the UK you need a pet passport

Not when coming from Ireland you don't need one.

I'd be putting your Pap in Yearling, unless you feel they look very mature for their age.

Is Yearling a qualifying class, though? I know that the OP said it'd mainly be for education and fun, but qualifying ascwell would be a bonus! What size are the Pap classes usually at LKA?

I was assuming that it was a qualifying class after Henrieke put it on a post further up. I know in my breed its not a qualifying class for Crufts(or it wasn't)
http://www.crufts.org.uk/crufts-2011-qualification
This appears that any breed in yearling qualifies? I thought it was all sorted into bands? I know banding makes a difference in gainging stud book number

It looks as though Yearling is now a qualifying class (thanks for the link!) so yes, I'd definitely enter that as opposed to one of the adult classes. :-)

I've just had a look at and classes are fairly large.

http://www.highampress.co.uk/lka/papillon.asp?show=LKA 2009&ttl=LKA 2009%20-%20Papillon

I had to double check qualification through yearling as well.  I used to be in CKCS in which case it did qualify you, but not in my current breed.  Now however it appears any breed can qualify with 1st-3rd in yearling.

And to the OP, yes pap classes are big here, but it all adds to the excitement of showing abroad.  To see how your little one measures up, and also to possibly see if there are any blood lines here that take your fancy.  I am showing abroad for the first time at the end of the year and will go from an average class size of 7 to 60!  Still cant wait though!

And as for Crufts, if you do qualify and cant make it, well at least you can tell your friends back home your dog has proved themselves good enough to make it!

Confusing, Yearling is a qualifier but Special yearling is not.

Ireland still counts as the UK so I meant if the OP was from further afield

Southern Ireland is most definitely not UK. :) The pets passports rules tend to say UK and Ireland.

As for Crufts - sadly we only have the 1 annual show over here for qualifying, which we didn't manage this year

It says in this year's Crufts schedule that in Ireland there are 7 qualifying shows?

>Ireland still counts as the UK so I meant if the OP was from further afield

The OP is in Ireland.

>Confusing, Yearling is a qualifier but Special yearling is not.

Unless it's a class actually at Crufts, no 'Special' classes are qualifiers.

That is true JG - the new Yearling class caused loads of confusion at first even my printer got it wrong also with the Yearling class the age is set at 12 to 24 months where as our Special Yearling classes are 6 to 24 months useful if the breed has no puppy or junior classes.

Yearling is also interesting in being the only class that puppies can't be shown in.

You can enter age appropriate classes if they are on offer, there is a Yearling class for the breed at LKA, don't know how I brought up the wrong shows link duh.

I would enter the Limit class too if your hoping to qualify for Crufts, gives you two chances to qualify for the extra class fee, and also gives you more idea how your exhibit rates against differing levels of competition.

Entering the two classes is a good idea because you could be up against champions in the Yearling class where you know you will not in Limit.

Thanks everyone for all the replies - a wealth of information :)

@ harback - we no longer need the ATC number, just the import form 4 to fill in as far as I'm aware and from talking to others over here.

@ suejaw - I wouldn't consider her to be very mature looking, and of course being a female she could come into season and drop her coat in the meantime too :D

@ Jeangenie - yup, qualifying for Crufts would be an amazing bonus, but we're pretty realistic about that being a long-shot. I know there's typically a good entry in all the pap classes, so it will be fun to simply see how we fare in the tougher competition.

@ henrieke - yes, would be good to see how she stacks up.

@ MarianneB - I think the 7 shows are the different groups. There was definitely only the one show for Group 9 over here this year (majority of breeds that would fall into the Toy & Companion category in the UK) and sadly we placed 2nd in Junior on that occasion where only the best junior of each sex and the 2 green star winners qualified for Crufts 2011

@ brainless & nova - are you allowed double class entries in the UK? What is the point? Or are CC's only awarded to dogs from certain classes? Over here the Green Star challenge is between all those dogs who have won their classes with the top grade (excellent, or in the case of a puppy class - very promising) - is it not the same procedure for CC's? I know for sure that we're only allowed enter the 1 breed class over here with each dog.

You qualify for Crufts by winning a place in specified classes (1,2,or 3) so you could not be placed in the first class but get a second in your second and therefore qualify for Crufts. When it comes to the challenge only the winner of each class is sure to be called into the ring, if you are lucky enough to win two classes then there is one less in the challenge but I do not suppose you are worried about winning a CC.

In the UK you can enter any class you are eligible for so you sometimes see beginners entering every class - not something I would advise.

Last year at LKA the entries were:  in Class 940 YB (14 Entries) Abs: 4,
Class 942 LB (16 Entries) Abs: 4

I like to enter a puppy in both puppy and junior when the pup is nearly ready to move up, to see how they will fare against older competition.  Same when we nearly have to move up a class I like to test the water.

With a young exhibit and low entry numbers in the low classes in our breed it helps to have the exhibit in more than one class to have some more competition and gain experience for the exhibit.  Also trying to gain points for a Junior Warrant, as there have to be 3 in the class to gain points your more likely to have more exhibits and get points from a higher class.

Sometimes your dog can show badly in the first class, but settle by the second and earn a place even if unplaced or lower placed in the earlier one.

In my breed it is common to enter lots of eligible classes at club shows.

With my very first CC my exhibit had won all five of the classes entered, then our first CC and RBIS.  It meant there were far fewer exhibits in the challenge.

@ Nova - you're bang on the money - a CC is definitely not something we'd be worrying about right now. Even if we were blessed with one, I think it would be some time before we could afford to make the journey over again, so it really isn't something we'll be giving too much thought to for now.

@ Brainless - I can see your point alright about gaining experience in a low number breed. I have a question though (yes, another one) - if your exhibit had been beaten in any of the 5 classes, would it still have been allowed to challenge for the CC even though it then wouldn't have been an unbeaten dog?

No, but if it was beaten then it wouldn't' have got the CC anyway, so just saved going in again, but I had the satisfaction of beating a variety of more competition, so gettign a better idea of my exhibits overall quality.

Dear me...reading this makes everything sound so complicated...:-)
I've entered my boy in two IKC shows so far and when I read stuff like this it is a wonder I even got that far...I know under the surface it is simpler but having to explain things makes entering a dog show sound very difficult....it is a wonder with all the rule twists and turns that anyone gets to be a Champion....My boy is in the Belfast Champ show in Sept with no CC's available...so does he still get qualified for Crufts if he gets 1st 2nd or 3rd? I've been told he will but not so sure now..

Cheers

It sounds more complicated than it is (I have difficulty understanding your system). As to the Crufts qualifying at a show where you do not have CCs on offer I think the answer is no - but I could be wrong as I have not checked the rules for next years Crufts.

I have gone to the link posted above and had a read....if I understand he would qualify even though CCs are not on offer....I am copying the part I am talking about and you (if you don't mind ) can have a look and see....I would like him to qualify but as he is dual registered for IKC and KC..It is easier for me to concentrate on the Irish shows...then try for the UK ones...so I'll not be too upset...:-)

Anyway here is the bit from Crufts site (about halfway down):

DFS CRUFTS 2011 QUALIFICATIONS FOR ENTRY OF DOGS
b.    ENTRY IN BREED CLASSES AT CRUFTS 2011 WHERE CHALLENGE CERTIFICATES ARE NOT OFFERED.

A dog is eligible for entry in breed classes where Challenge Certificates are not offered if it has qualified in any of the following ways under the Rules and Regulations of the Kennel Club.

(1)    If it has been declared Best of Sex or Reserve Best of Sex of a
Breed or gained any of the following Prizes in Breed or Variety Classes at a Championship Show, including Crufts between 8 January 2010 and 7 January 2011.

i.    First, Second or Third in Minor Puppy Class
ii.    First, Second or Third in Puppy Class
iii.    First, Second or Third in Junior Class
iv.    First, Second or Third in Post Graduate Class
v.    First, Second or Third in Limit Class
vi.    First, Second or Third in Open Class
vii.    First, Second or Third in Veteran Class

(See note 2.)

(2)    If it has won a first prize in any breed class at Crufts 2010.  (NB This is in addition to those dogs which have qualified in classes listed under 2 b (1) above)

(3)        Premier Open Show
For dogs that have been declared Best of Breed provided there were more than three breed classes (more than five classes for Stud Book Band E breeds) scheduled for the breed.

(4)    If it has won Best in Show, Reserve Best in Show or Best Puppy in Show at a General or Group Open Show held between 8 January 2010 and 7 January 2011.

Cheers..
He has one Green Star already and is entered into Belfast under Open Dog.

Freewayz,

I think that needs to be double checked as I read it if your breed doesn't have CC's at all,ever...
My breed have CC's and if I attend a show which doesn't have them on offer, say Bath for next year I couldn't qualify him in the breed classes.

So confusing...it should be more straight forward...:-(
It seems like each person you ask has a different answer and still I'm none the wiser...also since I don't really understand it in the first place reading what is on the KC website will do nothing but to make it worse...:-)

Humm will have to see what Irish shows are left for him to try his luck if you are right...

Some one needs to write a book....Dog Showing for Dummies....easy peasy layman's terms and every thing you ever needed to know but don't...lol :-)

Unfortunately the qualification can change from one year to the next. Will go to look at the web page and see what I think.

Sorry too late to add to post above.

Think this applies to wins in Eire

10)     IRELAND - Winners of Junior Dog and Junior Bitch plus Best Adult Dog  and Best Adult Bitch from the seven Irish Kennel Club Group Championship Shows.

Otherwise I read the part you quote as referring to breeds at Crufts who do not have CCs not at the qualifying shows. But I could be wrong.

Freewayz which breed are we talking about?

Do they have CC's at Crufts?

> Otherwise I read the part you quote as referring to breeds at Crufts who do not have CCs not at the qualifying shows. But I could be wrong.

No Jackie you aren't wrong those are the qualifications for breeds without CC's

Thanks Satincollie at my age you get used to being wrong :-)

Think the breed is Papillon so they would have CCs

My boy is Aussie...and I am sure they have CCs at Crufts...

I was just on the IKC website and it seems although there are 7 shows to qualify there is only one show where any group may qualify....

For example Aussies are group 1 and it seems the show for them was Belgian Shepherd Dog Club Of Ireland 29th May 2010..then they go on to list the dates for the other groups... So I guess we may be out this time....and I was so excited....Ah well :-)

Right then unfortunately he won't qualify from Belfast champshow then as yes you are right Australian Shepherds do have CC's .
Sorry I can't answer your question about Irish shows.
Editted to add this is an information exchange so asking questions when you are unsure of things is not being ignorant it is part and parcel of learning and sharing and what this site should be about. :-)

just edited my above post..:-) was doing some digging myself and I think I've read the Irish site properly...

Can he qualify at LKA?

He can qualify at shows that are awarding CC's for the breed and as LKA is then yes he would qualify there if he gained 1st 2nd or 3rd in the appropriate class.

Don't think there are CCs on offer for Aussies at LKA ... just off to check.

ETA - Oh I was wrong. There are CCs for Aussies at LKA. Might take my youngster along :)

LOL I did that before I posted  ;-)

Is there a site that tells you which shows have CCs for any given breed? so people know in advance and not have to wait for schedules? or do they have to see numbers before they decide?

Most breed clubs list the shows that have CC's for the breed in their journals. 

Also the Dog World and Our dogs annuals always have a table with the CC's at General champ shows, and list how many breed club shows also have CC's.