Good afternoon,

I am pretty new to this site so I apologise now if I get anything wrong.  I am a staffie & Labrador owner who has never had the bottle or the inclination to breed a litter, but I greatly admire anyone who does, so hats off to you all.

I am writing on behalf of my sister who has just had the most horrific experience breeding her little Pug 'Lola'.  My sister has prepared for this litter like a military manouvre!  She brought her dog from the best breeder she could find, she joined the Pug club of great britain and has spent 2 years reading up and learning everything she thought she would need to know.  She entered Lola in a few local open level shows and gained a first and second place ribbon - all was looking well.  Before considering breeding Lola, she paid for the X Ray to be done on her spine (forgive me I'm not sure of the condition it refers to) but the result was excellent, and with the help of Lola's breeder (who has become my sisters mentor), plans were made for a mating with a local stud.

To cut a long story short, all went very well, the pregnancy was easy and the scan showed at least 5 healthy embryos inside Lola's tum. 

She went in to labour effortlessly, and despite all my sisters fears & anxieties, she self whelped 9 (yes...9!) beautiful puppies in just under 5 hours.  But that's when things start to take a worrying turn.

The puppies (except one boy) had a very strange look to them, their skin was almost like 'orange peel' but my sister assumed that this was the look that all new born puppies had having never done it before.  They seemed to feed okay... so everyone was on a high, and so happy with the proud mummy & her babies.   This was at approx 4am on Thursday last week.   By the time everyone in the house had had a couple of hours sleep (we took it in turns) and got showered etc... ready to take a vist to the vets, things had gone drastically wrong.

8 of the 9 puppies began to die.  Thier skin was getting worse and worse by the minute and looked as though it could peel right off, and before my sister arrived at the surgery in the car, we only had one survivor, a tiny boy.

You can imagine how distressing this is for all of us, let alone my sister who is absolutely beside herself.  Her regular vet was on holiday (typical) and she ended up seeing a locum who was very abrupt and said that things like this should be expected in the breeding world, and that bacterial infections are just 'one of those things' and to just basically forget the desceased pups and make the best of the one remaining boy (which of course we are!).

She was sent home with a packet of antibiotics for Lola, and a quick health check for her and the baby - and that was pretty much it.
She is waiting for her regular vet to arrive back from holiday, but this will be in another weeks time.

I know this site is such a great help for many many breeders, and I was wondering if anyone can shed any light on what could have caused this, and will it happen again if she were to have another litter in the future etc....  Lola's breeder is just as stumped as my sister, but said it might be something to do with canine herpes, although there is NO trace of it at all in Lola's line.

Any help or info would be so greatly appreciated.  Puggy experts especially welcome :)

So sorry for the long post.  Best wishes - Becca (on behalf of my sister Joanne).

No experience or advice just wanted to say what a shame for all concerned. Think xray would be for hemivertibrate(sp) but no doubt Pug people will be along soon.

Hi Becca,

I too have never heard of this before, and l am so, so sorry for for you, your family, and of course, the bitch. What a dreadful thing to happen! It might be worth while, having a P.M. done on  one of the puppies, just to ascertain what the cause of death  actually is. I have never experienced anything like this, or know of anyone else, who has experienced anything like this, so maybe it is quite a rare occurance that needs to be got to the bottom of.

So sorry to hear you had this sad and painful experience, have never heard of this before and wonder if the pups did not have their outer skin properly formed. Has your sister spoken to the bitches breeder and the owner of the stud to see if they have ever come across such a terrible thing.

Thanks for your kind words.  I think my sister is just so numb and in shock right now.  The little lad is doing just fine by the way, and seems to be thriving.  Lola is loving being a mum, and she doesn't seem to have noticed that there are so many babies missing - I guess because it all happened so quickly. 

I am trying to gently push my sister in to getting on the vets case to try and arrange a PM before it's too late.  Horrible question but would the decseased pups have been 'disposed of' already?

She just doesn't want to face anything else horrid right now.  Can't say I blame her, poor thing :(

It is likely the pups have been put into the freezer but they will have a collection at least once a week so you need to ask for one to be retained till you sister is able to decide if she wants a PM.

so sorry to read this...how very sad for everyone :(

Just wanted to ask if the puppies were born on time or was they at all early, it just sounds like something didnt develop correctly in some way, have never heard of anything like this before.

Sending hugs to your sister and best wishes for mummy and the little boy x

I regret that I have no words of wisdom.  Just so very, very sorry that a first attempt at breeding has gone so horribly wrong.

Even though I've bred a few litters, I would also be devastated.  Never seen, or heard of it.  After all the organisation, and doing things properly, your sister must be in shock.

Give her a hug from us all.

No ideas either, just lots of sympathy. And some strong words about that locum! Yes tragedies do happen and have to be expected, but losing 8 out of 9 is not 'one of those things'. Your poor sister!

Thanks again x

Maybe we'll never know for sure, but Joanne HAS now been in touch with the vets again, who have agreed to keep one female pup 'on ice' until her regular vet returns from holiday, when a PM can be done.

In answer to the question about when the pups were born, it was day 62 (from the first mating).  The second mating was 2 days later so all in all, pretty much on time.

Life can be so cruel sometimes.

Good that a pup is being kept for PM - if something that horrible happened to me I know I would want to know what had gone wrong. I do hope the little survivor grows up strong and healthy.

Glad the vets are happy to oblige and that your sister has found the strength to ask about a PM, she would always have wondered otherwise. Hope the remaining dogs continues to grow day by day and offer some consolation.

The little one seems to be doing really well, although we're not being too complacent. 

Have given him a name though...  Romeo! 

Was going to be 'Miracle' but didn't want to tempt fate.   Romeo seems very apt because everyone seems to be head over heels in love with him, especially his mummy :)

How lovely. Well done to you all going ahead with a PM. I am always looking for answers so this may give your sister some peace if she gets a diagnosis. Hope he continues to progress well.

Sounds to me like they were born prematurely.  Would be interested to know on what day they were born.

It was day 62 from first mating, see earlier post.

Just found something out about the stud dog.

Apparently his last 2 litters have been average size for the breed (4 in each) but ALL of the pups had to be destroyed because of severe cleft palate & hair lip.

Paranoid me is now wondering if there could be any link?  (My sister and her mentor are LIVID to have not been told about this in advance).

> Just found something out about the stud dog.

Cleft palate and hare lip are midline abnormalities, and I wouldn't think that would be connected to a skin problem (but could be wrong). Midline abnormalities are so common because it's the last bit of the embryo to form (gross umbilical hernias are in the same category, where the body has failed to 'join up' properly).

I hope the vets can find a cause when the pup is PM'd. It may not turn out to be anything congenital at all; I did wonder whether something like a Staph infection could have been to blame? Did any of the dead pups have hare lips or cleft palates?

I would definitely suspect an infection in utero.
Hemi-vertebrae is a spinal disorder that can be disastrous in pugs and in a lot of brachycephalic breeds.Great to hear that the bitch was screened for this disorder, what about the stud dog?

A stud dog that has thrown puppies with cleft palate and harelip should be investigated further.

Thats also a huge litter size for a pug to have, usual litter sizes are 4-6 if you are lucky...Ive never heard of a pug having 9 live puppies before.

Have one of the pups tested if you wish to, but I strongly think that they died from an infection and that the surviving one was very lucky indeed to live at all.

Good luck!

with puppies that die shortly after birth, or even in utero, its worth giving mum a short course of antibiotics before mating again.

Ive had personal experience with a whole kennel of bitches who had picked up a harmless uterine infection which had no symptoms UNTIL they were in whelp, when the pups either died or shortly after birth.

Clavulox is one that we use here in New Zealand. It can be a 7 day course or 10 days and would start when the bitch has started her season and before she is mated.

Better safe than sorry with these type of infections and I would highly recommend this course of action for a bitch who has already lost almost a whole litter to an infection in utero...

Thank you all so much for these replies.  I feel that we are learning some very valuable info here, and we now don't feel so alone & useless.

In answer to the X Ray question, yes the stud dog had been screened too and had an excellent result (which is the main reason he was chosen).

My sisters mentor has now mentioned giving a course of synulox just before breeding again.... is this a similar anitbiotic?  Would anyone else reccomend this course of action?  Seems a bit drastic & scary to me (but I know nothing to be fair lol!!) :)   All I know is that as a 'human' mum, I would be very wary about putting any medication in to my body that may harm my unborn baby or myself.

Thanks again x

Hi, l don't want to sound morbid, but did the puppies have any hair, or did they have just skin?

I am so glad that your Sister has chosen to have a P.M. done, 'cos as they were full term, and nobody on here seems to have ever heard of anything like this, it makes good sense to find out as much as she possibly can, before breeding from this girl again.

Synulox, l believe, is quite routinely used by some breeders, before mating their bitches.

Has she been in touch with any Pug breed clubs? They may be able to throw more light on the subject. Of course, it is not beyond the realms of possibility, that with something like this, no one will own, to ever having had it happen to them. I remember 40 odd years ago, breeders of Boxers did not bandy about, the fact that sometimes they had white puppies in litters, but if truth be told, when l started breeding,  if 2 flashy animals were mated together, 9 times out of 10, l would have 1 or 2 white puppies.

Hi - yes my sister in a member of the Pug club of Great Britain, and she has forwarded all of the info to them.  We are awating a response to see if anyone can shed any light on the awful event.

The question about hair/fur on the puppies....  they were very patchy.  Some had clumps of hair, others were practically bald, all had skin that looked inflamed, sore and had a 'peeling' look about it.  Almost like blisters.

Sorry if this is distressing to anyone - I can't think of a pleasant way of saying these things.  Sorry :(

(Romeo is fully covered in a dark fawn fur and is doing well)  Mummy is okay too x

p.s I'm really enjoying being a member of the forum!  I would write a post about my own dogs, but they are just pets, and there's nothing wildly exciting to write!

The most amazing thing I can claim is that my Staffie achieved his gold medal with the KC good citizen scheme!  As for my lab.... he's just a soppy boy who loves kisses!

I use synulox with my bitch as she has a tendency to get infections after seasons whether or not she has been mated, I have to be very very careful about not letting her outside except the back garden, keeping her 'bits' clean and so on. So glad Romeo is doing well!

Don't worry at all about being descriptive, this forum is supposed to be an information exchange so the more information communicated the better for everyone's benefit and to help find solutions.

Really glad Romeo is doing well and I hope something helpful is gleaned from the PM.

Best wishes

I am so glad to hear Romeo is doing well - All my pugs send him best wishes and encouraging thoughts:)  This must have been a devastating experience, I have never heard of anything like this, with either pugs or other breeds.  9 is an incredibly big litter for a pug - we have once (and only once) had a litter of 8 (all were OK) and twice had a litter of 7 (first time OK, second litter lost all but 2)  this was with 3 different pug bitches, in 10 years of breeding pugs.

The state of the skin owudl suggest some sort of in utero infection to me, but I hope your vet will come up with a reason after the PM.

Hi Becca, how's the little one doing today?

Kind regards, Josie

>Thier skin was getting worse and worse by the minute and looked as though it could peel right off

A very short time ago there was a link posted about water puppies.  Do any of our experienced breeders know if this might be a similar case?

Apologies for raising it if not, I have no knowledge of this condition beyond what I read but it sounded familiar...

Best wishes to you Becca, and your sister xx

his last 2 litters have been average size for the breed (4 in each) but ALL of the pups had to be destroyed because of severe cleft palate & hair lip.

What on earth was the owner of the stud dog thinking???? Surely one litter would have set a clear message never to use his boy again. So sorry for your sister and her bitch.

I have been reading this thread with great interest and am so sorry for your sister.  It must have been a devastating experience for her.

Is the stud used reguarly?  If so, it is my opinion he be withdrawn if the following statement is true;- Apparently his last 2 litters have been average size for the breed (4 in each) but ALL of the pups had to be destroyed because of severe cleft palate & hair lip.  There are other studs to choose from and his owner should do the right thing by him and not allow him to sire any further litters - if by chance they were ok it may be that the problems skip a generation and appear in future generations instead of possibly being stopped, certainly from this particular line.

I would be very interested to hear result of PM as I'm sure others are.

Hi Becca, has your sister had the P.M. report yet? And how is baby Romeo doing?

kindest regards, Josie

Hi everyone....

So sorry for the delay in responding, we've had a bad time of it just lately.

Firstly I must tell you all that little Romeo was PTS on Friday.   He began suddenly bleeding from the nose, ears & eyes, and was rushed to the vets, but it was very quickly clear that was suffering a brain hemoarage (sp?) and there was no other option but to end his short life. :(

The PM has revealed very little to be honest.  There was a bacterial infection present, which the vet thinks may have some link to Toxoplasmosis.  There are several cats who visit my sisters garden and they fear that mummy may have eaten some cat poo whilst pregnant and inadvertantly passed this dreadful infection to the pups, however, the end result was SO extreme, and now taking in to account little Romeo's demise....  the vet (and us) fear that the problem may well be genetic, and that breeding from Lola again is something that we should not consider ever again.

She will be speyed as soon as possible and remain my sister's very much loved pet.  Spoilt in the lap of luxury for the rest of her days.

How very sad for all concearned :(   Thanks for all your kindness. 

I am so sorry to hear about Romeo , your poor sister , I think its best also that she is spayed , your sister sounds a really sensible person. I just feel so sorry for her that she didn't get her puppy to keep.

R.I.P little Romeo
xxx

Oh that's so sad after all the heartbreak of the other puppies, I do wish Romeo had made it. :-( Run free little puppies. x

Aww im so sorry for you all.  R.I.P Romeo xxx

I am so sorry to hear about Romeo, so sad for you all. Best wishes.

What a sad end, so sorry for you all.

I'm so sorry for all concerned.

It's particularly galling that having done everything possible to get it all right that this should be the outcome when puppy farmers are churning out litter after litter and no thought or care for the dogs and pups..

so sorry to read this! my heart goes out to you and your sister x

this is so sad its heart breaking  :(   my heart goes out to all of you...x

So very sorry. What an awful time you have had. Run free Romeo!

So very sorry, you must all be devastated x

So,so sorry to read this xx i could tell from your earlier post how much this litter meant to your sister and how much care she gave them.She sounds like she would have been such a caring breeder,if only they were all like her.

Hugs to you and your sister,god,breeding is hearbreaking at times xxxx

I am so sorry to hear that :(

So So Sorry to hear the very sad news. My heart felt wishes go out to all of you.
Take Care xx

Thank you all so much. 

Joanne (my sis) sends her heartfelt gratitude and wishes you all the very best.

On a slightly different note, I was made SO cross this morning by one of the mum's at my daughters school.  I was listening in on a conversation (naughty me!) about someone who had purposely mated their tiny chihuahua girl with a small jack russell and the poor little dog had given birth to 5 puppies.  There was no health tests mentioned, no real planning or any buyers lined up for the puppies, and she said that they were not going to pay out for a vet check for the dog/puppies because they couldn't afford it.  But apparently the pups are thriving and everything is going well.

I am SO livid.  My sister went through every correct procedure that you can imagine, and even now she is beating herself up and blaming herself for every aspect of the terrible outcome, yet people like this woman at the school can just knock out puppy after puppy with NO thought for the animal or it's future offsprings.

I know I am probably being bitter and twisted - and a bit jealous on behalf of Jo, but I can't help it. Grrrr makes me so mad :(

I sympathize with how you feel about the chixjrt especially after what your sister has been through so unfair.
Unfortunately I get told of these type of litters too frequently it kind of goes with area I work in. Got to the point where I try to avoid dog conversations with students and colleagues as I cant do anything and just get angy and upset.

Totally understand where you are coming from, if you do things right and then things go wrong you always hear of people who do things on a shoestring and have no problems.

I was having a facial the other day and the therapist who knows I have dogs started telling me about her dad's staff that had had pups, they were kept in the shed on straw. By the time she had finished the treatment I was so tense that I could have snapped in two and then I had to pay for it :( I did tell her my thoughts when I was in an upright position.

It's life I'm afraid, all we can do is our best and know that our consciences are clear.

carnt agree more i know someone that has bred her pets just for money and hasnt had 1 problem at all from a litter of 12 pups ,no health tests :( not even a good example of the breed! it makes me sick!