Hi Everyone

I am new to the forum and could do with a bit of advice.  I had a litter of pups vet checked at 6 weeks of age and all given a clean bill of health.  Off they all went to their new owners but one called me on the day he took his pup for it's first vaccination to say that his vet had picked up a very bad heart murmur.  The pup is now 10 weeks of age and after seeing a specialist it has been graded 4/6.  It is witten within my contract that a refund will be given if the pup is found to have any sort of hereditary illness 6 months from the sale.  My question is should my vet be held accountable for not spotting this?  If at the 6 week vet check I was told that there was a heart murmur present the pup would not have been sold.  The new owner would have been dissapointed but he would not be going through all the heartache and expense now.  I really don't know where I stand so could do with some helpful advice.  Many thanks.

Hi
i dont know what breed you have nor am i expert on heart problems , but some puppies are diagnosed with mumurs when young and they do lessen as they grow,i know in my breed a dog cannot be heart tested properly until 12 months of age (eco doppler)  was the vet /specialist on the bva cardiologist list , if it were me  would want a report or a conversation with him/her or my vet to speak to them, sorry if you have already done this .

I would have thought that 10 weeks way far too early to judge a dogs heart function - murmur in puppies is common. Think I would be wanting a word with the 'specialist' and also my own vet.

Agree with newfienook and Nova.  My breed often has 'puppy murmurs' which clear up within a couple of months.  This is why our breed heart score programme will only score dogs of 12 months or over.  I too would be having a word with the 'specialist' ;-)

Thank you all for your comments.  I will be seeing the report tomorrow at some point but I am still finding it difficult to grasp how my vet missed such an important thing.  We don't think that the insurance is going to pay out for it as they will class it as congenital but surely if my vet didn't spot it at 6 weeks then how can they argue it is?  We will just have to wait and see.  Thank you once again.

Emily, is this puppy ill?  If not, why would you or the new owners want to claim off the insurance? Give it a couple of months and then get another opinion about the alleged murmur.  If it clears up (as many, many puppy murmurs do) that will be the end of the issue.  Then all you need to do is get the pup assessed once it is over 12 months old (presuming here that most breed specific heart schemes are the same as mine?)

Emily I am finding it difficult to understand this, puppies often have mummers, heart testing is not done till the pup is 12 months, at least it is not in most breeds. Who is this 'specialist' that is testing at such a young age, is he on the heart testing panel?

If it were me I would agree to pay the purchase price only once the dog was 12 months and only then if it had a heart condition that required treatment. Or you could return the money now and take the puppy back.

Of course, if the pup is ill that is a different matter but from what you say it is not sick and it was only when they went for the second injection that the murmur was noted, this is something that is often noted and upsets the new owners but in all most all cases there is no lasting problem.

Bruce Cattanach when writing reccomendations for the Boxer breed and aortic stenosis advised

"Baby puppies aged 8 - 12 weeks commonly have minor "flow" murmurs, which usually disappear by about 16 weeks. These are not known to be associated with heart disease in the adult. However, puppies with loud, harsh murmurs should be referred through one's vet to cardiologists for evaluation."

http://www.boxerbreedcouncil.co.uk/as.htm For further info regarding Aortic Stenosis.

If a cardiologist has graded the pup a 4/6 would be very surprised if this grading would improve to a 0.
Some pups and murmers do improve a few gradings (1 or 2) as the pup becomes an adult.
Hence why our breed's reccommendations for scoring advises that scores will only be accepted (& placed on our heart tested clear list) for dogs of 12 months and over. It doesn't mean that you can't have puppies heart tested before this age. Just means that their scores aren't counted and you have to re-test when they are 12 months and over.

Ah, well you have the advantage of knowing the breed. I would still want to wait a while till the pup was a bit older before returning it but it could be better back with it's breeder who one imagines did all the tests available on the parents so will wish to know how the pup progresses.

Thank you Boxacrazy for that link.

Ours is a breed that does not require heart testing.  All other relevant tests are done with all our dogs.  After 21 years of breeding and being involved in the breed for over 40 years this is our first case of a heart murmur.

Emily74 you can say the breed I believe as it is releavant and you are not saying you have pups on the ground to sell
Lea :)

Oh right well if thats the case then they are GSD's.  Thank you Lea.

In which case I think there is something strange going on here, if you are happy to have the pup back then that is what I would do return the money and take the pup back - see what your vet thinks and if they think the murmur is normal then you can re-home. If on the other hand the pup really does have a problem then you may have to choose between keeping her or making a very sad decision.

As there is not occurrence of heart problem in your line nor it seems in the breed you have done nothing wrong but as you agreed to return the money then taking the pup back may be the best way to go at least then you can have control of the tests done and the response taken to them.

If it is a consolation I had a GSD bitch diagnosed as a pup with a heart murmur, if I remember correct a grade 3 - she was very active all her life and when she was spayed at 6 the vet said she had a slight murmur but nothing to worry about and she lived to 15.

Thank you Nova thats very reasurring to hear.  I asked for the puppy to be returned to me as per the contract the day they contacted me about it.  I have asked on three seperate occasions to have the puppy back but they have refused.  I will wait to see what they plan to do when I meet them later and I will update you on the outcome.

Thanks to all that have contributed.

Understandably they may wish to keep the puppy.  If the problems the pup has are likely to affect the quality of life and need lifelong medication, after receiving evidence to this effect I personally would refund the purchase price as a gesture of goodwill and wish them luck with whatever they choose to do from now on, but that this would be the limit of your financial involvement, and of course no suggestion that thsi was soemthign that you coudl ahve forseen or prevented, but that you will always be there with what emotional support you can give..

That is what I have in my head Brainless as it has become to clear to me that they do not want to give the pup up and at the end of the day despite having a contract singed I cannot force them to do what they do not want to do.

My Tiva had a mur mur which she out grew def by her 1 yr check up- now being 12yrs she has it again but just a slight one, but sure that just comes with age. Was also told it is kinda commom with the Brack breeds maybe because of their pushed in faces. I would just keep in close contact and see if it goes away- don't think I would worry to much as of yet. Many dogs live long healthy lives and my Tiva is proof of that. Hope all goes well :-)

I've known Boxers that have been grade 3's that have lived to a ripe old age (double figures)
with out the need for medication. Although the owners did have to adjust the
exercise regime and keep them relatively 'calm' (not that you can easily keep a bouncy Boxer calm).

So should imagine that it may well be the same for the shepherd puppy.
Or if they are lucky that the grading improves and puppy lives a completely normal life with a
normal exercise routine. :)

Don't know whereabouts in the country you are but there are some very good cardiologists
out there.

Although some referrals at cardiologists can be expensive - so it may well be worth having a look at
the liability of future medical costs of puppy. I.E. If you refund the cost of puppy in full and they
accept will that negate any future claims against you?

Hi Everyone

I now have a copy of the Cardiolidgy (sp) report.  The puppy not only has a 4/6 murmur but also a severe case of Subaortic Stenosis.  The prognosis is not good.  They have said that he will probably not live to be a year old and realistically give him to around 5 or 6 months of age.  As you can imagine I am incredibly upset by this.  A full refund is being given and his owner did debate letting me have him back but he feels that he wants to be there with the pup until the end.

I am so angry that something like this was not picked up at the 6 week vet check.  The upset that this has caused the pups owner is immense.  I will be taking the report to my vets on Tuesday and demanding some answers.  What I expect to get from my vet I don't know but I somehow feel a sorry will not be enough.

Well I am so sorry to hear this Emily it does seem that the poor chap has major problems. It is hard to think that the pup did not appear ill and as you say that your vet did not pick it up however it is common for a pup to have a heart murmur so may be the vet dismissed what was being heard as the normal puppy murmur.

Aaaaaaaaaw that is so sad on everyone's part even the poor lil one...

my lab has the same grade 5 murmur and subaortic stenosis, leaking valves narrow
valves, she had a balloon angioplasty at 10 weeks old and is on constant heart & blood pressure medication, but to look at her now you would not know she was poorly, she had more energy than any dog I have ever had, she swims daily for at least half an hour normally longer and is now three years old, her prognosis before the operation was 6 monthss we still dont know how long she will live but at present she is a  happy lively labrador. Our situation was different in the fact that the breeder knew the pup was sick and still sold her, I found this out  later from her vet who advised her not to sell the puppy!! and once you have them, you cant give them up as immediatly they are part of the family, so I can understand your owner wanting to keep the puppy.