What do people feel about judges who hand a dog a CC that has never won much before & doesn't really win anything afterwards?   Does it do the judge's credibility any good?   Is it more a breed specialist thing or perhaps an all-rounder who may not be totally 'up' on the foibles of the breed?

Is it more a breed specialist thing or perhaps an all-rounder who may not be totally 'up' on the foibles of the breed? Or it could be an all-rounder for example spotting something really good in a dog IE movement etc that was lacking in a lot of the other entries.  

I think ( slightly off topic) why it is so important to have both judges at our shows. Alrounders do often see trends creeping in the "perhap" breed people can at times accept.  I often see alrounders judging movement closely.

Going back to your question was the dog shown regularly after this CC?  is there anything that may have affected the dogs condition ? handling change etc..

I do hate to see dogs on 2 CCs forever. Not that I don't think they are worthy just it is such a shame for the dog.  You am I both know living so far up here :-) that it is not a cheap or easy ride show.

I got my first CC on a bitch last October and 10 months on I haven't gotten anything else BUT that was my last show until leeds this year :-)  I am praying it won't be her last :-D

If it was the best dog there on the day then why shouldn't they?  Don't forget we don't get to see all of the dog up close so can't say what things that judge sees on the day.
I have a dog that won BIS at the first breed club show but she's a right little so and so, so I never know whether she's going to behave herself at shows or not.  I've never really got anywhere since but every single judge that has gone over her has said that she's one of the best dogs confirmation wise that they've seen, sadly she gets her mental head and bounces everywhere LOL.

Providing the judge places the dog they find, on the day, and, in their opinion, best fits the standard, is fit, moving well and has ring presence then, no that is what the judge is supposed to do and in most cases, doing their own thing, will gain a judge respect - providing they can tell you why they did as they did.

Because it has not won before or since tells you nothing about the competition on the day.

> If it was the best dog there on the day then why shouldn't they?

Exactly.  The judge could actually be judging the dog and not the face holding it.  it could be the only break they get and rightly deserved.

I could not agree more!!

I had a conversation with some one recently, having told them I was entering my lad into Champ shows, as he had done well with Open shows, I was told not to bother as he would not be good enough, (and they have not even seen him!!!), and that as I was 'unknown' would get no where.How do you get known, if you don't go?? I have since qualified him for Crufts, which I am very proud of.

When I first started I went to an open show, everyone had been doing the shows for a number of years.  I didn't anywhere except last if a spot lol.  The judge told me i had a good dog and to get myself known.  Why should i if the dog is worthy of a better place. 
So i'm with you.

A newbie to my breed was told by someone not to enter their dog as it wouldn't get anywhere, their first champ show.  They came first in their class and was up for best puppy.  They were so glad they entered.

We do like to throw our money away don't we lol.

You might say Henry's CC was wasted as he never got the other two, but we were 2nd behind the 3 big winners of the time at least a dozen times. He did get 2 Firsts at Crufts, a BIS at a Club show, and his ShCM, so it wasn't a CC completely sticking out by itself though.

I much prefer it to judges who find it difficult to get past a 'face',  irrespective of what they have on the end of the lead.  If the judge felt that a dog was worthy of the CC on the day then why should they not  make such an award.  They are not there to judge what the dog has won before or what it wins later but to judge what is before them on the day.  I think in a way it does a judge's credibility more good than harm, if I enter a show and know that the judge will judge the dogs before them  in a fair and unbiased manner  then even if I don't get placed it does not bother me.  I don't however show under judges who  could make their placements just by looking at the catalogue. 

> I don't however show under judges who  could make their placements just by looking at the catalogue. 

I've not been doing it long enough to know this so still chuck my money away.  As you say it doesn't matter if you don't get placed fair and square.  I'm learning lol.

> I don't however show under judges who  could make their placements just by looking at the catalogue. 

threw my money away yesterday :( 

If there's one thing I really can't stand it's watching a judge looking at the people not the dogs, I glanced up at the judge at the beginning of the class yesterday and made eye contact   he wasn't looking at my dog at all.  Nor did he once look at her afterwards.  While she was on the table he was looking at the other people and while I was doing the triangle etc.    I wasn't the only one, the atmosphere at the ringside and benches was mutinous :(   I got the feeling that the results were in before anyone had entered :(   Moreover he didn't look at any of the points of the dogs in front of him - and in our breed it's a must to look in mouths and at pads at the very least.  

I still haven't got a handle on all the face judges so occasionally make a mistake :(    I don't care where we're placed as long as it's honest.  Conversely, I'd also hate to be placed 'because of who I was', it reflects badly on the dog ;)

>Providing the judge places the dog they find, on the day, and, in their opinion, best fits the standard, is fit, moving well and has ring presence then, no that is what the judge is supposed to do and in most cases, doing their own thing, will gain a judge respect

This is exactly what I look for in a judge, at least you know you have his/her honest opinion :)

That's so rude. My bitch wasn't up to much as a puppy though she's done quite well as an adult. I'll never forget her first champ show where I turned round to finish my up and down and the judge had started going over the next dog!! OK she was not up to that standard, but I had paid my money and I expect my dog to be judged! In contrast a few weeks later I was at an open show with one other puppy who was later made up, and the judge was so fair in looking closely at each of the 2 puppies both while judging and at the end before making his decision, as if there could possibly be any choice! But I so appreciated the equal time I was given.

It is such bad form not to give every exhibit the same treatment and as most judges 'go over a dog' in the same way it is a lack of concentration to judge one dog different from the next and makes the job of judging much more difficult. There are times when you could look at the class entering the ring and think you would be happy to place there and then but that is no excuse for not giving everyone the same time and chance to impress you and it is surprising you can change your mind once you really start to look at each exhibit.

Think we have all found a judge looking elsewhere as we return from running round the ring, I would usually just shrug but on one occasion I was irritated and on returning I asked the judge if he would like me to go again, he said why so I said because you were distracted, oh yes I was a bit he said, hope he remembered the next time he ignored someone but I doubt it.