You always hope the first pup to be born will be presented head first, dont you, make a nice passageway for the rest of the pups. Well, helping my girl last night, a maiden bitch, after much pushing, feet protrude. I know, this is very common, but she seemed to take an age to make any headway. Asked the vet who said "let her get on with it" (thats me told lol) Eventually, not one but two puppies arrive together, in one bag. Identical, except for the fact that one is huge and the other tiny!! I'm assuming they are twins and the larger pup took most of the sustinence whilst in the womb!! Is this a common occurrence? I found it fascinating. By the way, this is the girl who ate sultanas in early pregnancy!! Thank goodness all is well.

how lovely, any more pups?

Congrats on the new family x any more pups?

I would be very interested to hear if anyone has heard of this before.I haven't and like you find it fascinating.Hope the little 'twin' thrives.

It was such a shock. My daughter's ex has two nephews who are twins and they are the same. One 6ft odd and the other 5.6 and skinny with it. I did read somewhere about human twins that one can take all the nosh off the other but cant remember where. Maybe its the same thing!!.3 girls, 3 boys. Mum doing a good job!

> .Hope the little 'twin' thrives

He is getting extra special attention!

How many placenta if one they are identical twins if two they are not. Either way congratulations. Mind you if removed the sack and there was only one then I would think that would amount to the same thing.

> How many placenta

Only one. Will try to take a closer look when I am weighing them this evening, see if their markings are exact. Mum is so settled with them at the moment. Lovely to see and quiet for a while!! Hoping to get a bit of sleep tonight, maybe!!! Will be sleeping on the settee she chose to have the pups on. Just like her mum did two and a half years ago. Was ready this time and covered it up, just in case!!

I remember seeing an article on canine twins, which are those who share a bag and placenta.

Oooh, interesting Brainless. Will have to google it and see what comes up.

Sorry about Shouting the title. Just noticed!!! Well they arent identical. Very very similar but different white bits on the chests and tums. I will be interested to see if they bond as they grow. At the moment the little boy is being shoved out of the way at nosh time, so I have to keep a close eye on that. Havent had time to do any research but maybe later.

>Well they arent identical. Very very similar but different white bits on the chests and tums.

The outward markings are irrelevent for deciding if they're identical twins; human identical twins - even conjoined human twins - have physical differences between them.

In my litter that have just gone to their new homes, there were 2 Black/white bitches born together, I hadn't heard of 'twins' but I was convinced they were sharing same bag/placenta but mum cleaned up too quickly to be certain. Hope your little one thrives :-)

> The outward markings are irrelevent for deciding if they're identical twins

Ah, right. thank-you.

> 2 Black/white bitches born together,

Did you notice if they did bond?. I dont suppose you can attribute human characteristics to dogs but it would be interesting to test that one out.

Same as clones.

Can't say if they 'bonded' but I found in my litter the same colours did seem to play together, we had 2 sable/white bitches, the 2 black/white bitches, 2 cream/white dogs & 3 Cream/white bitches and they all played in their colour/sex groups. It is still happening funnily enough just this morning OH said the sables play together (pup thats staying & junior bitch) & cream/white play together (mum & daughter) so it will be interesting to see what happens in your litter, keep us updated :-)
PS to add the 2x B/w bitches have both gone to agility homes and will see each other quite often LOL

Funny about that colour thing. Will let you know what happens with little and large!!

> I remember seeing an article on canine twins, which are those who share a bag and placenta.

I've also read this in many cat & other species books though never been lucky enough to see real twins born to my animals. If they shared a sac and placenta then they must be genuine twins.... which is rare in small animals! How fascinating. I do hope it all goes well and the little one catches up. I'd love to see pics when they are bigger.

> I'd love to see pics when they are bigger

Yes, will do that. They are both doing well and tiny is gaining so no worries there. Will post a pic when I can.

sound like they are definatly twins , they can have different markings as enviromental factors in the womb affect how the pigment cells are spread over the body. even cloned animals can have different markings to the "original"

I think so too. I do have a pic of them now but not a clue how to upload it.

You'll have to put a link in your profile;e as you can't upload pictures to the forum.

Ah, right. thank-you

But if you can work out how to do it, you can put a link in a post here.... perhaps to a Photobucket or Flickr album (or similar).

this happened with our first litter, the bitch struggled and went for a c section, two pups in one sac sharing a placenta. they are very similar but not exactly marked.

> Photobucket or Flickr album

Pardon?? Sorry not familiar with those but son coming over at weekend so will ask him to sort it for me.

Just type in www.photobucket.com
or
www.flickr.com
and you will be given some space and easy to follow intructions to upload your pics, then you can post a link to them here :)

Oh how cool. will have a look at that when I get a minute. thank-you. Son coming with digital camera tomorrow as mine has died so hopefully sometime this weekend should be pic of little and large!!

Here are the pics. I hope!!!  http://s965.photobucket.com/albums/ae138/annibutty/ Thanks for the help re: that. Not sure if I have done it right so will  try it myself in a minute.
In the meantime, an update on said twins. The tiny one was 149 gramms at birth, his twin 276 gramms. At day eight tiny has doubled his weight to 330g, which I am quite happy with. He is just the same as all the other pups in mobility, quietness after feeding etc. etc and his weight gain is in proportion to his birth weight. Maybe after weaning he will start to catch up with the other pups, or will he just carry on as he is?? Dont know that one as first tiny one have bred.
Big sister at day eight is 558g so she again has doubled her birth weight.
All pups and mum are well.

It's not clear - are twins both boys?

No, the little one is a boy. the big one a girl.

Then they're not identical twins. Identical twins are always the same sex because they develop from the same fertilised egg. Your two puppies are just like any other two puppies in a litter.

Then they cannot have shared a bag and placenta if they are not identical/same sex from one egg?????.

Others beats me to it - they cannot be identical twins of being different sex.

> Then they're not identical twins. Identical twins are always the same sex because they develop from the same fertilised egg. Your two puppies are just like any other two puppies in a litter

I welcome your opinion but I cant agree with you there. No, they are not identical twins but two puppies in one bag, with one placenta? I do believe they are twins.

> Then they cannot have shared a bag and placenta if they are not identical/same sex from one egg?????.

Ooooh, this is a wierd one. What am I missing with human twins. They both have their own placenta?? I suppose it could be that we missed a placenta and there was a queue of two? I mean, it isnt that important in the scheme of things but just of great interest to me. Would be interested in more opinions.

>What am I missing with human twins. They both have their own placenta??

There are two types of twins; identical twins which develop from the same fertilised egg, so are genetically the same individual, and are always the same sex - they are, in effect, clones. Conjoined (Siamese) twins are the result of the egg not splitting totally; if it had done then the result would have been identical twins.

Then there are fraternal twins, which is when two individual eggs are fertilised and develop in the womb together. These can be the same sex or different sexes, but they are no more than any other brothers/sisters who just happened to be gestated at the same time; sometimes there will be a close family likeness, sometimes they'll take after different parts of their shared ancestry.

Puppies in a litter are like fraternal twins - lots of eggs were shed and fertilised and all grew during the same pregnancy; they'll be no more alike than a bitch having six pregnancies to the same dog, and only having one puppy each time. As your two are different sexes they must have come from different fertilised eggs and so are fraternal twins (sextuplets? Octuplets?), like the rest of the litter.

A wiki explanation.

Thanks Jeangenie, much clearer now. Suppose it was a romantic idea to think they were actual twins. Never mind, they are just as prescious. I suppose now the question to ask is why did we produce such a tiny pup and will he remain tiny? The irony of it is that I chose the stud and his pedigree, specifically because my girl is a little on the big side and was looking to produce a smaller version, in time, although I know that this is not guaranteed. Maybe we have the perfect specimen. lol If only it were so simple.

Often size in the litter can be determined by the quality of the placenta and position in the womb.

I had a puppy in my first litter of four that was born half the size of the others.  At a year old she was the same size ans substance as her sister that I kept who had been the biggest.

She was about 2 pounds lighter than her 3 sisters at 8 weeks, but was 9 pounds which is within the normal range for pups of her age.

If I was keeping a puppy I would not normally keep one that was particularly small, just in case it didn't make size, but more likely the bone, but would not be surprised if it did go onto develop well.

Good to know Brainless. On browsing through "Book of the Bitch" notice that the author says much the same, that he should catch up pretty well, from weaning time onwards.

Must just say that I loved looking at the pictures of the puppies, they are absolutley gorgeous! I wish we could all share, as we have 9 day old pups here :).

We had a small pup in our last litter. I wouldn't say he is overly large as an adult, but he has definitely not been hindered by his small stature at the start. In fact, he was the pick of the males & having seen recent pictures of him, I can see why!

In our present litter, we have a little girl, who was a few ounces smaller than the others. In fact, she has a sister, who was only one ounce heavier at birth but who has taken off since, leaving this little one still the smallest! I'm trying to make sure she gets fed every time and she is pretty fiesty and lively, so I'm not overly worried. As Brainless said, I'm hoping that some extra special attention when they are weaned should help her to catch up.

The problem for me is that we're keeping a bitch here, and are lucky enough to have 4 to choose from all being well. Now human nature being what it is - the whole family has fallen for this little bitch, me included if the truth be known but they all know that I probably won't let my heart rule my head when it comes to choosing.

Does anyone else think like Brainless that the smallest will never match up to the others in terms of bone structure etc? I'm hoping there won't be a lot to choose between them, they are all looking alike at the moment, then we can make a choice on character, etc. I just know this is going to be a very difficult decision for us as ours is the only one definitely to be shown. It's just that the little one looks SO nice - her head is in perfect proportion and VERY pretty, I can just see that she's going to be a very feminine bitch.

I hope my post isn't deemed too off topic... apologies if anyone thinks it is...

> Now human nature being what it is - the whole family has fallen for this little bitch, me included if the truth be known

Same here. I think its an instinct thing, to focus on the smallest so that they get the attention they need but its a little easier for me as he is a boy.! Had he been a girl, well, I dont know, He is so well proportioned and really good on the eye.

> Does anyone else think like Brainless that the smallest will never match up to the others in terms of bone structure etc?

I dont think its that far off topic!! We have sort of been discussing the potential of the tiny pups so, go for it.

> Does anyone else think like Brainless that the smallest will never match up to the others in terms of bone structure etc?

Just to clarify I meant bone substance, not conformation/structure.  You can have a great structure but be too light in bone for the breed, but great for another where light bone is wanted Papillon or Italian Greyhound.

In my breed we want Strong Bone (not heavy but not light), as I don't breed from heavy boned dogs I am most likely to get good bone or some lighter bone, as one of my girls is nice but a bit light.

My mentor told me to avoid the ultra pretty petite puppy as in my breed puppies that make correct adults should look chunky up to 8 weeks..

As I thought, it's pretty much the same with my breed in that dogs too light in bone wouldn't do well in conformation. Thankfully we'll be having a fair few people come to see the litter who will I'm sure help me choose!

A friend who is showing her new puppy, told me the other day that she was the tiny one in the litter - no lack of bone there!!

The trouble is, the choice of bitch is so important as she will go on to progress my line all being well, so I can't afford to choose on emotions alone. We had a teeny girl also in the last litter who had been poorly which kept her back, who had not really caught up by 8 weeks. My husband had gotten so attached to her he found it very hard to let her go. As my daughter was having the pick, it made it a bit easier to choose tbh, as it would have been foolish to keep one just because she was "cute".

Now if the little one wasn't fit to sell, now that would be another matter, but I would probably have kept the pick AND the little one... perhaps rehoming the little one once she had caught up. BTW they sent me pics a couple of weeks ago and she's lovely, but wouldn't have been the best to keep for showing...

The litter we have now on the other hand is extremely even in terms of being alike - I think it's going to be very hard to choose!!

I had a very small pup in a litter many years ago. Friends chose her because she was small (though I did say things could change!). However, she grew up to be the largest bitch in the litter and they'd called her Min :)

Remember a brood bitches job is a hard one so you really want to breed from the most robust bitches, so ones that did well in the nest are better candidates than ones that perhaps did not do as well.

It could be something inherent in the pup that made it less thrifty, or just poor luck, but always keep a 'good doer' to breed from.

Farmers keep the most vigorous stock to breed from if they have any sense so we must think on the same liens when breeding putting our emotions aside when deciding what is allowed to enter the gene pool, as t could have far reaching effects for good or ill on the breed as a whole.

The little one may go on to be a sturdy healthy individual worthy of being bred from, but as you have to choose your future brood bitch at 8 weeks you take no chances.

> Does anyone else think like Brainless that the smallest will never match up to the others in terms of bone structure etc?

I depends on your breed and your lines.  My first purebred whippet we bought as a pet.  She was the smallest in the litter by half.  The breeders knew the lines though and said she had potential - the sire had thrown another litter with a similarly small one in it and that one had caught up.  They suggested we try showing for some fun, as aside from being on the small side she was quite nice conformationally.  By about a year she did catch up to her sisters and there wasn't any difference between the three of them in size/bone/etc...

I've just spoken to the stud owner about the little bitch and she's suggested I bring ahead the first worming, as they would be done on Saturday anyway. Now that's something I didn't really consider, so if it's as simple as that, then we've got no problems :)

I probably do agree with Brainless in choosing a strong bitch if considering continuing a line, I just hope to heaven that barring any disasters with this baby, that she doesn't turn out to be the "pick"...

I appreciate comments and experiences on this!