I've just had Esme scanned and she has missed for the 2nd time. I am so disappointed and wonder what to do next.

Both times I've used the same stud dog. The 1st time I had her premate tested at the Vets and they recommended to mate her on day 10 and 12. That time we mated her on day 11 (slip) and day 12 (15 min tie).

This time I had her Idexx tested and the recommendation was to mate on day 12 and 14 which we did with good ties both days (the Idexx readings were 4.5 on day 5, and 9.0 on day 9). She also had the CHV vaccination this time.

As much as I like this stud dog I do wonder if he is the problem. I know it is generally bitches that dictate numbers but he has only sired one good size litter (out of the 8 I know of), the rest have been 3's and 4's and a couple of singles. So I think I will have to use a different dog next time if only to satisfy me that Esme isn't the problem.

Does anyone have any advice?

Have you spoken to the studs owner and got their opinion?  Has he sired litters recently?  It could be he's going through a bad patch.

One of my girls missed to a very nice boy last summer and I was really upset - I later found out he missed with a couple of others around that time too.

I decided to use another stud the following season and we've had a small but lovely litter.

My foundation bitch missed on her first two matings - I gave her a good talking to and found her a lovely young toy boy and we had lovely matings and ended up using him twice.  May just be about them not 'clicking' well together.

I know how devastated you must be feeling, but have a good look round for another stud and fingers crossed all goes well next time.

Did you only have her tested on day 5 and 9. Did Larry actually say 12 and 14. If you add the results up it works out that she should have been mated at day 10 but I am certainly not the expert here so if Larry told you 12 and 14 then there must be a problem somewhere else.

> Have you spoken to the studs owner and got their opinion?  Has he sired litters recently?  It could be he's going through a bad patch.

Am waiting for a call from her as we speak.

He has sired 8 litters (3, 8, 1, 4, 6, 1, 4, 4) and as you can see they aren't large. I don't know how many misses he's had and I'm not sure if I'd get a totally honest answer from her. I do wonder if the pairing just doesn't 'click'.

Firstly, I'm really sorry this has happened again. I'm no expert I would add, we're only on our second litter, but we have a castrated male who has been spot on with telling me when she's ready. We didn't even blood test this time, although risky, only had one mating which has resulted in pregnancy.

During my reading up on the subject, it did mention somewhere that stud dogs can suffer with temporary sterility following bouts of hot weather. I'm guessing your girl was mated during the recent hot spell?

Whatever, I would be tempted to try a different dog next time especially as he seems to be siring small litters. So disappointing for you!!

In answer to your questions Alison, yes, I only had her tested on days 5 and 9 (I did say after the day 9 test "would it be a good idea to have another test" but he said "it wasn't necessary as if she ovulated early the day 12 should catch her, and if she ovulated a bit later then day 14 would cover that"). Larry definitely did say mate on 12 and 14.

if the readings you have beeen given from Idexx are in ng/ml you have mated her too late

would the stud dog owner be willing to get him sperm tested? Of course this will not tell you if there was an issue at the time of the mating but might give you some idea if he maybe has a low count... or if all is ok now, you might want to stick with using him again.

>if the readings you have beeen given from Idexx are in ng/ml you have mated her too late

If that is the case then Larry at Idexx has given me the wrong times. He DEFINITELY said to mate on day 12 and 14.

The units of measurement are nmol/L.

The low readings quoted in your first post cannot be in nmol/l .Unfortunately it is not as simple as just mating when you reach a certain number,7 out of 10 times you may get away with it with a fresh semen mating,the other 3 you will not

I can assure you they are nmol/L, I have the piece of paper in front of me. And I can only be guided by the Lab, afterall he is the expert and that is what I'm paying for, his professional advice.

Ummm I think Id use a differnt boy, is there nothing of similar breeding to him i.e. litter brothers or half brothers and like others have said I would be asking for a sperm count.

Maybe the days you were recommended to mate her were the projected days she should've ovulated but she didn't for some reason?

You may be right, which is why I asked him if I needed a 3rd test. His recommendation was not to, and I chose to take that advice - he said he thought by mating on day 12 and 14 I'd be covered for early or late ovulation. I think maybe next time I will just keep testing until I know she has ovulated, even if he says mate on such and such a day.

I would definately use a different dog. Sometimes nature knows best, and the 2 mated animals (not just dogs) just don't produce offspring. There might not be anything wrong with either dog or bitch, or even with the timing. They just don't gel. :-(

If the reading was 4.5 and then 9 nmol/l then she was no where near ready for mating

The one thing I would make a comment on is that my dog has just recently produced  a few litters 1 with 1 in, 1 with 4 . However, both these bitches had 6 pups each and it was down to a bad Vet for one and puppies getting stuck with the other, so on paper his 12 pups look like 5. Maybe the stud dog has actually produced more but there have been dead puppies.

>If the reading was 4.5 and then 9 nmol/l then she was no where near ready for mating

Paris, I'm curious about your level of conviction - perhaps you could explain further.  Pedlee was taking advice from the person conducting the tests, an expert if you will.  What leads you to conclude that she was given the wrong information?

> Pedlee was taking advice from the person conducting the tests, an expert if you will.  What leads you to conclude that she was given the wrong information?

I'd also like to add that this is the first time I've used Idexx and had no reason to doubt that what he was saying was wrong.

I have spoken to the Stud dog owner and he has had a miss recently. She also said that if another bitch mated soon after Esme also misses she will get his sperm levels tested. It may just be one of those things.

This is the potocol I use to interpret Lab results for progesterone in nmol/L ::
0-2  nmol/L           Baseline concentrations too early to estimate ovulation 
3 - 6 nmol /L        Minimum 2 days before ovulation expected however result of 3 - 4 nmol/L may persist for a week or longer before increasing. Earliiest estimating breeding 4 - 6 days but could be longer (re test needed)
7 - 12 nmol/L   Minimum 1 day before ovulation. Estimated window for breeding 3 - 5 days but could be longer  ( re test recommended) 
13 - 18 nmol/L   Ovulation impending or just occurred. Estimated breeding window 2 - 4 days  
19 - 31 nmol/L   Ovulation recently occurred. Estimated breeding window 1 - 3 days
32 - 64 nmol/L   Ova have matured, optimal potential for fertility.  Estimated breeding window  0 - 2 days
65 - 90 nmol/L   Ova have matured but aging, decreased potential for fertility.  Breed  at once
Above 90 nmol/L    Too late 

K

So to be honest any result below 19 - 31 nmol/L  mating/breeding times are only a guess.

Personally I retest until I get a reading of 13 - 18nmol/L which should allow good estimation for natural mating. However for bitches/dogs with suspect fertility would opt for retest again until reached 19 - 31 nmol range for greater accuracy . 

K

Thanks for the figures klb, that makes things much clearer. I will keep testing next time until I know she has ovulated.

Hi I had my girl tested on the tue she was 9 but the folowing day when I had tested she was 22.9 she had more than doubled I had been told Fri to but rechecked I mated her that day wed and again on Fri Will let u know how I get on if I had left it to the Friday I think I would of been to late

I don't know what lab my vets use when they send the blood off but when I have had readings of 9, I have been told she has a bit to go yet.Once it gets to 15 they say go.

After the matings, being a belt and braces person I also have had another test done. This is always very high, forty odd if I remember. This is confirmation that she did indeed ovulate and has enough preogesterone levels to maintain the pregnancy. Don't bother with this after the first litter and only if I have had problems with that particular bitch taking.

> During my reading up on the subject, it did mention somewhere that stud dogs can suffer with temporary sterility following bouts of hot weather. I'm guessing your girl was mated during the recent hot spell?

Absolutely true.  During that record Temperature summer we had about 3 years ago a friend of mine bred her dog to several bitches who all missed.  Obviously concerned she had him tested and he was graded as very fertile, but the person testing said that summer had been so hot that many dogs and other breeds of animals were very low producing.  This dog has since gone on to sire several beautiful litters of quite good sizes.

I think if I was the stud dog owner, though, I would have him checked for their own peace of mind.  Sorry it's happened to you.  If you really like this dog then maybe try again if he tests fertile, or maybe it is nature just telling you this isn't a good match.

I have spoken to the stud's owner who will have him tested if he has missed to another bitch mated at roughly the same time. She also said her other boy had 3 matings at the same time and all have been successful. Both dogs live in the same environment.

Regarding the number of pups...it's the Female who determines how many pups there are. The male is responsible for the sex of each pup. I wouldn't blame the stud dog for a small litter.

But surely if he has a low sperm count (not that I'm saying he has), that would have some influence on litter sizes?

Sounds right to me :-)

Thank you :)

the same thing happened to me missed twice same dog, idexx tested and was told spot on for mating, next time she's in season will get herpes injection and a course of antibiotics , will try her with a different dog if she don't take this time will have her spayed,