> Not sure if I should write this, but this advert left me wanting to do something I shouldn't.....   if this is what goes into making a hybrid dog......  !!!!!!!

'Fraid that is fairly representative of the current dog-breeding sub-culture, where every man and his goldfish think they can make money out of breeding dogs, and needn't bother about what happens to them afterwards. The free-ads etc. are crammed to bursting with ads like these. A truly honest and caring breeder would have the poor lad done, spend some time on re-training him so he was ready to go to a new home (after spending so much time as a useless tool) and THEN find him a home.... possibly privately rather than plastering his unfortunate history over the internet.

I think this is a good link from someone in America
http://www.whitephantomkennels.com/registered-purebreds-vs-crossbreeds/

The Labradoodle Trust website gives a lot of information on this cross breed and basically states the truth of them. Just seen the list of health tests required, blimmin heck, I knew what was required for Labs but not for Poodles, and having to do all of this, wow what a long list of health issues this cross could have if not tested for them.. A potential cripple on your hands.
http://www.labradoodletrust.com/index.html
Remove the link if you wish, but its an honest account stating that they aren't allergy free, no guarentees etc..

recently on a grooming forum i was shocked to read bichon x snauzer pups for £500 and a catchy ' perfect for grooming competitions ' !!!!!!!!!!! 
the whole thread was quickly removed but there were lots of enquirys?? i really think crossbreeding has gone too far now.

> recently on a grooming forum i was shocked to read bichon x snauzer pups for £500 and a catchy ' perfect for grooming competitions ' !!!!!!!!!!!  the whole thread was quickly removed but there were lots of enquirys?? i really think crossbreeding has gone too far now.

That's bizarre. I thought the whole point of grooming competitions was that certain breeds have their own grooming 'standards' (for want of a better expression)? How can you compete with a cross-breed which has no existing style precedence?
(or is that the point - is there such a thing as 'freestyle grooming'??)

there have 'real life ' classes, rolleyes

It just beggars belief sometimes.  That poor poodle.  Thrown out just because her can't make a mongral (sorry first cross lol).  I'd take him just to provide a good home and some love.

>> A Shih Tzu who, bless her little heart, has just whelped 7 brindle pups.
>> I can only imagine the origin of the brindling (hazarding a guess at Staffordshire BULL Terrier),
> No.
>
> Brindle is a very old traditional colour for a shih tzu as are solids.  It is only through taste and manipulation that the favour for a party colour is more desirable.  Shiddie's come in all shades and colours and might I add very healthy little critters.he brindling in the pups coats is very very Stafford like, all over the body (and they're very short haired too), as opposed to a patch or band of colour.

I was unaware that brindle is a colour well known to shih tzu's, however, having seen the pups for myself, I would be very suprised if there wasn't Stafford in there somewhere.
I'll stand corrected if when they're fully grown they look at ALL like Shih Tzu's :)
Regardless of breed, we'll do our utmost, at the very least, to make sure they all go to good homes.

Sorry if I sound sceptical, as where I work, most abandoned pregnant dams or litters we get through have Stafford in their breeding somewhere.

> That poor little angel has been no where near a Staffie lol

As I said, can't say that for sure.  She arrived to us after being abandoned as a stray.

Shih Tzu's may very well be very healthy little critters, as are Staffords for the most part, in their purest, pedigree, health tested form.  But cross the two?  Short noses, wide skulls, short-ish noses, L2Hga, hereditary cataracts, etc (I don't know if there are any hereditary ailments in Shih Tzu's, sorry).... hmmm.. not so sure on the healthy little critters thing then.

Bichon noir??? How ridiculous. I heard of a lady who wanted a black bichon, she ended up with a toy poodle and had it groomed in bichon style - much more sensible!

thats what i thought when i saw it lucydogs- the point of a bichon is that its WHITE! If you want a black dog buy a scottie or affenpincher! those so called 'bichon noirs' are £800 for the females! disgusting

>The breed is arises from pairing a Bichon Frise dam with a Toy Poodle sire but they can only be called Bichon Noir if they are black, anything else is a Poochon and these can be white, off white, brown, silver, or parti coloured.

Ummmm, you're making names up, you can call them all Cyril if you like. 'Twould be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

M.

i agree, the name 'poochon' should be banned too as well as oodles doodles and chipoos. cant people just say poodle cross whatever? i wouldnt mind that

> cant people just say poodle cross whatever?

But then it wouldn't be a 'designer' breed and they couldn't charge megabucks for it. If you want a dog that looks unique visit your local rescue, adopt a dog and save yourself a fortune!

> I was unaware that brindle is a colour well known to shih tzu's, however, having seen the pups for myself, I would be very suprised if there wasn't Stafford in there somewhere.
>

.> Shih Tzu's may very well be very healthy little critters, as are Staffords for the most part, in their purest, pedigree, health tested form.  But cross the two?  Short noses, wide skulls, short-ish noses, L2Hga, hereditary cataracts, etc (I don't know if there are any hereditary ailments in Shih Tzu's, sorry).... hmmm.. not so sure on the healthy little critters thing then'  

Please don't tell me she got caught accidentally on purpose, it would be hard job for a staffie to mount a shiddie given the size variations.  That poor Shiz Tzu

Pure bred Shih Tzu's have no health problems that are common or appear very often.  Cross it with an ill bred Staffie and it will be yet another mongral that people think is healthy.  They would have less problems buying the pedigree version. lool

Hernia's are a big problem in pure bred SHih Tzu's from what I've seen.

> Please don't tell me she got caught accidentally on purpose, it would be hard job for a staffie to mount a shiddie given the size variations.  That poor Shiz Tzu

I'm sorry?  I'm not telling anyone anything, other than the situation as I know it.
As I said, who knows how the little Shih Tzu became pregnant?  Certainly not you nor I.  She is a stray that has been abandoned and is being cared for by one of our members of staff.
Staffordshire bull terriers and crosses thereof can come in all shapes and sizes.  It is not beyond the realm of possibility for any dog to mate with another.
I seem to have hit a nerve mentioning Shih Tzu's I think.
An ill bred dog of ANY breed crossed with another can have it's health problems.

If you base the "pure bred unhealthy - the mongrel healthy" on my eye testing sessions which I have been running for 30 years then I'd have to say statistically all cross-breds what ever their back ground, (from heinz 57 to first crosses like the so called 'oodles') will fail the eye test as I have never yet had a dog from such a background pass an eye test. The pedigree dogs though will pass more often than not.

The reason for this is that I only ever see mongrels when their owners suspect a problem, where as the pedigree dog owners bring them regardless of whether they think there is a problem, also the pedigree dog owners bring them every year for testing. Another reason that pedigree dogs get a lot of criticism is that more is known about their health than mongrels simply because pedigree dogs are always being tested, their owners will go to the vets at the first sign of ill health. Mongrel owners are a mixed bunch, none to my knowledge do voluntary testing for health problems and while some will go to the vet at the first sign of illness, many will try to 'cure' their dogs and hope they get better rather than go to the vets.

Polly, I have said for years that the quotes about "crossbreeds are healthier than pedigrees" were based on unproved statistics.  How many crossbreeds/mongrels have health tests?  Not many, if any, I would guess yet pedigrees are subjected to a host of tests by their 'uncaring' breeders and so there is a huge database of results, good and bad, which are used to condemn them.  Whenever I have to visit the Vet there as many, if not more, crossbreeds than pedigrees in the waiting room.  I would love someone to undertake a serious study of what these healthy animals are there for.  They can't all be there for their vacs :-)

>  Mongrel owners are a mixed bunch, none to my knowledge do voluntary testing for health problems and while some will go to the vet at the first sign of illness, many will try to 'cure' their dogs and hope they get better rather than go to the vets.

I have wondered also if pedigrees receive more boosters(with the resulting health problems associated with over vaccination) than crossbreeds on average? I know whenever a customer's/friend's dog has died(or started fitting,had a heart attack or some other major health problem) shortly after having a booster-the reason given by the vet is often that "well these pedigrees do suffer from health problems" or "its probably been caused by inbreeding".
Thats why I thought it was unfair to show a fitting boxer on PDE and claim the fitting was caused by inbreeding when we don't actually know what caused it-whether it was caused by vaccines-or indeed any one of a number of other possible causes.
Incidently a friend of mine was telling me she tried to talk someone she knows out of mating her cavalier and collie as they had had no health tests done-and sure enough the bitch they kept from this cross has SM.

Not to anyone in particular, but what do you think of this?  I don't know about this charming little dog's health but is there a danger to him because of the breeds in him?  We meet him on walks sometimes, he's a Jack Russell cross Pug.  He has the energy, drive, zip, get up and go of the JRT and the physique of the Pug complete with squashed in muzzle.  It's been very hot and humid.  He still wants to go, go, go but his breathing and wheezing, oh my.  I don't think purebred Pugs are that energetic, are they?  What do you think, is he more at risk than a purebred Pug because of the JRT in him? 

> He has the energy, drive, zip, get up and go of the JRT

So do most pugs including mine who has laryngeal collapse grade 3. Have you ever seen the famous "pug run"?
However sadly due to their conformation, in hot humid weather it can limit them.

As a JRT is also a cross breed you really can't know what is in this mongrel, could be anything that is causing problems.

> Not to anyone in particular, but what do you think of this?  I don't know about this charming little dog's health but is there a danger to him because of the breeds in him?  We meet him on walks sometimes, he's a Jack Russell cross Pug.  He has the energy, drive, zip, get up and go of the JRT and the physique of the Pug complete with squashed in muzzle. 

I know of a collie cross bulldog mating(intentional)-similar kind of thing,a really stupid cross.

I don't want to offend anyone i'm just saying my experience of this in my area which has nothing to do with the health of the resulting pup/dog. 

Unfortunately in the area where we live many people see their dogs as money making machines rather than pets. When we bought our boy - a pure pug (from a KC breeder after 2yrs search), people would say in the street 'he's lovely, you can make loads off of him' when we replied we didn't intend studding him, they said we were crazy. We intended to get him neutered all along and have since done so. (we were also worried he would be stolen for breeding)He is a much loved family pet, and lovely with our young children.
The amature breeders in our area crossbreed for one reason. Mixing a mut or cheaper priced breed with a purebred/ more expensive breed ups the price of the pups and makes them more easier to sell before the next litter.

I know not all breeders think like this, so if you are offended I don't mean you!

Having said this pugs looked a lot different 100yrs ago, were they healthier? If so would crossing them with another breed improve their health and wellbeeing, or should breeders breed for good health within breed? Should show's be judged on health and wellbeing rather than visual characteristics?

Should show's be judged on health and wellbeing rather than visual characteristics?

They are, every schedule should have the following on the cover:

"In assessing dogs, judges must penalise any features or exaggerations which they consider would be detrimental to the soundness, health and well being of the dog."

I am not naive enough to think that every judge will bear this in mind - change takes time and some of the judges will always be more interested in what is in it for them but most do try to do an honest job.

I am the proud owner of a very gentle and lovely Akita/Rottweiller called Elmo who looks alot like a curly tailed Alsation, if we're making up names should he be a "Rotkit" or an "Akitweiller"?...

Does anybody know if the Guide Dogs for the Blind and Hearing Dogs for the Deaf organisations condone breeders producing cross breeds for their training programs ? I would be very interested to know as I have heard that a cockerpoo breeder is associated with Hearing Dogs for the Deaf by producing litters that are assessed.

Guide Dogs for the Blind produce their own crossbreeds (from health-tested parents, of course), so I can't see how they could object to anyone else doing so.

I presume they would insist on the parents to be health tested. Would they have to do all tests for both breeds then ?

I'd have thought so, so that they can also produce purebred litters as well. Of course, the difference is that these crossbred litters aren't being produced for sale, but for a working purpose. If they don't turn out to be good working dogs then the cross won't be repeated.

Should show's be judged on health and wellbeing rather than visual characteristics?

That's very good news, I don't show myself. Maybe when the children are all grown and i have the time.
By that time i expect there will be all kinds of new breeds around..

>Should show's be judged on health and wellbeing rather than visual characteristics?

How can you judge health without a full vet check?

So why did they go down the cross breed route then when they have been using quality Pedigree breeding stock that are proven to be more than suitable for the job ?

As far as i could work out the Guide dogs found the Labrador the best guide dog, but needed a taller dog for a lot of Men and the golden retriever fit the bill, but was inclined to be less steady so that is why they use the cross.

> How can you judge health without a full vet check?

Would it be possible for health test certificates to be shown? Or is that impractical?

Health is really down to the breeding side, (not all shown dogs will not go on to be bred from)and then the results of the breeding are shown.

Whether a dog is fit and sound to the observer is all that is relevant to showing.

No breeder worthy of the name breeds on show wins alone, they will be testing for health, ensuring temperament is correct and than choosing a match that will hopefully produce good looking offspring that will win, work well etc.

A dog and it's offspring can be banned from registration if it bites someone at a show, and a blind (not sure about deaf) dog are not supposed to be put up, and of course an unsound one should not win, as it won't conform to the standard.

So what needs to happen is to ensure that the potential show dogs are the result of health tested parents.

As far as i could work out the Guide dogs found the Labrador the best guide dog, but needed a taller dog for a lot of Men and the golden retriever fit the bill, but was inclined to be less steady so that is why they use the cross.

Surely redesigning the harness would be the better option as crossing would dilute the benefits of using just the Labs ?

I think it's a little more complex than that LOL, perhaps they needed a bit more bounce too.

This has become a difficult to follow thread but I agree about the crossing of guide dogs I too was told that the cross was to try and get a dog that was more suitable for some people for whom the Lab was not the best option, I have been told that in the beginning the cross between the Lab and poodle was tried to get a dog suitable for those with an allergy, it did not work. Not sure why they do not use a standard poodle may be upkeep costs. The guide dog people are trying to produce a working dog suitable for purpose, what it looks like is the last thing on the list it is its compatibility to the blind person who will have to use it they are aiming for.

Back to the show ring, it is not possible for a judge or a vet to see internal problems but you can see constructional ones, also dogs with unclean eye, hernias, poor breathing, skin conditions, too many or deep wrinkles, badly formed ears, bad mouths and inability to move correctly or shut their mouths. You are also aware if a dog is withdrawn or 'flat' is aggressive or lame. You can also see these faults walking up the road behind your neighbourhood crossbreed. I can assure you that no matter who you are if you show a dog that is feeling unwell or unwilling you are wasting your time.

>Surely redesigning the harness would be the better option as crossing would dilute the benefits of using just the Labs ?

They've found that the pure labs tend to be too small and not enough have the suitable temperament for the role as a guide dog; crossing them with goldens (the most successful cross) produces a slightly larger and more successful (so more economical) working dog. They try all sorts of crosses to see if they can be even more successful; curly-coated retriever x lab was another experiment I remember.

>Would it be possible for health test certificates to be shown? Or is that impractical?

That would rule out all the puppy classes, for example, because hip-scoring can't be done before 12 months.

Also all the late onset problems.

So why did they go down the cross breed route then when they have been using quality Pedigree breeding stock that are proven to be more than suitable for the job?

i think they produced the so called 'labradoodle' for blind people with allergies. why didnt they stop the breeding programme when it was realised that the new 'mix' still moults and causes allergies? a lot of people jumped on the bandwagon to make money

Only tonight advertised in my local paper, goldendoodles, low to non-moulting at a staggering £800 each

Are there any pedigree breeds today that originate from crosses?

> Are there any pedigree breeds today that originate from crosses?

All of them ?? :)

The Parson Russell is a relatively new breed and there will be others that in the distant past were developed from crossing other breeds but in the past it was not undertaken as it is now - cross two breeds and think of a cute name - they were developed in large kennels and were not just cross breeds the idea was to produce a new breed to fulfil a need, in other words the first cross was not repeated all the time but a breed was developed towards the blue print that was laid down before the exercise was undertaken. This was usually undertaken because of local need, because the dog was required to work in a particular terrain or a dog of a particular hight and temperament was needed.

In the past most dogs were kept as tools and like tools you need the right one for the job and if it did not exist then someone would set about breeding to work towards what was required but as I said earlier it was not a matter of cross breeding it was far more complicated than that and would require out breeding and in breeding and re-crossing to produce what was wanted.

I would disagree, in the main breeds developed from basic types and each type was then subdivided into slightly different types until you had breeds.

So for example our ancestors as far back as the Egyptians had dogs of Molloser type, earth dog types (short legged), greyhound type, and in colder climes Spitz types, and warmer climes dingo like short coated types like modern pariah dogs and the Canaan is a modern version..

Our Shepherd breeds in Europe were largely developed from the Spitz types, with some of the molloser types in the mountain areas.

Not that many breeds were developed from crossing actual established breeds, most were a refinement of regional variation of certain types, like terriers sheepdogs, Spaniels, retrievers etc.

A modern example of this is the split into American and English cocker Spaniel, and you could almost count the English working cocker as a separate breed based on physical type.

Not sure if you were replying to me Brainless but I did not intend to suggest that all breeds developed that was far from it would be like saying a wolf was crossed with an African dog to produce a Dingo, each of those breeds developed on its own and many of our breeds today developed the same way as do wild animals.

Nope didn't reply to yours but Olives.

A more recently developed breed is the Cesky Terrier. If crossbreeds are healthier then the Cesky must be one of the healthier pedigree dogs?

Parson Jack Russells have been around for a long time and they had their own club which held their breeding records, long before KC recognition they were exhibited at Hunt shows. I have in the past before they were KC registered handled these terriers at hunt shows.