hi there,i want to pick your brains,especially cav people but also anyone else- white on the chin of a whole colour,how much of a problem will it be,a) for showing and b) for breeding in the future,will it be likely to come out in future generations? i'm also assuming you'd see lack of pigment where the white is at birth? any advice gratefully received.

You will not be able to show whole colours must not have any white on at all. As for breeding as long as the wholecolour has no parti colour in the line.you mate to.There should not be any white. My wholecolours have abit of white there pigment is nice and black.

A white chin ( as opposed to a few hairs) is categorised as a miss mark and will be the product of a parti to a whole colour.

It will breed mainly well coloured whole colours if it is mated to a whole colour

and to a parti colour it should produce heavy marked partis with no  acceptable whole colours .... but this is just a speculation as some matings are a law unto their self.

Most modern day whole colours are just that....... wholecolour to wholecolour for generations. Few show breeders mix them with partis.

thanks for the reply, asking for friend as was offered a wholecolour with a white mismark and i was concerned as to wether she would pass on the white marking in future generations.

thanks toolz,youre right, pup is result of wholecolour to blen,plus pic of older sister by same dog ,also has same white chin.(oh, been told has a white flash on chest too,both of them) is it better to steer clear and go for a better marked one in future?

A wholecolour should be just that.....wholecoloured - no white.

A tiny thin line on face or chest will often go but almost always signifies a whole to parti mating, unfortunately a much loved mating by puppy farmers because in some cases (and particularly in their case) it can produce all 4 colours albeit mismarked pups - it means you can use any old dog and you have all the colours for the customers :-(

There are exceptions to this in the hands of experts but a rare occurence.

I've seen people do pretty well in the ring with rubies with white chins and chests. If this puppy has just a tiny mark on the chin, it will probably largely disappear. If it's a large white mark and the chest too though, you will be disadvantaged if you show. Interesting that so many people here are saying that parti to wholecolour is a bad thing, I know many reputable breeders who do it and always thought it was ok as long as you know what you are doing. I wouldn't do it myself as I am just a novice breeder. My tricolour girl had a ruby mother and apart from slight ticking she is perfectly marked and has 6 BOB at open level, so I don't think parti to whole is bad if done by someone knowledgeable. I'm aware it's a big nono in my other breed American cockers, but this is the first time I've heard it mentioned in Cavaliers. Make sure your puppy's parents have had all their health checks, whether you go with the mismarked litter or hang on for a better one.

I agree with LucyDogs. I know of several well respected Show kennels who breed parti to wholecolour litters. I have done it myself and as a fan of widening the gene pool (on the basis of HEALTH) I disagree totally that it is a bad thing. I think it is on this basis that more good breeders are now willing to consider parti to wholecolour matings. So long as you know your pedigrees then you can minimise the risk of bad mismarks. A little bit of white on a chin is nothing serious at all (purely cosmetic) and I think if the pup in question is good quality then it could be shown quite successfully. Some judges will penalise for it of course.
My B&T bitch pup has a tricolour Mum (her grandmother was ruby) and a ruby sire (from a strong wholecolour line). All 6 pups in the litter were B&T as I anticipated, with just minimal flecks of white. I would not consider mating this little bitch to a particolour though as that would produce mismarks. I will find a quality dog from a wholecolour line for her when the time is right.
I also bought in a ruby last year - blenheim Mum ruby sire. Both parents from top quality lines. She has a tiny white mark on her chin, you only have to glance at her to see she is from sound quality breeding and the bit of white really is insignificant.
I think it would be silly to write a pup off just for a bit  of white on chin and chest. The white will diminish over time anyway.

thanks for the replies,although i have a charlie,i didnt feel i had the experience to comment on cavs,which is why i put the post on for my friend..i was unsure how much the white would affect a) the showring and b) passing on the white in future.the pup is a b/t from b/t to blen.

Have to state I know nothing of breeding or judging CKCS but if I did the markings would be the last thing I took into consideration providing the exhibit had type, was well made and moved correctly a small miss mark would not worry me and providing there was not a better example I would place by type, conformation & movement and ignore a small amount of white. It is true if the miss mark is such as to make the exhibit 'not to type' then that is a different matter.

Just wanted to add that as a little pup my ruby bitch also had some white on chest as well as on her chin. The white on her chest has mingled in with the ruby and basically it justs as though that part of her chest hair is a lighter ruby, not white.

I too know of very successful breeders who mix parti and wholecolour lines and thats why I said
"There are exceptions to this in the hands of experts"

I intend to mate one of my parti girls to a whole colour soon but as I was replying to the OPs question about a white chin (and from that I deduced mixed colour breeding) I answered about its chances of success in the ring and its likelyhood of breeding further mismarks.

I expect to get mismarks but as this will be a health breeding I will keep one to breed on.

My point to Royanrumble was the litter was possibly a convenience litter..ie the 2 parents were available.

The point about markings being secondary in the show ring......... depends on the breed and at £25 a class why throw your money away to make a point?

> a small miss mark would not worry me and providing there was not a better example I would place by type, conformation & movement and ignore a small amount of white

In a breed where MPB can have over 30 exhibits there are often several who conform to your requirements so it can come down to finer points.

there are often several who conform to your requirements

I'm sure you are right, but I would put movement before marking any day and would be delighted to see several with good movement in one class, I did say I was not a judge of CKCS and therefore not aware of their high standard.

Health has and always will be my first priority in my breed. If a little bit of white on the chin of my bitch goes against her in the ring, then so be it. It isn't the be all and end all.

"but I would put movement before marking any day"

This is what I have been taught along the way.

> but I would put movement before marking any day"
>
> This is what I have been taught along the way.

Yes if there were only two in a class perhaps and the better mover was a mismark but this seldom happens and there are often many to fill the top places.

The OPs question was "i was unsure how much the white would affect a) the showring and b) passing on the white in future.the pup is a b/t from b/t to blen"

The health of Cavaliers is a whole other thread.

thanks for all the replies,i have passed on the advice and they feel that as so many people who show,also breed, theyd rather start with a well marked,health tested pup rather than one with a slight mismark which may or may not go against her.

Of course, if you are buying a puppy to show or breed from you buy the very best you can.

Absolutely Nova.

I would also add that the health of this breed is entirely relevant to this thread.