Do bitches REALLY need to have litter before spaying? Where does this idea come from?

My daughter has recently become mum to a nicely bred giant breed that her breeder tells her will require a couple of years of growth and seasons before spaying.

Several of her 'knowing' friends have told her that a bitch 'needs' to have litter before spaying, where does this idea come from?

An old wife living in cloud cuckoo-land.

Needs to mature yes, need a litter no.

No bitch "needs" to have a litter.  Spaying once they are mature has many health benefits.

No bitch "needs" to have a litter.  Spaying once they are mature has many health benefits.

Thats what I told my daughter because that is what I think but I wondered where the 'cloud cuckoo land wife' got her ideas from.

Can anyone give reasons WHY they dont need a litter?????
Ie
detrimental effect, no advantage,cost etc???????
Do bitches that have had a litter less likely to have pyometria or somethng else?????
As pyometria is the only thing I can see but that is also solved by spaying at 2 years oold.
Sorry just thinking out loud!!!
Lea :)

Can anyone give reasons WHY they dont need a litter?????


Yes,  complications happen and they do occasionally die in labour or whelp side affects. 

Do bitches that have had a litter less likely to have pyometria or somethng else?????
  Nope that is untrue.

Forgot to add that the two bitches I know that took pyometra, took it after they were mated. Never had pups both had to be spayed. One was mine and one was my freinds.

Think that is it for now Lea :-)

Old wives tale, yes they should mature, but like Nova says, litters are not necessary.

There are plus and minus on both sides if we are honest with ourselves. There is no question that an un-spayed bitch may develop pyrometry but we should not loose sight of the fact that being un-spayed is the natural state and that although you will hear of a number of bitches who develop the infection it is certainly not every bitch and it is not usually fatal providing the owner is aware of their dogs state of health.

By the same standard spayed bitches can also have problems with their health and well-being caused by being spayed and although such effects may not be live threatening they can effect the quality of live. It is a very big decision we take when we decide to put our beloved bitch on the operating table and we should make that decision on facts and not hear say, old wife's tales and pressure from others including vets.

There are also plus and minus when you consider putting a bitch in whelp. Yes, it is the natural way for an alpha in a pack to have young but not the underlings although it is normal for the underlings to have phantoms in order to help with the nursing or take over if the whelping bitch dies.

Agreed our bitches are far removed from the wild canine who run in packs but their basic reproductive urges are still there and it is just as 'normal' for a bitch to have a litter although more normal for them not to. Mated bitches do die in partition, they do have to have C sections, they do have still births, they have miss-matings and miscarriages they can all so get infection including pyrometra from the mating. Alongside the bitches that are whelped are the hundreds of bitches that are not and that state is totally natural although if it is because they are spayed then of course it is not, as not only has the reproductive ability been removed but also the female hormones that are produced by the ova.

SORRY just re-read my two posts and realise I let the spell check take over, amongst several errors I see I have said Partition - I meant parturition but I guess you will realise that.

Speying can cause the dog to gain weight and has been considered a pre factor for cushings disease.  Unfortunately I do know of speyed bitches that have had this and most had not had a litter before.

i don't always believe research but the majority that stated this was high, how they link it I don't know.

I don't see the point of speying unless needed for medical reasons but that's opinion, we're all entitled to one lol.  I also don't think that they have to have a litter either.  My old girl is perfectly fine and has not been speyed or had a litter, she's almost 14 now.

If we all do or didn't do things because something could happen, nothing would ever get done, including women have babies all teh auguments for what could happen to a dog can happen to a woman yet we still do it.

> women have babies all the arguments for what could happen to a dog can happen to a woman yet we still do it.

I don't think comparing the dangers of a woman having 21st century pre-natal care, birth and post-natal care with a bitch bred by a novice owner is really relevant. The fact is there are far too many unwanted dogs in this country already - why add to the problem by breeding when you haven't a clue what you are doing (not saying you don't know what you are doing here).

If you have no plans to breed then it makes sense to have a bitch spayed as we all know accidents do happen, often with the local wandering mongrel and yet more unwanted puppies are added to the pile. If you are not breeding to add something to the breed then why bother? I'm all for spaying pet bitches without them having a litter, it does no apparent harm and saves us from yet more poorly bred dogs on the street and in rescue.

Simple answer, NO!

Speying can cause the dog to gain weight It is the amount of food you give a dog that will determine it's weight. People need to be aware that you would more than likely ( not with all bitches) have to adjust the food intake down post spaying.

Spaying can cause the dog to gain weight

Whilst this is true the main thing seen that looks like fat is the change in shape -  a spayed dog, either sex, develops a menopausal figure, normal in the human female because the our reproductive time is limited but the bitch is fertile from the first season to death and therefore should not develop a thickened mid region but if spayed they do unless their food is limited to something less than needed when their latter years are reached.

Menopausal figure ! hmm my doctor just tells me I am overweight due to less excercise and more eating, he wont have it that a lot of women are sort of rounded at menopause lol  Do you think that applies to dogs ?

Do you think that applies to dogs ?

From my experience some are lucky enough to retain their figure without the benefit of female hormones but the rest of us and bitches have an attack of the blob particularly in the region of the last ribs.

ah the blob! think I am being swolled by it lol

Can I just ask what you all mean by 'mature'?

You say a bitch should be mature before spaying? My vet is of the opinion that after the first season but before the second is the ideal time for spaying. Apologies for these questions if they seem simple but having just got my first bitch I'd like to know all the information before I make such a big decision.

I did wonder if having a dog was the easier option!!

Fully developed and finished growing.

Bit like a 12 year old girl may have started menstruating but won't have yet finished devloping into a woman.

A good deal depends on the breed, some are indeed mature between the first and second seasons but other may be between the third and fourth. You are best to wait for full maturity in both body and mind, they need to have fully developed the breed shape including the head and have gone through the teenage stage.

> hmm my doctor just tells me I am overweight due to less excercise and more eating

Mine too.  It's not my fault either! 

I just went from puppy fat to middle age spread.  :-)

> My vet is of the opinion that after the first season but before the second is the ideal time for spaying.

I agree with Nova that it very much depends on breed.  With the smaller toy breeds it does seem to be fine after one season.  I usually tell my new bitch owners to book in for 12 weeks after the start of the first season.

However, it's more than likely not what a Lab owner would advise.

>> hmm my doctor just tells me I am overweight due to less excercise and more eating
> Mine too.  It's not my fault either! 
>
> I just went from puppy fat to middle age spread.  :-)

We must be litter sisters lol.

With Boxers you'd be waiting an awful long time for mental maturity ;) :)

As already advised it depends alot on breed and to some extent the individual.
As some are slower to mature (physically) than the 'average' norm for their breed.

For eg with a Boxer most don't reach physical maturity until 18months-3 years.
So it's a big time frame. I'd say for Boxers to wait until at least 12 months and hopefully if
possibly to 18 months before having males castrated. With bitches again at least 12-18 months
and after they've had at least one season.

Not everyone can do this but it's certainly my own preference for my breed.
This is what I also advise anyone that enquires when I've manned our breed stand at Discover Dogs etc.
But it's best done case by case as some dogs aren't 'average' cases ;)
Certainly not happy with the very early push by vets to get pets neutered ASAP before they've even had chance to physically mature. But the also hope that most people are 'dog savvy' and can cope with a bitch in season but sadly some aren't and so would it be better for the bitch to be spayed early rather than have an accidental litter as a pup/junior?

I would think it would bebetter to have a bitch/dog neutered early if the owner is not a you put dogsavvy and able to cope with  and entire dog and avoid the oopsdaisy litter. Personally I would go for later rather than early but would always have my dogs neutered at some point I would not breed and prefer not to deal with an entire dog throughout its life .
As for the one litter idea a definite NO ! from this corner.
Ah Sunshine litter sisters LOL

I have  2 neutered males and a female plus 1 bitch I breed from (ist time lol).

Although most people dont agree with this I have never had an animal neutered before the age of 18 months (they are not fully mature util then), BUT in saying that I have never allowed any of my 6 cats or my other dogs to breed. Its murder trying to keep them from breeding but worth it! I mean I have 3 cross breeds (I hate the word mutt or mongrel makes tham sound worthless), and I wou;d hate for them to have a litter and the pups end up in the wrong hands, be used for fighting neglected or end up in a pound because ther not as cool as the rotty down the road!

A dog can be castrated from 6 months though (varies depending on the vet) and a bitch can be spayed after her first season!

Breeding and entirety do not have to be synonymous. 

A dog or bitch can be entire their whole lives without breeding if owned and managed responsibly. 

Though it is largely acknowledged it is on balance in a bitches interest to be spayed before middle age if not used for breeding, as this will remove the risks of Pyometra and lessen the incidence of mammary tumours.

Best bet is to go to your vet and ask his/her advice. 

If your referring to neutering often the Vet does not give a balanced view, many want to neuter everything regardless of any need.

Unlike humans - dogs dont miss not being able to have a litter,
unless its for the betterment of the breed, then i dont see any point in breeding from any dog at all,
the dog population is allready over streched, so why add to it more.

There are pros and cons to neutering, especaly large breeds - it does however depend on the breed in question,
i never used to get mine done, except males - but have some what changed my mind in the last year or so
when with in a year, i ended up having to have 3 of my bitch's go in for emergency spay's
due to pyometra, in march i also lost one of mine (unspayed), due to inflammatory carcinoma
which is non operable - would she have devoloped it if she had of been spayed - who knows,
she was just short of her 15th birthday when she died.

However on the down side, one of my girls who has been spayed, has now developed incontance,
they are all older dogs, so it could just be one of them things with old age, but who knows,
neather of my spayed girls have put on weight at all, and i have never had to adjust their food.

my deerhound - im still decideing on what would be best for her, shes coming up for being 2
so still plenty of time to decide, as i wont even think of getting her done till shes at least 4 years old.

You can still keep entire animals and not breed from them.  That applies to most of the male dogs I am acquainted with, where there really is no advantage to the dog in being neutered, the situation with bitches is more complex with definite advantages health wise as well as some disadvantages.

As far as bone cancers go the evidence suggests neutered animals are more at risk, but any dog reaching 15 has to die of something, LOL ;). 

I had my dogs done as it was easer for me, two male dogs in a household of 7 entire bitch's
it was sending them loopy and they were competing against each other and marking,
so it had to be done, it also ment that when they were in season i didnt have to mess about seperating any of them.

Yes old dogs do have to die of something, but saying she was fit and healthy
not even a hint of joint problems, no teeth problems, sight and hearing still verry good -  even the vet commented and thought she was younger
than she was, for her to get inflammatory carcinoma - which is an aggressive and painfull type of brest cancer,
was a bit of a blow.

Exactly you did what was best in a multidog multi sex household. 

Others may be able to separate or opt to get the bitches spayed instead,b ut neutering is not necessary for most male dogs, that are in households where there are no entire bitches.

Just in case you thought I was making light of your girls distressing condition of course a painful illness is not what we would wish for, but as I said to reach 15 was pretty good, just poor luck as to what carried her off.

With the advances in medicine vaccination etc, Cancer is most likely to affect our pets as it does us unless a major organ fails first.