is it just me or is it sad to see anything crossed with a poodle for £700 on a free add site and pure KC reg poodles for under £500? does anyone really pay that for these crosses? isnt it obvious they are only being bred for money?

Unfortunately it is a sad fact that the GP seems to be suckers for anything they are told is rare or bred to be fitter than the pure breeds. We know it is nonsense but most people want a puppy, want it now and have a vague recollection that there was a television program that said that pure breeds were all sick and malformed and crossbreeds were all fit and worth the money. Not true, but since when has the truth stopped anyone doing what they think is best and there are always those only too ready to grab a sucker by the hand and stick the other in their pockets.

I looked on the Pet Plan puppy finder site and was gob-smacked at the prices for 'crossbreeds', even just listed under that title let alone the silly designer names.

THere was a time when Labradoodles were around £1,400 an people were paying this stupid price¬!

> THere was a time when Labradoodles were around £1,400 an people were paying this stupid price¬!

Were they not advertised as allergy free and don't shed hair.

A fool and their money are easily parted!!!!!!!!!!!
Make a cute name and people will think they are worth the extortianate moneys for a cross breed.
I could make my 2 and adbertise them as a 'Cockrott' and am sure could name the price!!!! The fact that both are neutered, the rottie got serious hip displacier,cocker is ok, but why would I cross mate but as its got a 'unique' name I could name the price!!!!!!
Again

A fool and their money are easily parted!!!!!!!!!!!
Lea :) :)

'Cockrott'

LOL hilarous. :D :D

> 'Cockrott'

Or get even more demand by using one of the bull breeds with a Shih Tzu and call them a Bull.........

I saw some Shihtzpoos avertised recently (think on one of the agility sites) .... I'd be inclined to re-arrange some of the initial letters to give a true description :-( They were up for grabs for something like £650!!!

my brothers mother in law paied £700 for her labadoodle, the breeder (term used lightly) asured her it would exactly like its labradoodle parents with the shaggy coat and beard, would be easy to train, calm and never shed. I did warn her. he looks nothing like his parents, hard to train as he has the attention span of a nat (2 trainers have given up on him), is hyper and very nervous and sheds loads. needless to say when the tryed to contact the breeder again they didnt want to know and wont answer there calls. Its a shame as i think he is a loverly dog and with a bit of training could be fantastic but they now hate him as they cant handle him and are dissapointed he doesnt look like his parents.

heres a photo of him
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2541/4026711880_0369ef5e2e.jpg

Chuff, don't get me started on daft cross breeds, and the second anyone posts and says that they're healthier than pedigrees, I wish someone would tell my pure bred kc registered bitch that her breed suffers from joint problems and eye defects, so how on earth she can jump 3' in the air from a sit with those terrible joints is beyond me!!!  

There is now a Labradoodle Rescue, if you just Google the Labradoodle Trust, with very good information about the myths surrounding the poodle type cross breeds.  It is unfortunate that Joe Public are misled into believing that cross breeds are healthier and longer lived than pedigrees, complete bunkum, if you want a longer lived pedigree there are many to choose from.  It is a shame that some are not as long lived, but you just can't compare when a dog may have a very healthy lifestyle and live to it's expected lifespan, and say all cross breeds are healthier just because generally they have a longer life.  Of course they do, when you look at the majority of cross breeds they are generally between one dog that will have a longer lifespan than the other, duh?! 

We've got a dog out on foster at the moment from the shelter.
A Shih Tzu who, bless her little heart, has just whelped 7 brindle pups.
I can only imagine the origin of the brindling (hazarding a guess at Staffordshire BULL Terrier), but at work, we're managing to come up with some rather marvellous (tongue firmly in cheek) cross breed names.  Aah, (for JeanSW in particular :) ), the most popular is a Bull Shih*
Which rather fits in with our general view of the rescue situation.

> A Shih Tzu who, bless her little heart, has just whelped 7 brindle pups.
> I can only imagine the origin of the brindling (hazarding a guess at Staffordshire BULL Terrier),

No.

Brindle is a very old traditional colour for a shih tzu as are solids.  It is only through taste and manipulation that the favour for a party colour is more desirable.  Shiddie's come in all shades and colours and might I add very healthy little critters.

That poor little angel has been no where near a Staffie lol.

If I can ask a really daft Q then - If these new 'Breeds' are so 'In' and people are paying over the price of the standard pedigree breed, am I right in thinking that they really are just crossbreeds and therefore cannot be KC registered? I would also assume then, that the relevant health testing would probably not have been done - or how can they know what may affect the subsequent pups? Even as one poster has experienced, in terms of looks or personalities cannot be guarrenteed.
(I hope that makes the sense that it did in my head LoL?)

Given the fact that in my breed, I am aware of the problems that the breed can suffer with, and then the time I took to find out about them, and to find a good breeder for the relevant health tests, I find it hard to believe that this practice has become so popular. You are still buying a dog with no known health tests or history as such. We took our pup to puppy classes where a lady was there with two litter brothers (Ladbradoodles) and she was unhappy about them being uncontrolable and only interested in each other! She bought them both because 'They both looked so cute we couldn't decide'. Her biggest problem was them taking absolutly no notice of her! I know I wouldn't take on two males Dobes at the same - no matter how cute they were together!!! LoL

i once really upset a labradoodle owner in park-completely by accident. 
she told me she was going to breed her bitch and i incocently asked what to?
got very huffy and said another labradoodle of course!!!
mm no of course about it I'd have thought....
I saw the litter while after at about 8 weeks--very pretty set of large mongrels . some short coated, some shaggy some fluffy . pretty enough but i think not worth the £500 each she was getting for them.  no health tests done as not needed for a cross i was assured as naturally more healthy.....
scary..

Now that is scary :o(

They are cross breeds, mongrels, heinz-57's, whatever you want to call them, people do get snooty about the different terms used to describe them, apparently a mongrel is for a dog where the origin isn't known, I always interpreted the same three phrases as meaning a non pedigree dog of some sort of cross, indeterminate or not..... I'm too old to change my ways now ;)

People who cross breed who have done appropriate health tests are like rocking horse poo!  One of the arguments used by these 'breeders' is that cross breeds are more healthy than pedigrees, so there is no need to health test!!! 

Don't even get me started, there is a page on facebook with a woman who delibratly bred her Gsd & Lab (although she denys it now) she even has set up a chipin account so people can name a puppy & donate to her puppy costs & vet bills & to pay for the dogs she rescues, they believe cross breeds are healthier than pedigrees, i give up when you ask any questions you end up with a torrent of abuse

>People who cross breed who have done appropriate health tests are like rocking horse poo!  One of the arguments used by these 'breeders' is that cross breeds are more healthy than pedigrees, so there is no need to health test!!!


Think people mistake hybrid vigour with good health, unfortunately even with plants creating H1 can be disappointing and you do not get that that was hoped for. As for breeding one cross breed with an identical cross breed the result will always be a mongrel. To create a truly new breed takes great skill and many years and requires much crossing and breeding back into the line, something in its self that requires skill and experience.

Why do people want crossbreeds and mongrels, I really am not sure, it can't be because they are cheaper, it is not because they know what they will look like, not for temperament, or because they have generations of stability behind them. It can only be for one of two reasons and both are debatable and in most part untrue, the first is they are rare and the second they are promised or believe that the dog is healthy and will not require expensive vet attention.

The only true thing one can say about a crossbreed is that they are unique and a total luck of the draw companion.

Typical of mating two crosses together the results in a second generation cross are even less predictable than the first generation.  Basically he looks like a poor looking Labrador with the light build of the poodle.

* I just replied to the last in the thread, not aimed at anyone in particular :)

I agree with the ridiculous names and prices being charged for cross breeds. What's even more sad is that in a few months there will be even more of those up for rehoming (I hate looking through ads at dogs, far too many older dog not wanted any more :() In fact our girl who was born in rescue was apparently deliberately bred, gsd/rottie as the previous owner presumed they would make a lot of money because they were excellent guard dogs - which she is, against cats ;)

But what I wanted to ask was what are peoples views on deliberate crosses that are supposedly to make a new breed for health reasons. Such as the Northern Inuit? Someone told me about this a while ago, when looking into it I found it was a german shepherd/malamute/husky. Isn't this now classed as a breed? Yet quite clearly started out as a cross, well more than one cross. Looking at them they look completely different too. I met one on a walk once and it was clear the dog was a gsd x malamute

Not sure if I understand it correctly but I thought a cross breed is the result of breeding two different breeds of dogs but pedigrees, a mongrel the result of crossing any two cross breeds or, a even a pedigree and a cross breed,  and a heinz 57 is the same as a mongrel.

But stand to be corrected.

Some friends of our paid £600 for a Cockerpoo!! its lovely but a mongrel!!! called Finn!

>the Northern Inuit? Someone told me about this a while ago, when looking into it I found it was a german shepherd/malamute/husky. Isn't this now classed as a breed?

Now, it's not a recognised breed (and according to the internal politics and in-fighting of the various sects of the fanciers, it won't be for many many years yet!)

>I thought a cross breed is the result of breeding two different breeds of dogs but pedigrees, a mongrel the result of crossing any two cross breeds or, a even a pedigree and a cross breed,  and a heinz 57 is the same as a mongrel.

A crossbreed is the result of crossing two pure breeds; if there's more than one breed in the mix then it's a mongrel.

I know of a Northern Inuit or whatever their new name is that has severe HD, is blind and has a severe heart problem it's only 1 years old!

> are dissapointed he doesnt look like his parents.

Jo,
I was in the vets the other day and this couple had 3 blackish dogs, all looked different. Apparently they were all Jack x Poodles, won't even entertain the idea that they had any silly name.. Someone in the vet asked her why on earth they would want a cross breed, when clearly they are all very different in looks, type and personality. One even looked like a Border x rather than anything else. This couple travelled all over the country to get these 3, all from different people selling them.. Madness I tell you..

I have a colleague who wanted a Husky, that is all he talked about and then decided he couldn't wait for one and ended up with a Lab x Poodle, who is the tall shaggy type dog who is very difficult to train and sheds a lot.

As for the link Jo, can't say i'd ever say that was crossed with any Poodle.. Defo Lab x with something.

Perhaps because of where I live I have come across several of these GSD crosses (called by different names depending on who breeds them) and have to say if they are a true cross section the results are anything but healthy. They seem to have inherited the worst health problems from the breeds used to produce this mongrel, epilepsy seeming particularly common. Have also heard of behavioural problems and one that was down right dangerous.

I recall reading somewhere that hybrid vigour only applied when two species are crossed, rather than two types?  Mind you anyone visiting this house would soon be put straight on the notion that crossbreeds are healthier, as my two GSDs are perfectly healthy, and only ever visit the vet for a once-over once a year, and Jack, the mongrel (my husband, who bought him before we got together, thinks it's hilarious that we could call him a rottador!!) has severe epilepsy and is nearly blind.

At our breed club, we do all breed training, we've had a couple of labradoodles in, one just looked like a sort of curly mongrel and the other looked like a badly bred schnauzer!  We've had Northern Inuits, Utonagons and without fail, the owners insist that their dogs are a breed and healthier than GSDs. :Rolleyes:

Oh, by the way, just thought I'd mention that Jack's epilepsy is currently well controlled and is a lovely happy boy who loves his walks and his food!

> A crossbreed is the result of crossing two pure breeds; if there's more than one breed in the mix then it's a mongrel.

If you register a mongrel on the KC activity register, the registration certificate states the breed as 'crossbreed'.

> I recall reading somewhere that hybrid vigour only applied when two species are crossed, rather than two types?

You can get hybrid vigour when crossing two separate 'types' which have been kept pure in their own gene pools for some time. The theory is that over time, 'inbreeding depression' sets in with any closely-bred/line-bred strain, which is immediately lost when crossed to a different strain. All it means is they are a little more robust than the parent lines and perhaps long-lived, but that's a moot point in dogs where longevity is subject to breed anyway. And if both parent lines have excellent health and longevity then you're not going to improve those traits by very much if at all.

Of course if you cross two breeds that get epilepsy, or two breeds prone to HD, or PRA - all you're going to get is epilepsy, HD or PRA of course - no amount of hybrid vigour can wipe away recessives present on both sides.

Thanks for that MsT :-)

> 'Cockrott'

Oh my.... ROFL :)

It's ridiculous!

> Of course if you cross two breeds that get epilepsy, or two breeds prone to HD, or PRA - all you're going to get is epilepsy, HD or PRA of course - no amount of hybrid vigour can wipe away recessives present on both sides.

and of course once you go into the next generation then even if a problem was only in one breed it will be spread to the gene pool to be reproduced.

It is one reason some breeders in the past were so loathe to go outside their won known lines,a s often an out cross could introduce something bad that didn't show up for generations, where the bad traits of the inbred strain were known.

For example these wolfie crosses of varying breed names.

You have husky's with as a breed excellent hips, Malamutes with fairly good,a nd GSD which can be awful.

Put them altogether, of necessity inbreed as gene pool not large, or use every good bad or indifferent animal for breeding, and what you will get is the full range from good to awful,a dn all the traits fo all 3 breeds plus the original dogs whose backgroudn was unknown.

> and of course once you go into the next generation then even if a problem was only in one breed it will be spread to the gene pool to be reproduced.

Absolutely! *insert Thumbs Up emoticon here*
If only genetics was as simple as recessives and dominant genes...... Unfortunately it is not. You can get polygenic inheritance (as HD is thought to be); variable expression and incomplete penetrance, to name just a few variables.

If, lets say, you *did* breed a dog from a line full of genetic faults, to an unrelated one that did not have those same genetic faults, then yes - the F1 (first generation) could well be of better vigour and not have those genetic anomalies (presuming they are recessive, for the most part). It gets tightly tangled and very very awkward when you then start crossing the F1s and F2s among each other or even back to the parent breed. This is the whole case why the breeders of the "wolfalikes" are running into serious issues. I feel for those people who choose those types because they are cross-bred, thinking they are getting something healthier than a pure-bred.

> Not sure if I understand it correctly but I thought a cross breed is the result of breeding two different breeds of dogs but pedigrees

That is correct.  If both parents are pure bred dogs, then pups are cross breeds, not mongrels.

just seen another crazy cross!  its a 'bichon noir' or black bichon frise but really its a bichon cross poodle and therefore a mongrel and guess how much? £750!!!!!!

Wonder if it has had the breed tests!!!!!!!!!!! as there are a few.

> heres a photo of him

I am so sorry but when i opened the link it made me giggle... what a sweetie !

But then I read your comments which are so sad, poor little man..

Can I ask what is quite possibly a ridiculous question :)

As all dogs are, essentially, crossbreeds - if done properly, could new, healthy breeds be achieved from what we are seeing now?

I am no breeder nor expert in genetics and totally agree that the current fashion for expensive crossbreeds is a nonsense - no health checks and apparent little thought given to breeding.

However, if someone, somewhere did give this some thoughtful consideration...could it work??

Yes, but there is a huge difference between crossing to obtain a long term plan - a dog to fulfil a need - and just crossing two breeds to make money.

To develop a breed to perform a particular job takes years and is usually done by tweaking something that exists as in the Patterdale and one of the more recent, the Parsons Jack Russell, I believe the latest 'new breed' to be recognised by the KC.

could new, healthy breeds be achieved from what we are seeing now?

In most cases no - they start with poor examples of a breed and cross it with another and from that point they have failed. No right thinking person would allow their well bred dog to be used for such a haphazard protect based on nothing bar a silly name and a fuller bank balance.

A friend of mine recently bought a Shitzu cross poodle from Harrods (more money that sense) that cost about £1,000.  Dear little thing but really docile and for a pup had absolutely no 'get up and go'.  Anyway, three months down the line after having him neutered, taking him to classes etc she has sent him to be rehomed as he was suffering from separation anxiety and she couldn't cope with it.  Nothing much to add really, but what a throw away society we live in when dogs are bought at such great cost and then got rid of when things get just a litle bit difficult.  They are living creatures with feelings and it makes me so cross when people do this.  She is my friend but i hate what happened to this little dog.  Hopefully he has gone to a better place with people who will love him for who he is and not just as another status symbol to go with the designer handbag!  Phew, that's got that off my chest!

Another sad story, the like of which will doubtless be repeated again & again in this forum unless we educate the general public. Have you done your bit yet ?

Chrissy, think you have hit the nail on the head, once we developed a breed to help with our work or domestic life now we develop a breed to boost peoples egos. Does not say a lot for the most developed breed of all, the homo sapiens, does it.

My sentiment exactly but not just for those who buy designer dogs and get rid at the drop of the hat.  Mine extend to anyone who gets a dog and then gets rid because it no longer serves their purpose/meets their goals/has a problem/needs time spent etc.

We certainly live in a 'throw away', shallow, callous society.

From what ive read these crosses are pron to a few health probelem
Labradoodles - Hip Dysplasia, Elbow Dysplasia, PRA , Hereditary Cataracts, von Willebrand's Disease, Addison's Disease, Sebaceous Adenetis & Epilepsy
Cockerpoos - PRA, Kidney problems & heart problems
Goldendoodles - Hip Dysplasia, Elbow Dysplasia, PRA, von Willebrand's Disease & heart problems

With so many not tested (ive seen a few breeders who say they are testing) i feel sorry for the poor pups who get some of there health problems.

Not replying to anyone in particular but, what do your U.K. pet health care insurers say?  I was astounded to find that here, some demand lower premiums for any kind of cross breed, citing hybrid vigour.  I tend to doubt that would influence the buying public as my guess is that is not something most folks check into before buying a dog, but still, it's pretty interesting.

> I tend to doubt that would influence the buying public as my guess is that is not something most folks check into before buying a dog, but still, it's pretty interesting.

It is interesting. Mine qualifies as a cross-breed, and therefore has lower premiums, but that doesn't take into account any, or all, of the health issues that are common to his parent breeds - epilepsy, HD, cataracts and other eye issues. I understand his sire was tested but his dam was not. Epilepsy cannot be tested for so that has been my biggest worry, although I now know his sire's breeding had none in the line.

I understand some insurers now have an option for some of the Oodle and Doodle crosses.

Not sure if I should write this, but this advert left me wanting to do something I shouldn't.....   if this is what goes into making a hybrid dog......  !!!!!!!

***** who is a white 3yr old Toy Poodle, DL Registered and was purchased as a proven stud dog in March but infortunatly ****** doesn't live up to this title, as he is too soft. *****is a nervous dog and would suit a home that could give him the peace, quite & attention that he loves. We are a family with 4 children & although he is great with the children the noise level seems too much for him. He is a indoor dog & can live outdoors but he prefares indoors. *****, all 12" inches of him does think he is Top Dog & will growl at other male dogs (thats all he does do is growl). It took us a couple of months to win his trust & no doubt the new owner might have the same experience. We had ***** fully vaccinated when we got him, he is good on a lead & loves walks. With reagrds to the "stud" side of *****, he has attempted 4 x bitches (all Cocker Spaniels), he locked with 2 of them (1 appears in pup) & never tyed with the other 2 (photo's available of tye) He stops serving if you try help him in any way. Overall ***** is a really gentle lovable dog & with a bit of patients & understanding would be a credit to his new owner.

Jo

> once we developed a breed to help with our work or domestic life now we develop a breed to boost peoples egos. Does not say a lot for the most developed breed of all, the homo sapiens, does it.

Well said and so true. Summed up for me by, 'handbag dogs' and as disposable.