My mother has asked me to go and look at cocker pups with her tonight, she's had one in the past and at present has 3 other dogs (one very old and little time left).
I have asked her if they have have had any testing but she doesn't know and i know if we go and see them she will say yes to one without any worry of health testing etc. Both mum and dad can be seen, not sure about KC reg my mum didnt ask. She says she just wants a pet but i said you are still entitled to a healthy pet!

What are the main health tests please?
I know what to ask about care etc and to take note of conditions as have had experience in this before plus have bred myself and have my own high standards to compare against.

Copied from the Kennel Club website

And what health screening is relevant for the Cocker Spaniel?
Kennel Club Accredited Breeders must use, or are strongly recommended to use, the
following screening schemes and/or advice for sires and dams:
* BVA/KC/ISDS Eye Scheme - including Gonioscopy
* DNA test prcd-PRA
* DNA test FN
* BVA/KC Hip Dysplasia Scheme
This list is not necessarily comprehensive and you should still ask breeders and refer to breed
clubs about health issues in the breed.
© Kennel Club

Tell Mum buying a puppy in a hurry is not a good idea - the ahh factor takes over common sense - puppy buying should start with phoning one of two breed clubs and visiting at lest 3 breeders - then choose the one you think is the best and as you say does the health tests.

Your quite right that being a Pet is the most important task for our dogs and as near as is humanly possible your entitled to get a healthy puppy.

http://www.cockerspaniel-info.org.uk/health.htm

They should be DNA tested for Familial Renal Disease and PRA.

They should also have clinical eye tests for some other eye diseases mentioned above.

Of course all breeds should ideally also be Hip Scored.

If they are not Kennel club registered they are very unlikely to be health tested either, and of course you don't know the parents identity.

thanks thats what i eventually found!
i rang the breeder and they can kc reg if required. no health tests done as too expensive!

just rung another breeder and no tests done (from kc site)

are they essential??

are they essential??

Well they would be if I were buying a puppy as I can't afford large vet bills in the future.

EDIT: this is one of the reasons I suggest you take your time, finding a breeder who considers health testing a must and would not dream of not registering their pups.

I have just asked a breeder if I can go onto their list for a puppy and the bitch is not due to be mated until the beginning of next year, but I know that should this bitch produce any pups of the sex I require it will be from health tested parents and well socialised and accustomed to domestic noise and activities. It is important as you and the pup will spend some 14 or more years together.

Also do you really wnat to buy from a breeder for whom the health of the puppies they breed is not top priority?

i definatley would want testing done but its difficult getting that across to other people. Have found one that has had the right tests done, sounds a lovely lady and i felt reassured by what she was saying.
some of the others on kc site (not AC breeders) dont seem to know the improtance of the testing.

anyway will make sure she is on the right lines before she sees any!

>i rang the breeder and they can kc reg if required. no health tests done as too expensive!
>just rung another breeder and no tests done (from kc site)
>are they essential??

It comes down to whether you want to take a chance that the pup will be blind by 4 years old ...

> It comes down to whether you want to take a chance that the pup will be blind by 4 years old ...

and or dies of Kidney disease, has hip dysplasia, etc etc.

If all buyers did their research and insisted on health testing then the health and welfare of all dogs would improve and uncaring/uneducated breeders would. either have to improve their standards or be unable to sell their badly bred puppies.

There can never be cast iron guarantees regarding the health of any living being, but the dice should be loaded firmly in favour of it.

Oh please do insist on tests.... my family's first ever dog (bought when I was 6 years old) was a Cocker which I now know came from a Welsh puppy farm. Blind by the age of 4 from PRA. It's heartbreaking.

This thread has set me thinking, my parents had Cockers and it seemed the norm in those days to have to buy about 3 pups before you got one that made it to a year old - how times have changed - proof I think that health tests do matter as does the fact that the dam will be inoculated against the diseases that kill the young and so pass the antibodies to the pup.

have found 2 litters that have been properly health tested but have asked my mother to consider getting apuppy when she's out everyday for 3 hrs in the morning and 2 in the afternoon. I dont think she'll have the energy for a pup so she did mention about a rescue cocker instead but is going to think on things for a bit - Thank goodness!
She's quite impulsive and normally would have just gone out and brought this pup she saw advertised in our local paper and it would have been well looked after but luckily she asked my advice!!!

thank you everyone.

> This thread has set me thinking, my parents had Cockers and it seemed the norm in those days to have to buy about 3 pups before you got one that made it to a year old - how times have changed - proof I think that health tests do matter

Have they really changed though? It's just as easy for a naïve puppy buyer to get an untested puppy farm pup as it was 42 years ago when my parents bought our cocker. If anything its easier, as they are flooding in from Ireland now as well as Wales. It's horrifying to me, that not only has nothing changed in the last 4 decades, it's actually got worse.

Do think some things have changed, most people now know that a puppy should be inoculated and Cocker rage once talked off a lot but now almost rare. And although there are loads of puppy farmers and puppy warehouses far more people are becoming aware that they should at least look for advice.

The biggest problem IMO is that most people will turn to a vet for advice and what do they know about puppy breeding and standard control, most know nothing and are likely to tell someone to go get a cross breed and they then finish up with a badly bred designer dog or the result of a accidental mating that may or may not be healthy. But slowly people do find out and despite the efforts of people who should know better improved breeding is taking place and hopefully will continue to grow.

Hang on, because with cockers what cockers are being tested with it turns out things are a bit different.  For a start with hip scoring, many breeders find this unnecessary as HD doesn't run in the roan lines.  Eye testing, whereas all breeders should now do it, I know there is something like if the dog is tested and clear then the bitch, even if she is a carrier can't pass it on so some breeders just check the stud dogs.  So it's not all cut and dried in the cocker world so I've found!!

>Hang on, because with cockers what cockers are being tested with it turns out things are a bit different.  For a start with hip scoring, many breeders find this unnecessary as HD doesn't run in the roan lines.  Eye testing, whereas all breeders should now do it, I know there is something like if the dog is tested and clear then the bitch, even if she is a carrier can't pass it on so some breeders just check the stud dogs.  So it's not all cut and dried in the cocker world so I've found!!

Not finding your post easy to understand but are you saying that all roan lines return a 0/0 hip score?

And if you do not eye test before you mate how do you know that your bitch is a carrier and what she is carrying and if it is safe to mate with a non carrier how would you know it was a non carrier if the stud is not tested. Think I am correct in saying if you mate a carrier with a non carrier some of the pups will be carriers so how will testing only 50% of the breeding stock improve the breeds health.

As you say not at all cut and dried when breeders will find any excuse not to do the job properly.

> For a start with hip scoring, many breeders find this unnecessary as HD doesn't run in the roan lines.

Sorry all dogs and even wild canids can have hip dysplasia, perfect hips are quite rare, so it is vital to ensure that poor hips do not creep into a breed.

Even in the US where hips are graded English Cockers only have 18% excellent scores, (better than equivalent to 5 total score our system) and around 7% score into the clinical dysplastic range (equivalent to over 25 comparing to our scheme). 

We consider this breed to have pretty good hips, and if nearly 1 in 14 of tested stock (bear in mind these are likely to be from ancestor stock that is tested) have scores outside what most would consider acceptable, then there is hardly room for complacency.

Statistically with recessive traits for every 1% affected there are likely to be 18% carriers of a trait.

Surprisingly the numbers of cockers scored is about 200 more than our breed Brainless, amazing when you consider the numbers registered, in fact I would go further it is disgraceful. Their mean score is the same as ours so if you take the % of the stock scored I think there is plenty of room for concern.

Would ask you a question, the poster said that there is no need to score the roan coated animals as they do not have HD (?) you have studied much deeper than I so how could the complicated mode of inheritance connected to hip problems be connected to coat colour or patten something I have always believed to be a straightforward mode of inheritance - or have I got it wrong?

Not only is their mean score the same as ours, but their range goes up higher than any scored do in our breed, 0 - 96, where ours is 0 - 61.

I can't see how colour could be a factor with HD when all sizes shapes and colours of dogs can get HD.

More likely ti is an erroneous perception.

Perhaps even left over from the days when particular solid colours were popular with 'puppy producers' and the lack of selection for positive traits led to more problems occurring in those than their at the time less popular roan brethren, hardly think this is likely now,a s most 'pet bred' Cockers  have met are now Blue Roan.

It isn't the numbers Hip Scored that given an accurate picture of the state of a breed, but the proportion of the overall population that is tested.

As you say in popular breeds a tiny proportion are health tested so the true picture is not known only the picture in the lines/kennels of those responsible enough to test.

We are lucky in our breed as the true picture is known with more than 20% of the actual KC registered population Hip Scored and eye tested.

I'm sorry but how can someone say Roans don't suffer with HD?  Just like the working faternity believe it's only in show Cockers  Until all of the breed are tested you can't tell.

Our breed is listed in most websites as having a HD problem and our highest score is 42, how can you say with a breed with a highest score in the 90's that it's not in a certain colour?

Thank you Brainless that is rather what I was thinking.

Another matter that confuses me and worries me is the small dogs that have a high occurrence of slipping patella and yet because it is so common they are not concerned, a bit the same as umbilical hernial because there is a high incidence it seems to make people think it is not a problem.

one lady i did ring said that only show cockers are FN tested and that working cockers dont need to be - is this the case? or should all cockers be FN tested as well as eye tests?

is there information in simple terms, so that everyone can understand easily, on all breeds the relevant health tests? So for instance if was wanting a cocker i could very easily find out the health tests required and in a language that could be understood without going into too much depth? Just think it would be a good idea to have this sort of thing available at vets or rehoming centres so people could be educated into choosing the right breeder. My mother had no idea about the health tests and has no access to the internet excpet via me.
I know you can look on the KC site which i did but for some thats not easy to do.

Unfortunately there is no easy way to find out these things and the best way is via the breed clubs particularly if they have a health scheme running within the club. There is no truth in the statement that working dogs do not have problems it is just that they will be pts or re-homed if their health makes then unsuitable for work, the re-homed ones may well then be used for breeding so as I said, no truth.

Can I just point out that I do ALL testing on my dogs regardless of sex or colour but I wanted to post that info to see an honest reaction.  I have been told all that I posted by at least 5 breeders and me wanting one with all the tests was a waste of time/money on everyones part.  Needless to say, My pup came from tested parents.

[Can I just point out that I do ALL testing on my dogs regardless of sex or colour but I wanted to post that info to see an honest reaction.  I have been told all that I posted by at least 5 breeders and me wanting one with all the tests was a waste of time/money on everyones part.  Needless to say, My pup came from tested parents.


What a very sad state of affairs - think that the breed clubs need a smart kick to start sorting this out before someone decides to do it for them

> think that the breed clubs need a smart kick to start sorting this out before someone decides to do it for them

To be fair the link I posted: http://www.cockerspaniel-info.org.uk/health.htm is for the Cocker Breed council website, so the breed clubs are doing their bit as far as pointing out what problems there are.

Perhaps it should be written into the breed club rules as a must do, then again those who do not care about the future health of their breed are probable not interested in breed clubs either. Anyone who says it is too expensive to make sure they only breed from the best perhaps should not be breeding at all, the only reason they are breeding must be for the money and I would not want a pup from such people.

Am coming to this thread late but as you're talking about my breed thought I'd say something. Both the parent club, The Cocker Spaniel Club and the Cocker Breed Council are pro-active in promoting the various health schemes so I'm not sure why the breed clubs are being criticised on this thread? As with any numerically popular breed, the vast majority of Cocker puppies produced in this country come from BYBs and commercial breeders/puppy farmers who don't belong to breed clubs and find it easy enough to sell pups on the usual internet sites whether their dogs are health tested or not (usually not of course). A casual look at the Cocker registrations in the BRS is actually quite scary - responsible show (or working) breeders are very much in the minority now (perhaps they always were) with people breeding willy nilly to produce currently fashionable colours, regardless of health, type or quality. I guess if you have a more specialist breed, it's hard to imagine the huge scale of casual, irresponsible breeding that goes on in the popular breeds. Of course good breeders who health test exist in Cockers but sadly many would-be buyers couldn't care less about health tests as long as the price is right and a puppy is available on demand at the exact moment they want one... and so it goes on.

I think JaneS that is actually what we are saying, that it is a crying shame that the good breeders are in the minority in popular breeds and sadly no matter how small your breed there are those who will breed outside the KC system with no health testing.

We had just four litters registered with the KC until June, chances are there were as many BYB litters in Ireland/UK going through a commercial registry and or kennels.

Breed clubs can only control their own members, and the only sanction available is to expel them, no-one can stop poor breeding as it is perfectly legal.

Most good breeders would like the kennel clubs registration criteria to be stricter, but lets not kid ourselves that this would change anything, it would only ensure that KC registered meant they met the stricter rules, not that dogs overall would be better bred.

The only way to improve the lot of dogs and how they are bred is for people to refuse to buy unless things were done right.

The alternative registries came about because people were unable to register with the KC when they brought in the various restrictions, endorsements etc.

>The only way to improve the lot of dogs and how they are bred is for people to refuse to buy unless things were done right

Absolutely - it's a two way street and until puppy buyers take more responsibility for how they purchase a pup, things will never change. I'm continually giving out advice to people looking for a Cocker puppy on what to look for, what questions to ask and so often they end up getting a puppy from a really bad source because either they couldn't wait long enough for the right litter or "I only wanted a pet" so all the stuff on health testing don't matter, sigh!

What a depressing cycle this is,
Want a puppy want it now!
Only a pet the cheap one is best!
Can't control this dog, or it is always sick!
Re-home or leave it up the park!
Rescue find it not suitable to be re-homed!
PTS

I am sorry but as far as hip scoring goes, only a few cocker spaniel breeders are doing this as it is relatively new in the breed.  So to hang the breeders for not doing this on all their breeding stock it is a bit much. I for instance have a stud dog in a larger breed with Elbow Scoring now the norm and DNA for PRA, but at the age of 7 and ready for retiring I am not going to do it.   The same for PRA and FN DNA testing. Some are now hereditary clear, so keep an eye out for this you can check on the KC health test website.  If your mother is going to have a rescue cocker spaniel, remember all these health tests will probably NOT have been done on his/hers sire and dam.  What about looking around for a ex-breeding bitch who may have been tested for some of these.