Does anyone know of a breed club that will expel a member for not adhering to health requirements set by the club - eg for breeding from an underage bitch, a merle x merle breeding or not hip-scoring etc. Do any clubs have mandatory requirements in this respect?

Jemima

I am not sure but i think to expel a member they have to hold a special general meeting (SGM ) of members and they need 3/4 of the votes to expel a member .but don't quote me lol

Not sure on 'expelling' but some of the staffordshire bull terrier clubs are trying to put in a place a condition of membership whereby members breeding stock must be health tested prior to mating
The SBT Breed Council also acted upon the merle colouration issue in the breed and as a result contacted the KC and this colour can no longer be registered with the KC for the breed

Most clubs have voluntary codes of conducts and Ive yet to see one which has words like Must and Neccessary in it.

It will depend on each clubs constitution but in most cases they will call an SGM if a certain % of the membership request it, at this meeting the matter will be discussed and the person being complained of will have a chance to explain any extenuating circumstances, it will then be put to the vote and the result will then depend on the clubs constitution.

Remember a long while ago a similar thing in our own club but it turned out that what was considered too closer breeding of a bitch was on the advice of a vet so in my mind it should not really have gone as far as a SGM but suppose it can easily get out of hand as the person being questioned may well take the attitude of 'mind you own business', all depends on the skills of the person asking the questions.

Ours is mandatory. 

Thankfully since it has been in place no-one has broken any of the must or must nots.

it would cause the club a lot of expense and angst to expel a member as it would require a SGM as someone mentioned.

We had an SGM a couple of years ago as a member had bred from eye failure parents. That member is still there whereas some members actually left the club. In the end it is up to the members to expel someone they think has gone against the rules. Or not.

> Most clubs have voluntary codes of conducts and Ive yet to see one which has words like Must and Neccessary in it.

NECGB code does as well as lots of should's

9       Stud dog owners must satisfy themselves as to the suitability, breeding and condition of any bitch presented to them, .........

14     Prior to being used for breeding all breeding stock must:

(a) Hold a Hip Score certificate issued under the Kennel Club/British Veterinary Association Hip Dysplasia scheme.

(b) Hold a clear eye test certificate issued under the KC/BVA scheme. The certificate to be dated no earlier than twelve months prior to mating...........

16   a). With immediate effect all breeding stock to be prcd - pra DNA tested and the results known and passed to the NECGB for publication in advance of matings.  In cases of overseas stud dog/bitch for which the status is unknown, UK dog/bitch must be dna tested clear or hereditary clear, the resulting progeny should be dna tested with all registration certificates endorsed by the breeder.

Our BMD club of GB Code of ethics is quite extensive and includeds such wording as "Ensure" and in the Hip/elbow section it states "All breeding stock should be x-rayed for evidence of HD ED and OCD....Breeders shall treat mild cases as they would any other fault and EXCLUDE from their breeding programme dogs with more severe evidence of H/D E/D OCD.
We also have some "Will"'s (Breeders WILL guarantee the health of his or her stock subject to a veterinary examination within 2 working days of the sale or transfer and SHALL insure puppies for a minimum of 4 weeks against illness, loss or sudden death)  (Breeders WILL breed with due attention to general health issues)
I think if we had a written complaint then it would be looked into very carefully.
We have a clause "Ensure that BMD puppies are only bred from KC, or other recognised KC. registered parents. As we had a spate of crossbreeds and this was brought up and the new clause added. It will be looked at if it happens again.
We are also very pro-active within the Breed council and have a very actice Health co-ordinator who does a huge amount with the BMD clubs around the world, attending health seminars and next year actually hosting it in conjuntion with our Two day Champ show.
I think we have a very strong code of ethics in our breed club

We have quite a lot of 'shoulds'.

> We had an SGM a couple of years ago as a member had bred from eye failure parents. That member is still there whereas some members actually left the club. In the end it is up to the members to expel someone they think has gone against the rules. Or not.

The Large Munsterlander Club only has 'guidelines' not actual rules.   There are other members of the club which have gone against the guidelines in regard to mating bitches before they were deemed 'mature' or more frequently than they should however they have never been taken to task.  You either haul everyone over the coals with regard to rules or 'guidelines' or do nothing at all, not be selective.

As with the Munsterlanders, the Curly code of ethics are purely guidelines. If the KC were to get their act together with regards the Accredited Breeders Scheme, they may well find that breed clubs would follow their lead. Make the scheme worth something and refuse to register litters outside certain health scheme results, give the breed clubs more power to exclude members for breeding from un-tested stock and from stock with poor test results.

The point I was trying to make is that it is up to the members to decide if there is a problem. We don't all agree with one anothers breeding practices, but who is to say who is right, and who is wrong? Attitudes change over the years and rules/guidelines that were made 20 - 30 years ago may not be politically correct, or relevant nowadays. It is up to the members of the clubs to decide whether changes should be made, and/or whether someone has gone against the ehtics of the club. A committee can only do so much.

I completely agree.  This old fashioned idea of mating bitches early should be dispensed with asap.   3 years old is more than an ample age to begin breeding from a Munster bitch and that way you have a general idea of any problems that may occur across a litter to gauge whether it is the right thing to do.

Our breed club has removed people for breaking the code of ethics. We would write to them for an explanation and if it wasn't satisfactory or they didn't respond we would write to them again and advise that their membership had been terminated.

Gabrielle x

Not in our breed, which I think is wrong

The thing about breeding, and registering the pups, is that you don't have to be a member of a breed club to do it. The KC will register anything on 4 legs, so long as the parents are registered with them. Yes, the breed clubs and their members should have a say, but the KC are the ones in the end that are allowing these breeders to get away with it, time after time..

Just putting a different spin on things but is there definitive proof in other countries where they only use from certain scoring dogs etc. that their health is improving?  How many other health problems are emerging which hadn't been seen before due to selective breeding etc?

When you have hip and elbow scores who is to say what is acceptbale and what is not? There are dogs being bred from all sorts of results because they feel their dog/bitch is very good in other areas. How do we know that high results are due to an early injury or husbandry reason? How do you explain great scores through a litter but one bad one? Parents are great but some of offsrping aren't.
What are breeders looking at, how can you decide what to use in breeding lines, what is acceptable?
Do we start putting in place nothing above certain scores should be bred from for whatever reason?
I also think that everything that is going to be used in breeding lines should go through a character assessment and pass it too.

I know of a breeder in my breed that states that if anyone wants endorsements lifted that they have to pass character assessment, complete at least bronze GC, have great health tests results and also the dog must meet the breed standard, which i think is a great :-D, even then there is no guarentee..

> complete at least bronze GC

I know most socially acceptable dogs can pass bronze, but not all owners are into formal training of their dogs, what has the level of training to do with it's fitness to be bred from?  Surely it is a measure of the owners training, not the dogs character.

> what has the level of training to do with it's fitness to be bred from?

I think its down to get the owners to take training the basics seriously and also to help with the socialisation of the puppies. Its not a bad thing and tbh i can only see this being a good thing for any dog and owner to go through, especially if they've not owned a dog before or just to revisit.
This is on her contract and while it'll prob never get into any code of ethics she is trying to get the owners of her puppies to be competant owners and trying to implement basic training techniques which are so invaluable in the future as they go through the unruley stage..

I have not been aware of anyone breaking the rules in this way so can't say but one person who was deemed to have acted in a devious way was expelled so I am confident they would

> Just putting a different spin on things but is there definitive proof in other countries where they only use from certain scoring dogs etc. that their health is improving?  How many other health problems are emerging which hadn't been seen before due to selective breeding etc?

I think the same could be said for here!   In my breed, when I first came into it all the dogs were tested for was hips & eyes.  You went for an eye test and  the thought never crossed your head that your LM would fail, no dog ever failed!  I have to admit having had Mia & Curtis done in the past few years I have worried as we have had a spate of eye test failures and something I wouldn't have worried about previously, I would now.

Also we have to elbow score and have this DNA test for HUU now, so are the LM's healthier now than in 1987 when I bought my first dog?

It's possible that the more you look for the more you find. Take hips, for example. HD has always existed in dogs - it exists in wolves, and in Man too. But before x-raying and scoring the only factor was whether or not the dog was actually lame - and we know that dogs can have high scores and yet move soundly. It's only since the advent of testing that we've learned that dogs can be affected and yet be asymptomatic. Likewise with eyes - when you start looking for problems you start to find them; they've always been there but have been unnoticed.

Quite, prcd_PRA in my breed is late onset.  Most pet owners would mayb not notice the start of sight deterioration, and when the dog was blind in old age, it would be put down to age.