Bear with me here, not something I am doing, or plan on doing, but just wondered from a topic on another forum, how unusual it is to buy in and pin your hopes on a stud dog, right from being a pup? 

I'll lay my beliefs right out there, nothing wrong with buying a pup as potential, but I wouldn't be pinning my hopes on that pup turning out to be exactly what I wanted (except on paper) for my bitch(es).  And I wouldn't have thought many experienced breeders mentoring someone would suggest this as a route??  So thought I'd pick said experienced brains ;)

Only if importing badly needed new blood, as it is very unlikely that you can buy an adult,a nd also integrate it into most homes easily if owning both sexes (hard enough with a 10 months old adolescent).

Otherwise I would, never see the point in buying in a male at all for use as a stud for you own bitches, as after he had sired a litter and produced what you wanted he would be of no further use to you (from the breading viewpoint), as for the price of a stud fee you can use the best available males, including ones abroad.

If you like owning males why not keep one of your own breeding from using the best available;e stud for your bitch/es.

Of course there may be the odd instance that unless you had the particular pup his bloodlines might otherwise be lost to the breed.

Sorry absolutley NO experience of this here, but in my breed, sometimes a dog is brought into a kennel for say a year, for that dog to be used on their bitches. The cases I've heard of recently have been dogs coming in from abroad. They are shown here also, thus helping them to gain another title, before going back "home" having sired hopefully some very nice litters. A great idea to help with gene diversity!

As for buying a dog puppy in with the intention of "using" him on your bitches... what would be the chances of that being successful? Probably 50/50 - can't really see the point unless he's going to be used extensively on outside bitches.

Personally, I won't be getting another boy until I have the facility to manage in-season bitches / entire dogs in a single household competently.

i did it with my imported boy. on paer he was ideal and he turned out so as well. He was chosen and imported purely for that reason. He has had one litter so far, which for my breeding plan is probably all he will need to sire, but you never know :)

That's the point though, imports are rather different, as that may be the only way to get the bloodlines we want/need, but buying a stud for your bitch is rather shortsighted, and unnecessary in the normal scheme of things.

Just to add, this is a first time breeder, it's not an uncommon breed, although not as common as some, but the advice apparently comes from someone with nearly 40 years experience in the breed.  And yet the pup had missed out on an eye examination (CEA) as the breeder just hadn't bothered. 

It all just seems very odd to me, and I'm sure a couple of people, may recognise who I'm talking about if they know the forum where I've read said confusing threads.  

As someone who hasn't yet bred any litters, I certainly wouldn't buy in my first ever stud dog as a puppy that hadn't had the necessary checks, although I know dna testing is an option now.  But out of principle, it sounds like the breeder of this boy cut more than a few corners.  And as a first time breeder, I'd want to use an experienced stud, not a maiden dog I owned with a maiden bitch.  Seems very odd you'd want to go this route, and it seems even more peculiar an experienced mentor would suggest it to you. 

Surely the only reason one would buy a puppy to be used at stud would be if you were starting up in puppy farming, means with luck you can use it at six months and start to save on the stud fees, I can see no other reason.

No ethical breeder would do this unless importing new blood, what would be the point as you would in all likelihood only use it once or twice and any pup you kept would be too closely related to be able to continue using him. You either have to buy in bitches to use your stud on or use outside studs there is no real reason for owning both the dam and sire unless you are starting up a production line.

I agree with the others.. even if you did have the perfect boy you can only use him once or twice, Id rather to put it mildy 'shop around' for a stud dog so that I would have many choices, as you all know stud fee's arnt cheep and you always want the best for your girl.

I would bring a male in only if there was  a good reason. ie bloodlines that may be lost as there weren't enough females in the litter, the male was only in this country for a short time, semen was used as the dog lives in another country, but I wouldn't necessarily bring it in for my own females. It would be to help out a friend and the bloodlines involved. Even then, there is no guarantee that he would be any good for future breeding. So no, I wouldn't buy a 'stud' dog as a puppy. There is no way that even the best of breeders can say what will happen in the early years.

The only male dog I've bought AS a stud dog is an import. I have a nice homebred dog I REALLY want to use (never kept him, he was returned to me) as I want to make use of several of his qualities that I find hard to find elsewhere, but with my bitches being too close to him, if all goes to plan I will not be able to use him for another 4 years at least! When he'll be 8.

Just wandered then at what stage would anyone consider a dog they owned to be a "stud dog"

In my breed, due to our small numbers, a lot of the dogs in the ring are never used, country wide we may only have 5 litters born in a year. My boy has sired one litter and I plan to use him myself next year but I would never consider him to be a stud. I know of one dog in a terrier breed that has covered 50 bitches so far. That's my example of a stud dog, but as a newbie to all this what do I know lol.

>I know of one dog in a terrier breed that has covered 50 bitches so far. That's my example of a stud dog, but as a newbie to all this what do I know lol.

Many people would reckon that siring a couple of dozen litters in a lifetime is plenty! Technically a 'stud dog' is one that's sired at least one litter and is available 'professionally'.

> terrier breed that has covered 50 bitches so far

Blimmin' Heck....In any breed, i'd of thought that would be way too many. One way to start really tying up the lines.
I think the owner of any 'stud dog' should be responsible for saying no he's sired too many or actually be very choosy as to where he goes..I think its a sad state of affairs when someone asks to use a dog and they just say yes without too much thought :-(

I know plenty of people who have males and females. The males being used on their females and also available to others. Again looking at it would all depend no how how many bitches and how many litters one has in a year!!
I don't think you can buy a puppy in that it will be used in breeding, no guarentees on any front..

This is what perplexes me, surely it is much more of a gamble to buy in a pup to bring up to use possibly once, with your bitch?  And much more expensive to boot, than paying for a top class proven stud dog of the right lines.  It seems very, very odd to me that someone new to a breed has been advised that this is the best route to go.  I don't think, from what they've posted, that they plan on showing their dogs in any way, so there will be no way of knowing that either dog or bitch are worth using, separately or together, unless someone with much more experience of the breed gives an honest critique and advice. 

Not something I'd normally recommend but I am thinking about it myself. With the import restrictions easing in 2012 I'm considering bringing over a male silken pup with lines to match my girl. If he turns out not suitable for her it's still fresh bloodlines in the country and I'm sure someone else will want to use him :-)

I can see the argument for importing a dog, either as a pup or older, but I don't think Wales counts, lol. 

I heard how many litters / puppies the Vizsla that won Crufts has sired.... it seemed very high and I am now wondering if that is the amount of puppies that have been produced. Either way taking into account the 'average' number of pups in a litter it is a lot. This can't be good for the breed in the future?

> This is what perplexes me, surely it is much more of a gamble to buy in a pup to bring up to use possibly once, with your bitch?  And much more expensive to boot, than paying for a top class proven stud dog of the right lines. 

It will of course pay if they simply intend to mate the same pair or the dog to all their bitches to churn out puppies, not ethical or responsible breading practise at all.

Repeat matings (I hold my hand up I did one once, but the first litter was only 4 pups, an the two litters came to 11 puppies) do not help a breeds gene pool at all, unless of course the first litter none were used for breeding but turned out so well the breeder wanted to repeat so they could use the line.

Also influence on the gene pool cannot easily be forseen based on number of litters or puppies any given dog has.

A dog could have one litter, and have a couple of successful offspring or grandchildren and end up being in too many pedigrees.  another dog may sire a lot of puppies but few if any are bred from.

Our own import sired 8 litters in this country (not a huge amount one would think) and one abroad, yet at the moment a high proportion of dogs in the ring and used for breeding/potential breeding stock have him as sire, or grandsire and even great grandsire, and there have been a few litters where he is in both parents pedigrees.

"Repeat matings (I hold my hand up I did one once, but the first litter was only 4 pups, an the two litters came to 11 puppies) do not help a breeds gene pool at all, unless of course the first litter none were used for breeding but turned out so well the breeder wanted to repeat so they could use the line."

I suppose that bit depends on the size of the gene pool as well, better to have two or three outstanding dogs/bitches producing that are full brothers/sisters, perhaps from two litters, than only one outstanding dog that everyone went to, at least, athough similar, there will be some genetic differences there.  So I can see the reason why people do choose a repeat mating as well; but in this instance, as you suggest, they're either gearing up to produce pups for nothing but the "experience" (how many times have I heard that excuse for cash), or they genuinely doesn't know how to go about breeding and are getting some rather duff advice. 

I know of a breeder who shows and uses her own dogs at stud as she does not "trust" other breeders ! Personally, I get the feeling this is just an excuse... it saves this person on stud fees and the hassles involved with inevitable travelling to a stud.
I would never keep my own stud dog, I would much rather keep my options open - there is a whole breed out there ! and I prefer to choose my stud dog for each individual bitch and mating, as oppose to just making use of the one I have available.  I also don't think I could handle an entire dog living alongside my girls, it would be way too stressful for me.

I have owned both dogs and bitches for 23 years and my boys have been used at stud (2 champions and a dual CC winner, all below average hip sccores and super temperaments :)) but I've only used my own dog on one of my bitches twice in all those years.

I don't understans all this 'we don't do that' business.

Why wouldn't people own their own stud dogs and yes plenty do without it being sinsiter, puppyfarm blah blah.  Where do you think the stud dogs come from, under a mulberry bush when needed. lol.

If your own dog proves a good match, i don't see the problem.  i do see that you can't judge as a pup, however, you would make sure that the said pup complimented your breeding and line, whyelse would you have it.  The way people are talking, we should drown the poor little blighters at birth for having a bit of tackle.

Do you think top kennels don't use their own stud dogs?

I think, Sunshine, the temptation can all too easily be that it's a good enough match rather than the best possible match when a person owns both dogs and bitches.

This thread was not about top kennels - it's about a novice buying in a puppy as a stud dog.

>Why wouldn't people own their own stud dogs

Lots of people own stud dogs, but not usually to use on their own bitch/es - after all, once a particular pair have had a litter it's very unusual to repeat the mating, unless the litter was of incredibly high quality. So if you want a second litter from the bitch, or a litter from her daughter, your own stud dog is ruled out so you use someone else's.

If you already have a bitch, the chances of a pup bought in specially as a match for her turning out to be the best possible mate when he's grown up are quite remote, and then the temptation would be to use him just because you've got him (so not stud fee to pay) rather than find a more suitable sire. The expense of raising a pup from 8 weeks to adulthood, then the costs of all the health tests to find out if he's suitable to use, and the showing expense to gethim evaluated ... if you've forked out all that you're likely to want to see some financial return on your outlay!