I've just sold , this afternoon ,  one of my dogs to a supposed pet home.
I've thought I had homevetted okay by getting pictures of the full house , and garden etc. I've spoken quite extensively to the man and felt like he had the perfect home. He told me he would have her neutered as she was going to be a pet. I drew up a contract for her stating that he had 14 days to return for a full refund. I sold her at a reduced price for this reason that she was going to be a pet and totally spoilt and be an only dog. However I have made a total mess as she didn't have endorsements on her pedigree.

Just an hour after her leaving , they live about 3 1/2 hours drive away , I got a phone call from his ex claiming he was a puppy farmer and regurlaly beat his dogs , and some had died with the cold conditions they were kept in last winter. She said he is a bad sort and burnt £23,000 worth of her property when they split and also beat her terribly. He didn't come across to me like this when I met him , he was quite charming and extremely well groomed. I googled his supposed puppy farm name and suprise surprise he has quite a number of breeding dogs and bitches.
My question is now that I've signed the forms will the KC let me put a restriction on if I get on the phone first thing in the morning and explain what has happened.

This has put a stop to me ever wanting to breed a litter again. I just don't think I can do it any longer. I am worried out of my mind , I've been in tears since . I called and said my son was very upset and could I come and fetch her and give him his money back , but he said he was driving and would call me back later.
What would you do?  I know most wouldn't of been this stupid , I feel like such a fool. I don't want my poor little dog to suffer.

:( Cani1 this is awful for you.  I hope he calls you and you can get your girl returned. 

Don't blame yourself.  You wanted what you thought was best for your dog.  Alot of folk have been taken in by people they thought were suitable dog owners.  I was too when I had my first litter 5 years ago.  Seemingly very nice family on the outside, until their 8 year old boy, without realising what he'd told us, that his dad smacked the dog with a belt.  She started doing damage in the house and they asked me to have her back so I did and she was rehomed to a friend.

Hopefully his conscience will prevail when he heard your son was upset.  Good luck.

I would personally go straight there tomorrow and offer to buy her back,for more than he paid if need be .Just get her out of there.

Have you thought it may be bitterness on the part of the ex,or did you find some dodgy info on him when you searched?

I'm really sorry. Unfortunately you cannot add any endorsements as they will only be valid if the new owner has signed something at time of sale to say they have understood what they mean. Lesson learned, endorse ALL pups, always, even ones you plan to keep. It doesn't help in the case of puppy farmers as they just mate anyway, but it will at least put some people off.

I don't really know what you could do to be honest but I can so well imagine your pain -I had something similar happen to me for my first litter, except in my case the dog was instantly sold on for a profit. I never found her again. You really have my sympathy -it's scary how well some people lie. :(

My heart goes out to you, this must be awfull. A very hard way to learn a lesson. Endorse ALL pups and insist on seeing the whole family I always do. Pictures mean nothing, they could be anyones home. The right people in the wrong house can make it work...the wrong ones no matter how lovely the house never will.
I think you may never be able to rectify this terrible mistake now. If it is a puppy farmer then no way will he let a small thing like upset family change his mind. You could try camping out on his doorstep untill he gets fed up and gives her back.
I hope you get a happy ending to this we have everything crossed for you.
Aileen

The man called and said he has now fallen out with his wife over this , and his daughter which he didn't say he had is upset. He said to give him the night to sleep on it , and explained that he wasn't a bad person and he understood I had feelings and that I didn't want my son upset. And he would see if we could come to some "ARRANGEMENT" tomorrow! I have to call him at 12 , if he hasn't called before.
I can't wait to get tomorrow here , although I am not building my hopes up. I know I won't get a wink of sleep tonight.

Don't think you can do an awful lot with the KC but are you sure the ex doesn't have an agenda of her own?

I would camp out but I'm 6 months pregnant , and this is getting too much for me.
I don't think I'll be able to have another litter , even though the ones I've had have always been for me to keep a pup or two to show.
If by any chance I did , I would definitely endorse every pup. Lesson learned big style!

Hi rocknrose
The ex may have an agenda but I'm inclined to believe what she has said as he has lied and when I found his puppy farm website it shows a lot of dogs, he lied and said he wanted her for a pet , and that he had no other dogs.

What a horrible situation for you.  Personally, i would expect to meet any new owners at least twice before making a decision if they can have a puppy, but sorry hindsight is not helpful for you now.  Is there anyway you can travel to his house now & wait to catch him 1st thing tomorrow a.m. ?  Thats the only thing i can suggest (i would def. be on my way now).  I really hope you can get your 'baby' safely back with you.

I've never let a pup go before without actually meeting the family in their own house , and having them visit a couple of times.

The dog I've rehomed is an older bitch that really was needing one to one attention , I was taken in by this man , and I can't believe it.  I have not bred from her as I didn't think she had the right temprement. I really thought she was going to a lovely home. If this lady hadn't called me I'd be oblivious thinking she was living a lovely life being spolit rotten. I am upset but I'd rather know and at least try to get her back.

Hopefully he will just want more money and give you her back. If you are going to rehome her I would have her spayed before you do then you can relax

> Hopefully he will just want more money and give you her back.

Maybe that's their scam.  Hope not.  Good luck getting the pup back.  Try not let him take you for a soft touch.

I've just got a response from the kc , who have said unfortunately there is nothing that they could do to help. But to contact my local trading standards office who may be able to help further. I am going to do this now.

The dog I've rehomed is an older bitch that really was needing one to one attention , I was taken in by this man , and I can't believe it.  I have not bred from her as I didn't think she had the right temprement.

Probably best in future to spay or neuter any adult bitch or dog that is to be rehomed and not bred from, BEFORE it goes, that way you're playing safe. (And that isn't meant as criticism to you, just a pointer to all of us.)

Not being funny here, but putting endorsements on the puppies registration would not STOP the puppy farmer from breeding from this pup as in general I'm sure most don't register liitters anyway. So don't feel about about no endorsements as this wouldn't stop this kind of person!

You are correct which is why a few of us have said it's best to neuter before pet homing - That WILL stop them

I understand , I'm in floods of tears now as I've just called him again and he said theres no way on earth he's giving her back. not even for more money.

sorry didn't read the whole post so didn't realise it was an older dog not a pup.. neutering would have made sense in that case yes.

Cani1 I am so sorry to hear that. I don't think there is anything you can do as he bought and paid for her with your consent.
I had hoped he may have been happy to give her back for a profit and buy another bitch elsewhere- I think that would have been your only leverage.

>But to contact my local trading standards office who may be able to help further. I am going to do this now.

On paper you have effectively changed your mind about a sale after accepting the money and giving a sales contract.   I cannot see that Trading standards will be able to help you - it's more likely that they may take the buyers side if you appear to be reneging on the deal.  Unless you are able to establish the buyer misrepresented himself and signed your contract under false pretences then this may be one situation where you have to accept the errors and live with it - as sad and as difficult as that might be (and you have my sympathy).

I do wonder about the ex wifes role in all this though.  You were happy that you'd done the right things to approve this man as the ideal buyer of your dog.  Am I right in thinking that you only got concerned after the telphone call?  How did she as the ex wife even know about it, or know who you were for that matter?  I'm not saying the woman is a liar (although she should be cautious about slander) but one has to wonder at her motivation  - I'm curious as to why she thought to ring you and cause trouble.

I hope you get a resolution one way or another xx

While I feel for you.. I am curious about a few things...

Why did you not go and check the home before homing, do you normally just hand over a dog?
usually when an older dog/bitch is placed in a pet home, no charge is made, but again, home checks are done as if we were homing and 8week old pup

and I am saying this because I have just done that.. Yesterday, I travelled a 10hour round trip (Scotland to Leicester) to home check where one of my dogs was going to.. I had spoken to them, but never met them, so I needed to meet them and see where they lived before even considering homing a dog to them

The other thing I am curios about.. you say he lives 3.5hours away, yet within an hour of him leaving, his EX phoned.. they must be on good terms if he is phoning her to let her know he has bought an adult bitch.. so for her to phone you will these allegations seem very strange!

nothing adds up here..

Your other post about going to see a puppy and finding he was a puppy farmer.. was this before or after you sold your girl..

I know I sound rather callous, honestly I don't mean to be, getting emotion over in writing is difficult.. but if putting this down can help others to no fall foul of people like this, then I hope you don't take it the wrong way...

I do hope that it is simply nastiness from his EX, and that your girl HAS gone to a decent home..

Don't fall out with this man.. keep in touch with him, at least then you will be able to get updates on your girl..

I don't know how the EX got my details she must of heard from friends I'm guessing.

Trading standards said I had no chance , but the RSPCA should help , my sister is on the phone to them now as I am too upset to speak.

Hi KAYC

I know how you are confused , so am I . The ex is not on good terms , he beat her up and burned £23,000 of her property. She has an injunction against him now. So I don't know how she knew to ring me .
I sold her at a reduced cost as I thought giving her away she could end up in the wrong hands ( that what my mentor told me years ago)
This man seemed to come along at the right time , and it is the only time I have not homevetted in person. He sent me pictures of all of his rooms , obviously clearing way any evidence of dogs!
He has given me an update today that she slept in their ensuite bathroom allnight in a wicker basket. I know he's lying as my girl would of chewed the whicker basket to shreds. She only ever settles down to sleep in her dog crate at night.

The other post was totally different , that was last Friday when I took my mother to view potential dam and sire of a breed she has wanted for years , it just turns out that they were selling from the back of a van. I am doing all I can to stop these people.

And then this goes and happens to me losing my dog to a puppy farmer! unbelievable!
I know she hasn't gone to a decent home , I will pm you his website details that I found , I hope I'm allowed to do this . 

You sold the pup cheaply,
you have seen his website,
and his ex has called within the hour.
This sure is a strange one.

Got your PM Cani1,
Another thing to consider is taking a trip down to visit him.. say you were in the area unexpectedly, and just came to see how she is settling in...

Keep in touch with him for now... keep friends close, enemies closer

She is an older dog
His ex called about an hour after he left my home. She told me the details of his website that I had no idea about.
It is upsettingly strange I am so upset I just cant get my head around it.

I agree with KayC, keep in touch with him.  However much you are upset just keep in contact so you can see how she is getting on.  I would also make it known in the nicest way that if he were ever unable to keep her then to let you know as you would take her back etc.

I have to say if it was me I would be camped outside the house to get the dog back but that could get you in alsorts of trouble.  I really do hope you get this girl back.

I assume you took an address for this man? if so have you google earthed it to see if it is a "Farm" type residence.  Also, have you tried explaining why you are now worried about his motives and what his "Ex" has told you. Maybe  you need to get the full picture on this.
Having just had to find a nice home for my Shabby at 16 months I must say I did a huge amount of homework on her new owners, went to see them got vet references and Rescue ref's as they had had a rescue same breed prior. We went to check out the garden security etc.. before parting with her, we took her to them and that was a 2 1/2 hour drive ..5 hour round trip. We also did it through rescue who have a cast iron contract, It meant "Handing" her into rescue (Not phisically) and gives a huge amount more security. We did not want money for her but the new owners expected and were happy  give a large donation to rescue. The agreement also  gave them 1 month to have her speyed (She was to close to a season to do before) and this has now been done. If you ever find yourself in this position again  make sure you have learnt from this awfull episode. I am sure you will never want it to happen again.
Aileen

If it were me, I would get intouch with the ex, perhaps she has a key? knows his movements.  Whether he is in or out I would snatch her back regadless of any back lash.  He is s a puppy farmer and should be treated as such.... he is in breech of the contract, he blatently lied to obtain your girl.... get her back... good luck.

Debsx

> I assume you took an address for this man? if so have you google earthed it to see if it is a "Farm" type residence. 

This can also be a huge problem.. some addresses, such as mine are so off the beaten track, that they dont come up on google.. BUT, if it did.. my home would be seen more akin to the opening credits to Cold Comfort Farm lol.. so much work needs done, but I spend too much time with the dogs.. the outbuildings are in complete delapidation and need bulldozed.. which is why you NEED to VISIT.. in exactly the same way a fanatical houseproud (but otherwise lovely) person could be the wrong type of owner for a puppy.. 

Face value should never be relied on..

I'm putting my reply at the bottom but it's not aimed at anyone in particular but rather several posters -a bit of catch all. :)

First off, personally I don't actually think home checks tells you all that much. Yes in this case there might have been the chance of seeing several other dogs, when there weren't meant to be any, but unless it was somebody with very large numbers and kennels they could temporarily be moved out of the way. Google streetview will tell a fair bit as well. But other than that, what will it tell you? That the house is clean or dirty? That the area is posh or poor? Really, does any of that make much difference? Surely what matters is how the dog will be cared for and treated, and an empty house cannot show that at all -only if it is a buyer that already has other dogs. Even then they can't tell you how they are treated, you can only see if they appear in good condition. And so many pet buyers won't have any other pets anyway. Oh and if I had home checked that buyer of mine that instantly sold the puppy on, the house couldn't have told me that either....

Secondly, I REALLY do understand the worry and the frustration, I really do, but speaking practically, I can understand why the KC, tradings standards and the RSPCA all will say there is nothing they can do. Because nothing has happened. There is no evidence of a badly treated dog for instance, you only have a buyer that lied. I don't think (but I would LOVE to be corrected here if I am wrong) there is anything in the law that says you have to tell the truth when buying something. In the eyes of the law a dog is just goods. If I went to a bookshop and picked up a Jackie Collins novel, told the cashier it was for my friend who reads that type of book, not for me myself who only ever read Jane Austen and Shakespeare, then went home and read the book and placed it alongside my collection of all other similar novels, then I'd have lied, but not done anything wrong in the eyes of the law. Unfortunately a book and a dog won't be treated any differently. :(

As for the ex, yes she could have had a reason to paint a bad picture of the buyer, but it seems you did find evidence of him not having told the truth anyway. How did the buyer get hold of you, could she not have gone down the same route? An advert, contact details left somewhere? Or if you're listed in the phonebook, if her ex mentioned a name, that would be all it took. So not necessarily all that strange I don't think.

All in all a very sad story but I really don't think much could have been done to prevent it from happening -if people decide to lie and are good at it, we can't do anything about it if we believe them. At home in Sweden , when I was a teenager, I used to have a friend who was a foster child. She lived in the same road. She loved dogs like I did. I noticed she lied every now and then but just learnt to live with it. A couple of years after I left Sweden to move to England, my friend was arrested and put in prison for fraud. She had managed to convince not one but several dog breeders to part with puppies, promising to pay them later, or to have them on breeding terms and give a puppy back, and then she sold them on. She also several times took money for dogs that didn't exist. She was let out of prison again but did the same thing again and again and I think was in prison again at least twice more. There was a LOT of publicity both in the dog press and in national papers and of course on the internet. Despite all of this, good breeders still fell for her stories because she was so good at lying. And again, had they done home checks, they wouldn't have found anything. The dogs were always very well cared for.

snatch her back regadless of any back lash

Seriously K9OURS - this is guy who has alledgedly beaten his ex and set fire to her property. I can't imagine how the op is feeling right now but taking the law into your own hands surely can't be recommended?
Presumably he collected the dog in question from the ops house and therefore could come back for any kind of unthinkable revenge....

> Unless you are able to establish the buyer misrepresented himself and signed your contract under false pretences

This may be one way to go. Did he sign a pet contract? If so maybe you could seek legal advice re him lying about his motives although he could just say the others are for breeding but this is his pet. It would be hard to prove. Short of going there with his money and the contract saying you are happy to collect her now with no further legal/RSPCA involvement and being clear that if this is not an option you will use the courts, local press, kennel club etc to prove he is a puppy farmer and fight to get her back that way. Maybe he will decide he doesn't need the hassle and give in.

Can you get pictures of any barns etc he keeps dogs in as evidence if needed?

Absolutely right kayc , I did google earth his address and it is in a nice street. What you said about being fanatically house proud and a lovely person is what this man is exactly. That's why I believed he didn't have another dog , the pictures of his house are absolutely immaculate.
I will keep in touch with him and get some pictures hopefully.

My sister has just finished speaking with the RSPCA , and he is known to them. She gave his name and the street name , and the lady needed no further details as he was already logged on their system. They have taken my dogs details and will contact my sister with the outcome and then myself. They said we have a case also because she was sold as a pet and she is going to be used as a puppy farm dog. They will go down the puppy farming route she said. I don't know what that will be , I just hope if they find her in there that they will get her out and check her micro chip. I might be clutching at straws but I'm hoping. The lady says it's down to the individual officer in charge what will happen once a dog is removed from a property.

Wow that was quick!!!!

They said we have a case also because she was sold as a pet and she is going to be used as a puppy farm dog. They will go down the puppy farming route she said. I don't know what that will be , I just hope if they find her in there that they will get her out and check her micro chip. I might be clutching at straws but I'm hoping. The lady says it's down to the individual officer in charge what will happen once a dog is removed from a property.

That's awful that he is known to the RSPCA: :( I honestly don't get this though. How could they remove a dog that of course will be in perfect condition, only just having arrived there, and what a buyer does with a dog when buying it is up to them -even if endorsed there is absolutely nothing in law to stop the buyer from breeding from the dog should they want to, they just can't register the pups.

Obtaining goods by deception?   Fraud?

As in, this puppy would NEVER have been sold to a puppy farmer unless he had misrepresented and decieved the owner?

If he is that well known to the RSPCA, he may already by the subject of a court order banning him from keeping and breeding dogs?  Surely this would give the RSPCA powers to seize?

Hope this has a happy ending for the bitch and her original owner.

Obtaining goods by deception?   Fraud?

As in, this puppy would NEVER have been sold to a puppy farmer unless he had misrepresented and decieved the owner?

If he is that well known to the RSPCA, he may already by the subject of a court order banning him from keeping and breeding dogs?  Surely this would give the RSPCA powers to seize?

I don't think it can be fraud -the dog was paid for after all. If the person was  banned, surely the RSPCA would have said so. But lets hope it's indeed the case.

Googling, there is no longer such a thing as obtaining goods by deception in the UK, apparently this act was replaced by the 2006 Fraud act. There might be something in that, not sure. The language is above my grasp of English. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/ukpga_20060035_en_1#pb1-l1g2

Reading as a lay person it would seem to be covered, but a legal person may have other interpretations ;)

RSPCA can't remove an animal if it has food, water and shelter.  That's it.  Let's hope the guy was banned and get it removed that way.

I had a couple come to me and fill me with the biggest load of tosh about their curcumstances/housing.  I turned up on their doorstep the following week to home-check(never told them I did that).  I started by asking her where her 6 foot fence was?  She didn't even have a small boundary fence!  I had a huge arguement with her and needless to say, she didn't get a pup from me.  She is still involved in the breed but I still feel she doesn't keep her dogs right so I'm glad I did that!

Hi  Cani1, is there any news about your girl yet?

Hi Jaycee
Sorry I haven't updated , we had a few days away at the caravan booked. During our time away the RSPCA contacted my sister to say that they have done two previous checks before , both due to his ex , they were spot checks , so he had no idea they were coming.
The officer said he had six dogs in February this year and were in purpose built kennels , all dogs were in good condition. There were no dogs in the garage , she found one dog in a crate , but she had puppies which had all been vet checked. So she had found no problems with his "set up". She also told my sister there is a long running fued between him and his ex , and she calls all the time , her calls are now logged as nuisance and are no longer taken seriously!
The officer said she will do another check and contact my sister with her findings . This has settled me a little knowing I'm going to get some feedback on my girl ( hopefully )
I have asked the new owner for photo's but he hasn't sent me any yet , I think he must think I am being a nuisance , I think I'll call him again next week.
Also she said they had never had any other complaints , but to call the local council as they must disclose any complaints made by neighbours etc. I'll  do this and update on my findings.

Pleased it seems ok but not above board as he described to you.  i don't see why he couldn't be honest and say he has other dogs and kennels.  Still suspect but at least stable conditions.  amybe have them go in a few months.  He could have cleaned up his act knowing there might be a visit after the ex's outburst.  Did they offer you any hope of getting your girl back.

Just bear in mind with council and neighbours that any complaints made by neighbours doesn't need to mean a thing. It could be complaints about barking, it could be neighbours that just doesn't like dogs and try to think of any excuse. I had to move house because our neighbours made repeated complaints against us (8 times). None of them were found to have any ground (the neighbours were actually lying) but of course they had to be logged.

I really feel for you Cani1, this man should not be allowed to get away with this, as he probably has done it before. I would keep pestering him has to how the dog is and how upset your whole family are. As previously said, keep your friends close and enemies even closer! I know you cant name and shame and I wish we could because it is the only way to warn others of of devious people like him who only wants to make money. You said he was 3 and half hours away from you, what area does he live? Maybe someone could go and see him who lives nearby and at least reassure you how the dog is.

Hi,  It is so easy to get  deceived.  How about letting it simmer down for a couple of weeks and then out of the blue dropping in for a visit, say nothing about the ex, or her phone call.  Personally wouldnt care if he was 3 1/2 hours drive away its worth it.  if you are concerned, you can then inform the local council authority, environmental health, as they deal with all breeding licences.  The RSPCA can only get involved if something has happened.  If he is a registered breeder the enviromental health will have him listed, they may have even been called to investigate him.  It is certainly worth a phone call to his council.  He may well be a breeder but he could be a genuinely good registered breeder, who actually looks after his dogs.  Dont despair, get on the phone, but to the right authorities.  I bought a puppy from a very good commercial breeder and she is fantastic, and was very well cared for.  But I had been told some really bad rumours about her, and too be honest because of this on my visit I asked all the right questions, got to visit the kennels, she did all the health tests, met her breeding stock, and got a really nice puppy out of it.  I never booked an appointment just arrived, then asked all I wanted to know. If there is something to hide you find out.  As I say phone his local council, they have more power than the RSPCA!