Please can anyone steer me in the right direction , I will be speaking with the accredited breeder scheme on Monday but what else shall I do about the following situation!

This afternoon we I went with my Mam to meet a breeder , who was recommended by the KC abs as they were in the North East ( Jarrow ) and we live in Northumberland. Now we didn't expect to see puppies yet as it is far too early ( I breed myself very occassionaly when I want a pup to show / but totally differnt breeds and I don't let anyone in my home until pups are over 4 weeks ) but we thought we'd see mum and dad.

My mam is wanting a smooth coat to show so was interested in seeing the sire and dam before deciding to look further afield at other breeders.
However when we got to the house it was empty , we looked through the windows and the floor was half dug up / nothing else inside at all. We went to get back in the car and a blue transit van pulled up , the woman got out and said they were having work done in the house so they had just drove up from their caravan in Wales where they'd been living. But don't worry we have the dogs and pups in the back of the van , she said we were lucky to catch them as they were just passing and were now on their way to Scotland , and if we wanted to reserve a pup we better hand over £200 now.
I was gobsmacked as was my mother , they opened the side door revealing the tiniest crates 1 with the dad , another with another bitch who hadn't long since had pups she still had milk , poor thing didn't even have a blanket in her tiny crate.

The man then leant over the back and grabbed the mother out by the scruff of her neck ( poor little girl ) and took her away. The lady grabbed the pups ( 8 days old ) and was going to pass them outside to us in the very high winds and drizzling rain! I immediately said no they need to be kept warm can you please put them back. She was trying to sell during this time and I was saying we were only wanting to see what the lines were like as my mam isn't in any hurry as she wants a good dog for showing ! She then said " well these pups will show , even though they don't have papers !" I said " They must have papers , you are a kc accredited breeder !" she said " you don't need to register a litter to be an accredited breeder , and you CAN show dogs without papers !"  I said look " I know what I'm talking about , I am a breeder myself , and there are rules you must follow! come on Mam no way are you having anything to do with these !"

We got back in the car and left very quickly , my Mam feeling really sick and myself feeling really angry! We have talked all night about it , and they seem to be living and selling puppies from the back of a van .I am going to speak with the abs people on Monday , I have scoured the internet for information on these people and found they are members here on champdogs ( HOW DO I GO ABOUT REPORTING THEM TO CHAMPDOGS? )
I have also found adverts on a few dodgy puppy advertising sites with 3 different address' for them , one in Wales , one in Manchester and the one in Jarrow where they are registered with the abs scheme. I have reported the adverts to all of the sites.
I then rang the breed club and spoke to a lovely lady who confirmed they were accredited breeders , and said to ring the kc and rspca.
Do you think the rspca can do anything ? They have never been interested in anything I've reported in the past !

Any advice on what I should do , to try and stop these vile excuses for human beings will be appreciated.
Sorry the post is soo long , I could go on even more .

That's awful. :( I honestly don't think there is an awful lot more you can do. Definitely speak to the ABS, they do shout about having removed breeders after people have reported them. Either they haven't been inspected or they have used one of the addresses they have and made sure everything was perfect even if they didn't actually live there. :( I don't think the RSPCA would do much but at least it can't hurt to try. Trading standards is a thought as to what was said about showing without papers -but then I guess they could just say you can go to companion shows. Good on you for trying to do something at least!!!

Unfortunately the ABS is seriously flawed. What is the point of insisting that AB must do the relevant health tests for their breed (ie hips, elbows, eyes, etc) and yet not insisting that the results are taken into account? ABs can hip score their bitch, discover that she has a score of 100 (for eg) and still breed from her because they have scored her. A totally ignorant pet owner of a labrador near me bred a litter because they are "hard to come by" and they had to "drive for 2 hours" to buy their pet puppy! Two years later they bred from her, had a large litter at about £500 each and she told me the puppies were "top quality" because she was an A B. Why are the K. C. so "head in the sand" over this scheme? It could be so worthwhile if the accreditation was earned, not bought, and was hard to come by. When they make consideration of health scoring RESULTS compulsory and A.Bs are not allowed to breed if scores are too high or eye tests fail, then I would like to join.
Meanwhile, you will continue to get people such as Cani1 reported. PLEASE do your best to follow this through with the K.C. and the person's local council. May as well slit your wrists as try to get help from The RSPCA I'm afraid.

> I then rang the breed club and spoke to a lovely lady who confirmed they were accredited breeders

Are they registered with the breed club, is that part of being an AB? If so what are they going to do about it? Are they going to follow this up also?

Push this forward Cani1 anyway you can, unbelievable, really is and soo very sad for all dogs and pups concerned :-(

email admin with your findings and I'm sure they will help you

How upsetting.

I feel so sorry for the dogs with such animals looking after them.  i would maybe try the Rspca, explain how you met the pups and maybe they can go out undercover in the same way.  Did you get the van reg maybe you could report them to the police.  i would also pop a note into the house they were using and tip off the owner how their address is being used.

Hope you get some answers. 

Just re-read your post - if you get nowhere with the KC how about trying the Dog Press or even 'The Sun' - not a fan of the paper but they may take on the story and make people more aware of what is actually going on.

Please keep us posted as to how you get on

What about speaking to the tax man and the council re breeding licence ?

Don't get your post, you say that you were going to meet them, but then say that the house was empty and they turned up in a van and said you were lucky that they were there.  Had you arranged the visit?

Sadly doubt the RSPCA will do anything.  Would definitely get in touch with the taxman though!

Would complain to the breed club in writing if they are a member as it sounds like they should be doing something.

The ABS is totally within the jurisdiction of the Kennel Club. Breed clubs have absolutely no control over this and even if they report concerns to the K.C. nothing is done to remove unsuitable people. The hands of committees of breed clubs are often frustratingly tied. Apart from refusing membership, which does not hurt this type of people as they continue their unscrupulous dealings whether members or not, breed clubs can do nothing.

To perrodeagua :
Yes we had arranged to go to their house , we thought they lived there. We were about twenty minutes early , but we could see the house was completely empty , we looked through the windows ( just to be nosey really ) When we had just sat back in the car to leave they pulled up in the transit van.

They aren't members of the breed club , but the lady doubled checked for me that they were accredited breeders. She did say the kennel club would listen to me more than her as I was the one who had experienced this.
I will be contacting the tax man definitely , it can't do any harm to , these people deserve all they get , and I owe it to these poor little dogs not to let it go.
I'll update on Monday what I have managed to get sorted .

Good luck, just do all you can.

You say they are members on this forum , do they advertise pups on here ?? as I thought there were certain rules to be adhered to if you wanted to sell pups through CD . For one they need to be registered or am I wrong ?

Name and shame them !!!!

> Name and shame them !!!!

Can't be done unfortunately as that would open up CD to all kinds of legal hassle, perhaps leading to loss of the entire site.

WHAT ISA THE POINT OF US DECENT ACB JOINING THIS ? i thought the whole idea was to be passed as caring breeders etc then you get people like these who just flant all the rules and if the k/c cant do nothig what is the point of us being acb

Think it is nonsense you do not even have to be a breeder to be Accredited and I have been told of people who do not even own a dog being accepted, may be untrue I just believed it as I know that non-breeders are accepted so it seems more than likely.

To set up a half baked scheme such as this would seem to bring as much discredit onto the pedigree dog world as do disreputable Puppy Farmers, who no doubt (judging by this) can register as well.

> Think it is nonsense you do not even have to be a breeder to be Accredited and I have been told of people who do not even own a dog being accepted, may be untrue I just believed it as I know that non-breeders are accepted so it seems more than likely.

This is no longer the case, you have to have bred at least one litter.

This is from the KC website: "Many Accredited Breeders have a wealth of experience and will have bred for many years, and we do require breeders to have bred at least one litter prior to acceptance."

Further info can be found here: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/420

> This is no longer the case, you have to have bred at least one litter

But have they removed those that were already members, this is only third party but I believe there are still persons registered who do not and have not bred.

I think people are missing the point of the topic.

The scumbag puppyfarmers/scammers are selling puppies out of a van.  how many times have we heard stories where they are told to meet someone at a shop blah blah, they don't exist from that address.  We need to think about those poor babies that the op saw and not a scheme that can obviosly be abused.  maybe anyone accreditted shoud be vetted.

The way the dogs were treated beggers belief.  I wonder if the police would be involved if you asked them as I'm sure you need a licence to sell out of the back of a van and welfare issues.

i would try the RSPCA, tell them how you encountered them and ask them to interviene for the dogs welfare.  if they don't, I would go to the papers and say how they refused to help animals in distress.

Its about time the relivant idiots started tracking and sutting down these scumbags.

UNFORTUNATLY, i have seen the same thing i have reported it to rspca and kennel club but nothing was done, my breed dnt think rspca like anyway so dnt give a dame all they want is money, and kennel club well they are a joke they just also want ur money sorry my reply is harsh about rspca and kennel club but i just dnt see that either care cause when u report anything nothing is EVER DONE, they are ment to be there to protect animals well far as im conceredd thats a joke they just do nufink...............

I totally agree with you on that one.  Unbiased about kc at the mo, never had an issue but if they don't do anything then it needs to be bought the everyone's attention.

I don't understand the RSPCA not helping animals, what the hell do they want money for.  They need to be protecting such like animals, it would be very easy to trap these scoundrals, just call for a puppy preview, in an ideal world the RSPCA would be there to seize the poor babes.

I think unless people start making a fuss we will always see it or hear about it.  it takes people like the op to care enough.

A dog dealer not far from where I live advertises that he is an Accredited Breeder, when I discovered this myself and a reporter from a local newspaper investigated. It turned out that he was using the KC logo for the ABS with out their knowledge. Their legal department were able to stop him using the logo but could not stop him using the words Accredited Breeder in his title or advertisements as he had been inspected by the RSPCA and they thought his dog dealership was ok as all the dogs had water. He still advertises he is an accredited breeder and when asked he tells everyone that he is accredited by the RSPCA and since autumn of 2008 will tell folk that the RSPCA accreditation is better than that of KC ABS members.

If these people really are Accredited Breeders with the KC then you must act to get them kicked out of the scheme or it will never improve. At a time when the KC knows that DeFRA is watching our every move it is ever more important we weed out these bad breeders and support the scheme ourselves. The independant Dog Advisory Council being set up by DeFRA will have among others the RSPCA as members of the board and you can bet they will watching dog breeders and especially those involved in shows very closely! All ready there is an early day motion going through that is calling for compulsory micro-chipping of all dogs, from there we are barely half a step away from the RSPCA calling for a compulsory annual dog licence which (I am sure they will deny right now) they will want to run to control all canine activities as well as who can or cannot own a dog!

> if they don't do anything then it needs to be bought the everyone's attention.
>

the only thing they can do is follow up and suspend the breeder, they cannot do anything about the way they are breeding etc. 

Same with breed clubs the worst they can do is stop their membership, which these don't appear to have.

The only way any of the above can happen is with evidence.

There was recently a thread that showed once visited that the Kennel Club advisers were not passing breeders for silly things.

Perhaps as they cannot possibly visit every applicant quickly applicants initially should provide veterinary and breed club references to back their membership of the Accredited Breeder scheme.  Also references from previous puppy owners.  After all they are relying on feedback from puppy buyers to monitor breeders.

Just because we don't know they are doing something doesn't mean they are not.

That comes down to laws that the authorities (Police and Local Authorities) are very loathe to enforce.

there sadly is a puppy farmer near here to that advertises as an Accredited Breeder, i did phone the KC and they were aware off him, but as the 'other registration club' had started their own scheme which is seems anyone could join there is nothing the KC could do.

This is what the Kennel Club are up against with the ABS,

Theses puppy farmers selling from a van Told someone they are Accredited KC breeders...they also Told the prospective buyers that the puppy was a show prospect.

Why would you believe them?

We as breeders and dog lovers should gang up on theses types and get them banged to rights.

The Kennel Club now have on their website a page where there is a list of  Accredited Breeders in  each breed. This may help to find out if they were really Accredited Breeders. Though not all Accredited breeders are listed as some may not wish to have their details published. The link is http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/acbr/Default.aspx

Well there's definitely two, if not three in my breed that have never bred a litter.

But have they bred a litter of another breed?

Cani1 did you get hold of the KC yesterday and if so what did they say?

Hi MarianneB yes I did , I spoke to a lady called Angela from the ABS team. She was really lovely and said that she was pleased I'd brought it to their attention . They will act as soon as they receive my concerns in writing and on this occassion to speed things up she would accept an email. She advised before I do this as not to waste anymore time that I contact the RSPCA first , which I did immediately. They were also very helpful and concerned for the dogs welfare. I gave all of the details I had and the case is being passed to the regional centre where I was assured they would be going and checking the house. I said they would find the house empty , but the lady assured me that there were other avenues they could follow to track down these people.
I have just sent my email to Angela at the KC this morning as my email kept locking up yesterday. I will update the thread as soon as I hear anything more.
I also sent an email to champdogs explaining the situation briefly , and hopefully they will have their details removed from this site too.

Good work Cani1! Really good to hear all of this, fingers crossed now.

Just to update that admin have been great , they have removed their details from the database.
At least it's a start.

Just want to concur with that, Admin were great when I had a reason to complain.
Just hope you get somewhere with the KC, they didn't want to know about my complaint.

Hopefully they will , I won't just let it drop , they'll be sick of me by the time I'm finished complaining!

I had the local RSPCA officer on the phone yesterday , she did a spot check on the house , and said there was definitely no one living there , she looked through the windows and it was completely empty. She searched the local area for a blue transit but couldn't find it.
She has taken the telephone numbers I have and says she'll catch them out another way , and that she isn't letting this case drop!
I was so pleased with her comments , I never really had a lot of faith in the RSPCA , but they are definitely winning me round. I think they are doing a great job at the minute.

My god, someone in the RSPCA that care's about animal welfare.  About time.  hope all ends well.