no i did not say the papers were no true what. we will have to disagree on this

Have to agree with you on this one Dizzy. I know of someone that bought an unregistered CKCS and now it has grown up it is obviously not pure bred and looks more like a CockerX. She has a pedigree for it, but it is only as true as the person that wrote it! To my mind the fact that any dog is regiestered with the KC means you can check it's parentage.
Having said that I have heard of a breeder that put a stud dog down as the sire, but used another one.....so again I guess it relies on honesty!
I think I've just shot down my own arguement:D

I see I have opened a cans of worms...I will keep things to myself in future..but thanks for all your replies good or bad.

lynsey, i am glad you have put your foot in it, at least now i am not on my own lol.

There are too many people on here that change there mind, which is very annoying, one day they say something and the next they change it. It was i that got shot on the idle chat, but i can take it, kc or not does not make a difference unless you want to show, and im sorry if that gets peoples back up but it is true.
Debbie

Ok thats it *stands up and applauds* (it was best I could think of :D:D:D) I couldn't agree more, :) :D I would have spoken up for you if I had known :D when was you errm 'shot down'? and what breed do you breed? out of interest?

Lynsey

I breed rottys I have 2 cleo and bud, bud is 12stone and cleo 11 stone, they are both fantastic dogs i have 2 kids and the dogs love them, they also go to school with me every day and meet all the other kids, they also go to work with me to meet the old folk, this way they get used to as much people as poss. We have 4 rottys on the street and they all get along great.

I got shot down as i am breeding non kc dogs, so what, do they want all non kc dogs to be destroyed.

I still see buds mum and dad and the sis and brothers and they still get along great.

cleos pups have all gone to good homes, and i have turned alot of people down as at the end of the day they are my babies and they are not breed to be put on a chain.

I am geting used to be shouted at on this board, at least now i am not on my own lol

I haven't shouted at you Debbie :-)
But I would like to hear answers to my queries above.

I know you never shouted at me leigh, I am gratefull to the person that put the lock on my post.

lololol nope at least your not alone :D

<<<< I got shot down as i am breeding non kc dogs, so what, do they want all non kc dogs to be destroyed.>>>>

Hi Debbie,

No, not destroyed - neutered :) but that only goes for breeds that are recognised by the KC. They have worked hard for that recognition and it can easily be wasted by non registered dogs being bred. Just my humble opinion.
Dot

I am sorry dot but to me that would be a waste, having all non kc dogs neutered,

I think this is something that could be argued round and round and the point you start with could end elsewhere as Graceb just found out.
It is easy to say I believe such a thing and when asked why be able to give reasons which can then be shot down by different points, but you still hold the belief.

This isn't making much sense. As long as the good of the breed is at heart that is the main thing. Health tests, temperament etc are what matters. Perhaps it would help if KC registration meant more than that a fee had been paid. In other countries various criteria have to be met before a dog can be bred from and while I feel that is a bit Draconian I can't help wondering if that may avoid some of the situations being discussed. Please don't shoot me down in flames as I'm only wondering out loud
Anne

as I am the writer I thought I would reply.. :D the implications as I see them are NIL Pets dog, loving home, no breeding from said pup planned (I am getting her spayed) ..what else can I say..I have already said that I have looked into what her mum and dad are like..and the rest I feel is up to me and our family :D.

If I (as the writer :D) am prepared to offer a puppy with (in my opinion) good parents, a loving home to be company for another Yorkie of mine , who I might add has an excellent pedigree and IS KC Reg (although what use I have had for them I will never know, she was also spayed young) what is the exact problem?

I do appreciate your cooments..but sometimes I do feel that puppys are being rejected because they dont have KC reg..I am not a person that I feel this applies to, and a pet dog not used to show or breed is rarely going to have a need to whip out her KC reg and say "hey I am a bone fide Yorkie look look" :D
but she might just as easily have the skills and looks to be a beautiful loving sister to my older yorkie.

Hi Lynsey,
Good thread. It's interesting to see something from all angles :)
I think in your situation, ie. knowing parents, previous pups from same mating, not planning on breeding etc. then I'd feel the same as you that KC reg is unimportant - in this case

I think someone earlier hit the nail on the head. It comes down to trust. I also think instinct has to do with it too. You're lucky in that you know the background etc. but I think Dizzy's right too. If someone has to purely go on trust and instinct to buy a pup then at least KC reg should give more assurances. It doesn't always work out like that because you can still get unscrupulous people falsifying documents just so they can KC reg pups.

IMHO people should only buy a pup once they know enough about potential breeders/pups to satisfy themselves that everything is above board. It's people who rush out and buy without thinking/research that run the risk of 1.Encouraging puppy farmers. 2. Buying an inferior pup.
Personally, if I was buying a pup and didn't have contacts within the breed, I would go to dog shows so I could see the breeders and their dogs in action. I'd speak to as many people as possible, approach breeders, question as much as possible and eventually make up my mind that way. It's just my humble opinion and I'm amazed at how sensible I sound :D but I do think a lot comes down to people's own instinct/judgement/trust.

Enjoy your pup when you get her :)
Dot

Thanks dot,
We will certainly worship the ground her four little feet walk on :D .

As for the thread, yep I guess I did hit a rather interesting subject...not bad for a newbie :D :D :D

My only one problem when I spoke to many breeders that breed for showing, was that they docked the tails (am not saying all do just the ones I spoke to) and knowing 100% that was not right for us we couldn't use those breeders however nice they were etc :) I did speak to The lady in charge of Yorkie Rescue and took all her advice on board even though she did not agree with me over the tail docking we agreed to disagree on it I did contact many people prior to making my 'selection' and personally I feel the breeder I did choose is lovely and very very caring.

Lynsey

Hi all,

My opinion is that whist we are seeing 2 views hear they should be consolidated.

My opinion although will sound strong is what you should want in a puppy is

Good health, temprement, pedigree, to the standards and it should be KC reg also. Not one without the other.

I think we should never go down the lines of saying well it is healthy and good temprement as it should be that without any question anyway, it should not come as a bonus nor should the KC registration come as a bonus.

Are you pay a KC price for the puppy? Probably like so may do.

It is not for me to tell anyone what to buy but I do believe in saying that people should not sacrifice one thing for another IE A good temprement for the KC registration .A puppy should have both and if it doesn't then I would suggest not buying. Hard yes but how do "WE" in the UK stop the over breeding and x breeding lies.

Yes I know KC is no guarentee but it's all we have and it helps a little. The KC is not only for showing purpose , there are codes of ethics behind them, there is some support if you wish it. Whilst the pedigree is not 100% guarenteed it is closer to any guarenteee you are going to get.

Again in my opinion and not directed at anyone at all if people buy puppies who are not KC reg and pay reasonable sums then they can be viewed as incouraging not so 100% genuine breeding.

I am not saying this is the case but it is worth looking at from all angles.

Why should anyone sacrifice one thing for another. The wholw purpose of breeding is to better the breed.

BFN

Pam
Double PS this is not directed at anyone just my views

wow this thread has been busy today :D

Looking at my post I made early this morning I feel I should have perhaps elaborated a little more.

My feeling was that Lynsey was going to have this pup anyway, KC registered or not. My post about temperment and health was really talking about THIS case and not all breeding in general although reading it now I can see it doesn't really read as I would have liked. I would (and do) advise anyone who asked me directly to look for a KC registered litter as this should MINIMISE the risks for all the reasons stated in the various posts in this thread.

Pam made a post somewhere about temperament and health checks should not be extra to being a good example of the breed but I have unfortunately seen cases where one has been sacrificed for the other in both directions. That should NOT happen but it does sometimes :(

I've replied here to Dot's post as she has put into words my feelings much better than I ever could ;)

Sara

yup seems like when I pick a thread I REALLY know how to pick it :D

and there again she might not!!! she could be related to any breed of dog!! without kc papers youre buying little more than a mongrel-hope it works out for you, and rather you than me-i preferr to know EVERYONE in my dogs pedigree, ALL the health issues available, i also have a very healthy respect for honest breeders, therefore if i ever owned a dog that for whatever reason SHOULDNT be bred, -i certainly wouldnt, its not snobbery, its common sense, -also ETHICS play a big part in it,

Hi everyone,

Have been following this topic with interest and just wanted to add my opinion.
I think that you have to consider WHY the alternative registration clubs were set up in the first place, and as far as I'm concerned, the DLRC was set up when the KC brought in the new rule about registering litters. The Dog Lovers Registration Club is owned by the same person that owns Dogs 4 Us (correct me if I'm wrong :)) and I have heard that its purpose was to provide puppy buyers with pedigree certificates because these breeders registering with the DLRC (who sold puppies to Dogs 4 Us, I dont mean everyone who uses this club) were no longer permitted to register with the KC.

Just my humble opinion of course, I'd be interested to know what everyone else thinks about this?!

HI Bramble,

I would guess that the DLRC could not , did not or even wanted to follow the ethics of the Kennel club and it's reputable members.

Buying and selling a few week old puppies, no guarentees, none socialised puppies.

Beyond me.

Pam

am having trouble posting mesages and replies but I will continue as I have just written out a long reply and it wouldn't post...will try again later

Pamela what do you mean by no guarentees, none socialised puppies? and why is it beyond you?

Hi Debbie,

I was refering to Brambles post re <<<<The Dog Lovers Registration Club is owned by the same person that owns Dogs 4 Us (correct me if I'm wrong ) and I have heard that its purpose was to provide puppy buyers with pedigree certificates because these breeders registering with the DLRC >>>>> Sorry Bramble.

This is what is beyond me. I am afraid. These people are buying puppies from breeders at only a few weeks old and selling them on, keeping them in cages and kennels until they are sold. They are not socialised, loved nor can they be guaranteed for health nor good authentic pedigrees.

I honeslty cannot see how anyone cannot see that these systems are set up to abuse puppies and new owners.

I am not saying Debbie that you are like that but all I am asking is that you at least think about what we are saying for the benefit of your breed. I am have no statistical evidence but I do believe that puppies bred outwith KC procedures own fate can be less optimistic, I know you will argue this but a puppy that is not KC reg is less desirable than one that is and I do believea non KC reg dog at 6 months is very hard to sell or home.

I am also not saying all KC reg puppies or KC reg puppies are bred 100% above board but with the use of boards such as champs, research, and people trying to get the word out and also all good owners and breeders working towards the same thing it can make a difference.

BFN

Pam

Pamela, cleo stays indoors with her pups until they are 4 to 5 week old or if its cold they will stay indoors until they go to there new homes, they live in a very warm house (too warm for us humans), and are well looked after and played with all day by us and the kids, befor the pups go to there new homes I do a house check first, if they are not right for my pups then the pups do not go to them, We had one pup called Lani, she was going 11hrs away from where i live, but i still did a house check to make sure everything was ok.

I have sent alot of people away, if they dont seem right to me then they wont be right for my dogs.

As for the DLRC i dont know why i wasted my time on it.

Bramble im sorry but i dont know, i registered with them because i knew no better, i have not breed befor i got cleo and bud, so it was all new to me.

I do have there pedigree papers, and i did get in touch with some of the owners on them to do some checking.

which kennels did you contact debbie, -as id be very suprised a registered affix holder in any breed accepting that its ok to breed from unregistered dogs,
i know afair few rottie breeders of old and would be very suprised if their veiws had changed
and for the original poster, would you like to say who the judge of yorkies is that doesnt think the kc papers matter at all,??? im sure shed have the courage of her convictions :rolleyes:

now did I say she said they didn't matter at all?? I said they didn't matter if you was only wishing to ahve a pet dog, and not show, and as she has no part in this argument I am not posting her name on ehre, you ahve no need for it unless you are calling me a liar and wish to challenge her?! :D

i find it unbelievable that if someone is able to judge a breed! [providing were not talking exemtion etc] therefore know kc rules-ethics etc. that they would hold such little regard for those veiws as to make them seem a nonsense even if were talking pet puppy!!! also i think you said she did rescue, certainly makes for a suprising comment

Kept out of it so far but I can feel another locked thread comming on............

By the way I have a non KC dog and as soon as I found out I could not show him etc etc I had him neuterd straight away. It is not down to snobbery as some think, but why breed from a dog that you can not back track its back ground. It is alright saying that the dog you have has a good temp but how you ever going to find out what the generation before and the generation before was like in health, temp etc etc......unless of course you dont care :rolleyes:

DOGS--YOUVE GOT IT IN ONE ;)

As Kenneth Williams once said, Dizzy:- Infamy! Infamy! Everyone's got it in fer me! :P

:D :D :D :D :D :D

It was the kennel club that i contacted and they went through the ped papers for me, and the names on them were true kc names with the right owners. Yes i do have a mate that breeds kc dogs and her advice is good at this moment in time she has 3 rotty bitches and will breed from them all in the future. KC/ or not/ Kc for showing, non kc for pets, people need pets so there will be people that breed non kc dogs. all my dogs are well looked after and after this litter there will be no more for at least 18 months plus

you said youd been in touch with the owners of dogs in her pedigree and they where all healthy!!! the kc couldnt tell you that,-all you have is a pedigree, -i could sell you a dog tommorow and give you a full rottie pedigree for it!!!!

I said i had been in touch with kc because i wanted to check on cleos back ground kc never told me if they were healthy or not like you say how do they know.
You trust people, in cleo and buds papers they have show dogs in them, I am unsure why the kc was not followed on, i do know of a well known rotty breeder that tells people to kc one litter and not kc the next. so you tell me if you have people like this as well known and respected breeders, then why should i not breed cleo and bud as non kc

Wow what a responce
I have had dogs all my life but I am not as experienced as a lot of people on this message board. I only have my humble opinion (for what its worth), each to their own I say!!! Marley the bernese who is 14 weeks old is kc registered and I decided that was best for me.:) I wanted assurance that his background was the best that I could get!! I once owned a non kc registered belgian shepherd dog, who at 6 months old bit my year old son on the face. I know that you can never completely guarantee the temperment of any dog but I thought that knowing Marley's complete background it would help. My other dog Oliver is a crossbreed and I met both his parents. He is not kc registered and I have been very lucky with him:D Both dogs are pets and very loved. I am sure your baby will be as much loved:D

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