As I am new here I do apologise if this subject has been widely discussed before, but I just wanted, well was interested in finding out peoples views on 'pet' dogs being KC reg or not, I understood that unless you wanted to show the dog the KC reg was immaterial, (was told this by very experianced Yorkie owner)...now I would like to know if you feel the same or not...if the dog still has a full pdigree for instance but mother and father were both pet dogs an not KC reg it would be impossible to register any pups they had, (how ever lovely they might be)...am I right?

Hi Lynsey,
As far as I know (the rules may have changed) if one or other parent is not KC registered, then the puppies can't be registered either. However, that does not mean that they are not purebred "whatevers" and as long as you only want them as a companion dog, and don't want to show them, they will be fine.

HOWEVER, having said that, if the parents aren't registered, (and ideally shown and placed in Champ Shows) you have no way of knowing how close to the breed standard they are, and so you could be "sold a pup" as the saying goes.

CAVEAT EMPTOR.

Thanks for your reply JeanGenie

so for instance I have reseved a puppy..little girl yorkie and her mum and dad are not registed with KC but have champions in their pedigrees. I only wish her to be a pet dog and companion and I do not wish to show, I also wished for an undocked dog and she has her tail thankfully. The puppies cannot therefore be registered because mum and dad were not registered (and as I understand it some breeders for what ever reason choose not to register some litters.) I was told by very experianced Yorkie lady that it is immaterial and irrelevnt if the puppy is KC reg, it is still a pedigree and the KC reg is only relevant when showing dogs.

Now I am in way over my head here because I do not know whether this is true or not..so am open to peoples comments

Hi Lynsey

The most important thing I think you need to consider is the parents temperaments and have they had any health checks that are relevent to the breed.
KC registration is not vital unless you want to show BUT in my opinion the 2 things listed above are :)

To be a pedigree dog it does not have to be KC registered.

Sara :)

A pedigree is only a list of anything's (person or dogs) parentage. Whether or not they were of the same breed is irrelevant (unless they are KC registered). All it is, is a list of individuals, nothing more, nothing less. It is no guarantee that they were good examples of their breed, just that they were known (even if they were Mrs Jones' tyke from down the road).

I think the 'good examples of the breed part only aplies to showing' (in my opinion), as I am not a good example of my breed but I wouldn't have wanted to have been rejected for it :) :D ..I think as long as the mum and dad are nice dogs and of nice character thats fine for me, they are both full Yorkies, lovely looking lil things and my other yorkie is full pedigree, excellent I might add :) and she has KC reg but I have never had any need for them at all.

But doesn't being a 'good example' also apply to temperament? And surely that's an even more important part of being a pet dog that a show dog? It's a bit early in the morning, and I'm not sure I'm making sense.....

yes but I meant the mother have father have excellent temprements :) even though they are not KC reg

thanks for your reply saraW since leavin home oh errrm 10years ago...I have only ever bought one dog my beloved Yorkie, an now getting another puppy so I am trying to find out as much info as I can.. :)

Lynsey

this thread is amazing---its now ok to breed from non kc registered dogs, yet on idle chat someone whod just done that was shot down for it!
youve no proof whatsoever that the dogs are pedigrees, -they could be anything, you pay for what you get,

dizzy it was I that got shot down for breeding non kc dogs, i wish people would make up thee minds, Debbie

Being registered does not give any indication of being close to the breed standard. You can have un-registered dogs being good examples of the breed and registered dogs being awful examples. What registration does do is allow you to show at KC shows, identify your dogs ancestry and register any progeny you may have - providing there is no restriction and that's about it.

Having said that - if I was buying a uppy - I would only ever go for a registered dog from a reputable breeder as that shows that bitch has been "used2 for want of a better word within the KC guidelines which are there to protect the bitch. Even then - it does not protect her from unscrupulous breeders who want to and can breed at every season and choose not to register the litters. Some have been known to only register occasional ones but still breed as often as possible from the same bitch.

hth

Pam n the boys

Hi
My feelings about it for what its worth is if the dog is only going to be a pet its nice to have a pedigree to go with the dog but it doesn't really matter unless you want to breed/show etc. The main thing above all else is the the dog has a good home and is loved for what he/she is.

excactly--my point """WHATEVER HE/SHE IS""" and it could be anything

Dizzy
Oh you do tend to put emphasis on things to try and make a point to invite a response. Could you please in this case just accept the message as I printed without hinting at a hidden meaning which isn't there or intended.
Innuendos such as these arn't really necessary and you may find people will stop replying to questions which the questioners may or may not find helpful, but it is really up to them to decide.
Thanks

but its true-ive seen it happen, someone thinks theyre buying a bargain as its a pedigree [right] , just hasnt got papers [right] , but they can turn out to be nothing at all like the breed theyre meant to be!
there may also be very good reasons the parents werent registered by their breeders , possible health or temparament issues, so the breeder safeguards his stock by witholding and not registering the pup.!-theyve tried there best to safeguard the breed, -however the pup bought without papers is then bred on from . who's to know if its not registered that it really is what theyre saying,
i cant see any excuse for it,
i see your point that its up to the writer todecide, but i wondered if they where seing the possible implications :D

I understand what you're saying Dizzy but I wasn't one of the ones who shot down a breeder in idle chat and I still say, as I said above that
The most important thing I think you need to consider is the parents temperaments and have they had any health checks that are relevent to the breed.
I still feel the above two are more important than what the dog looks like if it is to be a pet and companion.

Sara :)

can i just say bud and cleo are not kc, but i have there ped papers, and they come from a good background, they have a fantastic temp, and they are fantastic dogs, i have no problem what ever selling pups without kc, as this is what people want, they dong want to show them so there is no need to buy a dog with kc, that is there opinion and i do agree debbie

Here Here!!!! if I could applaud on here I would... :)
At last someone that agrees that there is no need for KC Reg. :D

Lynsey writer of thread and causer of all cufuffle :D

I dearly would love to now walk away from this post but my morals are telling me not to..as potential puppy buyers may read this.

Debbie and Lynsey you are the 2 promoting none KC reg puppies but the most obvious thing is you both either own, breed and are buying non KC puppies. Debbie I am sure you said on the other thread that you wished or had thought your dog was KC and agreed that it would be better if it was. ( I may be wrong though).

I am not wishing to argue with either of you but you both seem to be missing the whole point,

It is not for money, snobbery, greed or any other selfish thing that Good breeders use the KC process it is for the breed and breed only. Cetainly not the breeders, owners, judges that I associate with and none of the are snobs just caring people.

Sorry girls but I feel you are being very tunnel visioned about this.

You will only have to look in any rescue to see how hard it is to rehome mongerals and I am sure there are lots of people on the board who can tell you this without encourage adding to them.

Best wishes.

Pam

Most breeders use and plan their lines well, use all the health checks that are registered with the KC also, so I cannot for the life of me understand how any reasonably inteligent person could think that good breeders would use the KC procedure for anything else nor can I see how anyone can say they know their dogs have great lines if they can't.

I do not know about health problems is Yorkies but the KC registration scheme records checks and good breeders put endorsements to prevent dogs that are not 100% tip top boing bred from for the good of their breed.

People work hard and spend along time on thier breed and use th KC system to help and support their program not as a way of abusing it.

Pam.

yes but then you have the breeders that are registered breeder opting which litter they register and dont, also what is to stop a person that owns a dam and sire that are un registered breeding??(bearing in mind to get un registered dams and sires to breed from in this case there must be breeders that dont KC reg? who's right is it to say they shouldn't??..

whilst I appreciate everyones views and believe me I do, I do not agree with some, but then thats just normal.

I just feel that for a pet dog there is no reason for KC reg, I can see there needs to be regulations etc for show dos, but why for pet dogs??..if I am missing the point I am because it makes no sense to me.

I do not feel I being tunnel visioned at all..quite the reverse..why wouold I start this thread if I was not interested in all your views?...but my feelings are you are talking about two different issues, showing an dogs purely as pets, completely different needs and concerns, especially when the pet is not to be bred from.

Lynsey

Lynsey I think you are getting registered breeders and KC registered Dogs muddled up. ( I think)

A registered breeder can breed dogs that are not KC reg or KC reg that is not the issue.. If the parents are not KC the pups can never be can never be KC reg puppies. ( A registered breeder is nothing to do with the Kennel Club at all, a registered breeder is someone who breeds regularly as a business and the council have granted then a breeder licence)

I will put this question to you? Why are the puppies not registered? I cannot think of a valid reason unless there is something missing in the pedigree.

My neighbour has two westie like dogs and I have 2. I paid £400 and £550 for 2 well bred KC registered Westies. I have a guarentee from the breeders that they are 100% westies and if they resembled anything else I would be more than able to get my money back.

My neighbour bought 2 westies that are not KC registered. one I believe is Dog lover registered..or whatever it is.. and they look more like poodles than westies.. the only connection is they are white. She paid £350 for each of them. One has eye problems which happens in many dogs but if you don't know they real lines how can you go back to the various breeders and point the problem out. With a KC reg dog you can. It is all part of the breeding program and procedures.

If you want a puppy for a pet with no guarentee then the local pound has hundreds and hundreds. For around £40-£80. I bet you are paying more for you puppy than this.

The thing is Lynsey think about what I am saying , I gain nothing from saying this, I don't breed but I can tell you I have seem some puppy churners in my times.

If you are happy with your puppy I am happy as I said earlier but please don't promote it or encourage it you will do your dogs breed no good honestly. :-(

BFN

Pam

I am sorry I dissagree.

There is a reason for the puppies to not be registed if their mum and dad weren't registered, there there is no way they can be...so what are they supposed to do? that is why I say in that case they make very good pet dogs. Its obvious I will never agree on this, and I was willing to hear peoples views to see if I would, but I think that to say all puppies should be KC reg is very narrow minded and looking at the world with rose coloured spectacles as my mum would say...it isn't going to happen is it.

And yes I have had dogs from rescue centres before, when I was a child, nothing wrong with those, but we wanted a yorkie an the yorkies there are all 'special cases'

Lynsey

So why weren't the parents of the mum and dad of pup not registered than? Thats 4 dogs withough KC registration - why?

parents of mum and dad were registed...but somewhere along line some 'breeder' musta decided they weren't going to register that litter hence pups no KC reg...cant blame the pups ! :D

2 breeders must have decided - as i assume that the mum and dad came from different litters? Just seems awfully dubious to me - why not register, unless endirsed, under or over age breeding or saving the money???

:-(( Lynsey do you really believe that deep down that this is the real reason?
I don't and I feel you may have a hard time finding someone else who will.

Can I ask how much the puppies are?

Pam :-)

yes I do believe that there are breeders that choose not to KC reg their dogs, I do not feel that makes the puppies inferior in any way and I am sorry you all feel that way, maybe I am a minoity but then I am happy to be so, I seem also to be a minority that wouldn't give money to a breeder who docked the tails off a yorkie, but again I am happy to be there.. keep saying the same things back to me wont change my mind, I do not agree with KC reg a pet dog, what is the point?..and I have heard your points for it and again I dont agree

>>>I do not agree with KC reg a pet dog, what is the point?..

Lynsey - I believe your first Yorkie is KC registered and she's a good pet right ? So no problem her being registered :)

I think you need to careful that you do not presume ALL breeders who are not KC registering their litters are ethical. Reading your posts I feel that perhaps where your pup is coming from is fine.

There are breeders though who do not register litters with the KC because they can't - they use their bitches as breeding machines, litter after litter after litter. Some use dogs with dodgy temperments. They don't care because the problem pups will be someone elses problem. There may be health problems (eye diseases, bad hips, heart problems etc) in the breeding stock and someone is going to end up with a pup who costs a fortune in vets bills and suffers :(
In my local paper this week there are 3 adverts for puppy farmers :( The pups are not cheaper either than KC registered ones. One breeder lists about 10 breeds, one about 7 breeds and the other about 6 breeds. I've seen dogs locally from these places - some are barely recognisable as the breed they are suppossed to be and are in and out of the local vets all the time - some are destroyed because they have a nasty streak.

I am not saying that ALL breeders who don't register pups are like the breeders above but many are. That is why I advised you to check what the parents of your pups characters were like and their health.

Because of the code of ethics Kennel Club breeders follow the above problems are minimised.
To register a pup with the KC is not hugely expensive but rearing a fit, healthy litter is. The registration part is a minor cost in the scale of things.

I have personally since leaving home owned a non registered GSD, a KC registered GSD, and now two KC registered Golden retrievers.

I would personally always buy a KC registered dog now - my personal choice.

In an ideal world I'd like to see some system introduced where ALL dogs breed were on some registration scheme limiting numbers of litters per bitch, relevent health checks for both parents and so on where there could be NO loopholes. This does not seem possible though :( The IDEAL scheme does not exist but the KC scheme is the closest we have at present.

I'm sure you don't like the idea of puppy farms and the like either. Yes there are some breeders who do not KC register litters who have their dogs best interests at heart but you have to recognise there are some who don't.

Sara

I am with you all the way Lynsey

>>>There is a reason for the puppies to not be registed if their mum and dad weren't registered, there there is no way they can be...so what are they supposed to do? <<<

Not breed from them,!!!! What reason do they have for breeding anyway?

I did not see your answer to way the breeder is not able to register the puppies? or why the parents are not Registered? ask and see.

Pam

I did reply to this, I said the dogs she purchased were not registed probably becasue a breeder chose not to register that litter, not her fault the breeders, so therefore the puppies they had could not under KC rules be registered.

Lynsey,

I can assure you if a genuine breeder decided for whatever reason not to register pups that were eligble to be registered then they would not have been sold to be bred from. Maybe the breeder didn't think they were good enough specimens of the breed. or that she just dod not want then bred from.

Lynsey I am sorry but Good breeders just don't do this. There are some that kepp papers back till the pup has grwon up and is an ideal specimen and has had all the tests, or that the breederhas sold good pups as pets but not to be bred from as some do but they do not sell puppies without papers with the intention of them being bred from. Not in the world I live in anyway.

Did you say how much you are paying for the puppy? Not that is makes much difference to my opinion but just wondered.

Pam

Without the dog being registered you have no proof that the dog is who the breeder says it is. It is as simple as that. To all intents and purposes it is a mongrel and as such, a puppy buyer would have no idea what the dog would grow up to look like.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being nasty but I don’t know you and if I was a puppy buyer I would be buying from a stranger. How would I know the puppies were sired by who you said they were? How would I even know that even if it was that the sire really is a true bred? It might look right but that is no guarantee. Nor is it a guarantee that if it is NOT a true bred that the puppies will even grow up to look like the sire? The whole thing is fraught!

John

Lyndsey,

Most times that breeders with registered dogs do not kc register their litter is because they have contravened the kc code [femles must be a year old and not more than 6(?8), and have no more than 1 litter in any 12 months]. It could also be that the dog had endorsement on its registration to try and stop just anyone sticking dog 1 with dog 2. Who do you know of (kc registered breeders) who "choose" not to register one litter over another with real reasons beside these??? Because should a breeder "chose" not to kc reg a litter, then why are they breeding that litter in the first place? Obviously not for them be able to keep one... And in your case - where did these dogs come from? did they come from registered stock themselves, or not? Becuase if they didn't you have absolutley no ideas whether they are pure bred...

The point is that anyone breeding dogs for the good of the breed (and you must agree that that is really the only justifiable reason that one should breed) and they could kc reg why on earth they wouldn't do it? If you see the need for regulations for showing - but what is the difference between a pet dog and a show bred dog? Their may be one good show dog in every 2 litters, but the regulations governing the conduct of the breeders applies to all those dogs... do you think that it shouldn't???, surely those regulations should apply to every one that breeds dogs? - and this is what the kc does, not just guarentee that you have a pure breed.

I have 2 staffords, one i bought purely as a pet the other as show... it never crossed my mind that i would buy without papers - i wanted exactly te same regulations to apply to both my dogs - because even the one i bought for show is my pet - and they are both pets and family dogs first and foremost and i wanted the best that i could get as they are to be with my for many many years.

If people continue to buy unregistered (to my mind badly bred) dogs then people will carry on breeding them, which will put more dogs out their for other people to think "oh, what a good idea to breed, even thpugh i never intended onit when i bought my dog, she is very pretty" and so it goes on - and so so many of these dogs end up in rescue: disposable.

I asked if you knew when her last litter was - not how many she had had. And it always interests me that the majority of people who breed willy nilly always seem to have a male and a female in the house, and always do repeat matings. I do not know any breeders - show or not - that keep intact males and females inthe house together... and even if they do they would go outside to find the best possible match between lines so that what they produce could be the best that they could produce. Even if this was a show breeder, three quarters if not more of the litter, would go to pet homes...

I for one would much rather have a pup knowing that all this hard work and research had gone into it - rather than a pup that comes from a breeder who happened to let their dogs get together!

Alex

valid point you DID ask when her last litter was...when she was 2 now shes 4..

just ringing around breeders when I was looking I found breeders saying that they were 'not goin to register this litter '

I rang the Lady I mentioned (a yorkie judge and rescue co-ordinator) for advice and guidance , who elese was better to advise? in my opinion no one. She advised that it made no difference to the uppy I was getting and as that echoed what I felt I took the advice, and so will many more.

What kind of breeders were you ringing round? Not going to register this litter with who? What reasons did they give for not registering this litter??

If i rang a breeder and they said that to me, i would have no more to do with the breeder - simple as that , because if they weren't going to register the litter there has to be a reason for it!

they gave reasons like, "you can only register a certain amount of litters and I dont want to use up a time I can register on this liter?"...now if I am hearing that when I ring around, and it wasn't just one breeder, what am I suppsoed to think?

that is why I didn't get a puppy from those breeders...so we agree on something :D

but I dont think a breeder who chooses to be honest and states quite clearly that the puppiesare not KCReg should be made out to be a bad breeder...I dont agree full stop

I did think cleo was kc when i bought her, and like i have said it makes no difference as i have no interest in showing, and i am sorry but i do get checks done on my dogs, there hips and eyes have been given the once over by the vet, with no problems. It makes no difference that cleo is not kc as she is breed with bud and he is not kc.
To me as long as the dogs have an ex temp. and from good stock then i do not see there is a problem.

Can i just say that i did get shouted at on my post by certain people, and then they emailed me direct to say they thought that i had been given a hard time.

There is no way a vet giving your dogs *hips & eyes the once over* you will be getting a true picture of any health probs. A vet is just that, a vet and not a specialist. He can not score the hips nor be able to examine the eyes properly. A once over by the vet is not good enough.
Christine, Spain.

The dogs were checked and the vet saw no problem in breeding, he may not be an expert on the issues that you have stated. Like i have said christine, i do know buds back ground very well and there have been no problem with hips and eyes.

Hi Debbie, unless your dogs have had their hip xrays scored by the experts your vet cannot tell you they have no problem. Same with the eyes, there are diseases that can only be detected by an opthalmologist & your vet, again, can not tell you if they have such diseases or not. Your vet cannot say he`s got no problem with you breeding from them, he is not qualified to do so on those issues.
Christine, Spain.
PS, knowing the family of Bud cannot dertimine the outcome of his eyes or hips, only by having him tested by vets qualified in those fields can give him a clean bill of health concerning hips/eyes.
Christine, Spain.

I can tell you now! I have seen vets X-ray plates of hips and to take their word as gospel that your dog is ok is ludicrous.

I had my bitch hip X-rayed recently by my practice and the plate was shocking. Her body was twisted on the plate, it was underexposed and the KC number was unreadable-yet my vet thought this was perfectly ok to send to the BVA for scoring!

Thank heavens I saw this plate before it was sent because she would have come back with a horrifically lopsided score. Money down the drain for me as I had to pay for a useless plate. Do not rely on "pet practice" vets for scoring your dogs.

Debbie, why have your dogs got *Dog Lovers Club Registration* papers then, if it doesn't matter? Did I not see you list an *AFFIX* from the DLC? Why do you need an affix? Do you have to apply to the DCL for your *affix* or will any old word do?

If you're supplying the market with non registered dogs, why have they got these registration papers? Is it because you can then charge KC reg prices for your puppies or am I way off mark here? :-) When 'joe public' approach you for a pedigree dog, do you explain that they are not KC reg and that your *affix* isn't KC recognised? Do you explain what a DLC registration form means and at your own admittance, isn't worth the paper it is written on? Just curious :-)

Leigh, when i first got cleo and bud I had no idea what DLC was, so i registered with them and yes it was a load of rubbish, so i do not sell the pups with these papers, the pups go to there new homes with there ped papers and not DLC. I do not charge KC prices for my pups. I tell everyone that wants one of my pups that there not kc, and they are happy with this as they too have no interest in showing.

Cleo and buds DLC papers are in the draw and never to be brought out again as that was a waste of my time and money, but i knew no better then. I would not recomend anyone to register with that club for the reasons that i have just given.

Like i have said i have there ped papers and to me that is enough, I have emailed pics to rottys breeders with kc dogs and they have all said that my dogs are a ex example of the breed kc papers or not.

debbie

Leigh does that answer you questions?

Hi Debbie,

My freind bought a lovely rottie for showing a few years back. She too was ignorant at the time and thought the bit of paper she had called a pedigree was all she needed.

When the bitch was around 10 months old my freind tried to enter her first show only to find out that the bitch she had was not only Not KC registered but the pedigree name was a bitch who had died a couple of years earlier.

Gutted as she was and in love with the dog as she was ian expensive lesson. She dressed the bitch and then bought anther lovely bitch from very good Rottie breeders in Fife. She now shows this girl with good results and is thinking abought breeding her next year after she has had all her tests done and 100% cleared. BTW they were only £75 difference in price also.

She knew nothing about her first bitches history and whilst she would not encourage it in any breed she could not take the risk with what is her own words is a powerful breed and lines she had not REAL knowledge about. You will find alot if not most of the names on these pedigrees are not even tied to REAL affixes.

She to thought the breeders were lovely people but when she asked them a year later all about it they didn't want to know.

If all you do is think about it that I have acheived my aim..

best wishes Pam.

when cleos mum breed with the dad, the owner thought he was kc because of his affix name, they were wrong that is why cleo is not kc. I did get intouch with kc to do some checking on her ped papers, and everything that was on them was true and no problems there.

I do have a friend who has kc rottys, and we talk alot, she has the same opinion as me, that my dogs are a fine example of the breed and she does not see that there is a problem in breeding them.

I have no interest what so ever on showing, the people that buy my pups are well aware that they are not kc and are happy with this, one man who has a bitch is also having another bitch from the next litter, he has no intensions of breeding and both dogs will be spayed.

Hi Debbie,
Lynsey is looking from purchasing a pup side of the coin and although it's not for me, it's her choice and if she's happy with what she knows then it's up to her.

However, you are looking from the breeders point of view in which case IMHO no way should someone breed 2 dogs from a KC Registered breed if the 2 dogs in question are not registered. It begs to ask the question of why aren't they registered? what has the breeder got to hide? You said in a previous thread that you had papers but didn't know if they were true. There's your answer.
I'm sorry I don't agree with you but it is only MHO.
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