My youngest terrier has bitten my father in law and now i'm not sure whether to have put to sleep. Its not the first time she has grabbed visitors when they come into the kitchen but we have managed it pretty well with time and education of our guests.
Her history is that I bred her and her mum is totally the opposite temperament, very laid back and lovely with everyone, no hang ups. Her baby (now 3) is much more terrier typical in her nature, she is much more hyper when out and on guard of most things. Always chased bikes and the forest ponies, though we certainly have this under control through lots of training but she's still not trustworthy off lead. She will also stalk other dogs that come towards us and if walkers dont have a dog then she stalks them and would if given the chance charge up and grab hold of feet.

She has always been unaccepting of strangers into the kitchen area where my dogs stay (its very large with utility attached). Actually its not even strangers some of our family she will have ago at them even though they come in and out several times a day. Now this is always controlled as my husband and i stop her from getting to people until the other 4 dogs have settled after saying hello and the person is in the room, we tell them not to talk to her and stand still at which point all she does is sniff there feet she then goes off and does nothing else and the person can freely move about without problems. We shut her away sometimes and then let her back in once the person is in, again she rushes over to them sniffs feet and then settles.

we always always warn and tell our guests not to speak to the dogs when they enter the kitchen and not to put hands down to stroke as this is when she will lunge up and grab fingers. SHe sounds and gets really cross that the person is in the room or house (barks non stop when she hears a different voice in the house), but like i say once the person is in and we have avoided her getting to them, she is fine and will even settle at thier feet.

Today my my father in law despite being told how she is and not to go in the kitchen if the dogs are excited ignored this, he spoke to them over the child gate and even though she was going mad still climbed over it at which point she grabbed his foot and as he bent down to push her off she grab his hand. He now has a big plaster on his foot and finger as she broke the skin and its bleeding. He understandably is shaken up but cant understand it as hes been here since monday and has been in and out the kitchen with no trouble.

Its like she forgets who people are except for me, my husband and 2 children. I do have a soft muzzle which we put on very occassionally when she is barking loads at visitors.

I have in the past used a behaviour therapist who came to the house and was good, he had worked with the dogs from battersey. He did recommend a uncented spray collar which worked for a short while but did not solve it. I have tried rewarding all the times she is good and stays calm but this still hasn't solved it. I do click and treat when out walking and most of the time she reponds to this but then can forget totally and we get undesriable behaviour where she is so hyper i cannot get her attention back.

I also used to show her and she progressively became worse at being touched by the judge, got to snapping point so we no longer do it.

I am very upset at what has just happened as obviously she seems to have forgotten who he was plus he hasn't taken any notice of what i've said about her. I have discussed it with my husband (in tears) and feel perhaps the safest thing is to have her put to sleep, i cant have this again, i feel so bad. I've not had a dog like this before and cannot understand why she is like it. All my others i have had from pups (4) and none are like this so where would she have learnt to be like this.

sorry this is so long but perhaps just need to air feelings.

I have no idea on where you can start with this. Wanted to offer you lots of free cyber hugs :-)

Has she had a check up at the vets recently, full bloods etc? and her eyes checked and hearing?
What is she like when on her own? So if you remove all the other dogs and left her in the kitchen/utility, does she react in the same way?
Do the other dogs get excited by people walking in, in a good way? Just thinking maybe she is getting wound up by the other dogs and just can't contain herself?

Just trying to see if there is anything else. Just does seem rather odd that you fil has been at your for a few days and she is still  behaving in this way..

thank you.
going to speak to the vet tomorrow about it, she hasn't had a check up for a year because she's been well, now due for jabs.
On her own she is slightly better but will still bark and rush up to visitors which to them might be a bit scarey. The other dogs get excited in agood friendly way to visitors, wagging tails all wanting fuss, 2 of the dogs are springers and the other 3 are terriers.
Not sure if its insecurity and fear from her or just pure horridness of not wanting anyone around the other 4 or us. she just seems to have a lot of hang ups.

she has just come into season on sunday but she is always like it and from an early age. She has only just stopped being like towards my daughter up until 6months ago she used to have ago at her when she came in!

I feel sad that i've failed in some way and cant help her. I bred her because i wanted to start showing, she is my first show dog and its all gone wrong.

Hi,

oh no what a terrible situation to be in.

I agree with Suejaw, have her vet checked first and see if she has some hidden medial problems. Then maybe go and try another behaviourist. What sort of terrier is she? How long has she been reacting to people like this for? Can you remember a situation when it first occurred (where it happened, who was involved, what environment were you in)? Your previous behaviourist may have already asked you these questions but maybe it is good to go right back to the start and begin from scratch?

Does she warn before she bites or does she just go for it?

Don't give up without a "fight" just yet!

Maybe people on here that live in your area can recommend a behaviourist, or maybe even your vet.

Good luck, I am sure there is someone out there to help you with this.

one of my dogs is the same and settles once a person sits down but as soon as they stand up she starts again. shes ok if she knows someone but if she doesnt like someone  i will put a muzzle on her.
i would def see what vet says but i would also put the blame where it should lie. if your FIL was told not to enter that area or touch the dog and he still did it then its on his own head- dont blame the dog

Tina s is right there... don't blame the dog! You explicitly educated them how to behave when entering the territory and they didn't do what you told them to do...many of accidents due to biting are due to human error...

as far as i can remeber she's done it from an early age but i suppose in the beginning you put it down to being a pup. She has never done it with my son or myself and husband but until 6 months ago would do it to my daughter when she came in, she jumped up at her leg once and nipped and drew blood (my duaghter has just turned 18 so not a little child).
My step son has been with us in the week since april and she still does it to him when he comes home from work! she's the same with my mother so its not just men.
It really is like she cannot remember who's who.

She has a name for herself with all of our friends and family so that gets me down as well. I just dont know what i've done.

My mother in law has been in and out the kitchen all evening while we've been in the lounge (double doors open from lounge to kitchen with gate across so i can keep an eye on things) and Mabel has not moved a paw, not been bothered by her at all, so i am muddled by it all and can guess she cant deal with the other 4 dogs getting excited or maybe attention.

I know he was part to blame but it doesnt make me feel better as there is an 'atmosphere' of quietness in the house. He says hes ok but hes obviously not.

Call me harsh or unrealistic - but have absolutely NO sympathy for folk who refuse to follow instructions or do as they are told - no WAY would I be putting down one of my dogs because some other muppet did something I have expressly told them not to do!

Her biting IS predictable, her problem is known if not fully understood.

She does warn before she bites... so i really cant see that the problem warrants such a severe cure.

However, IS she a happy dog? Can you implement the likely fix without causing further distress?

I think youve been given a bum steer by the previous behaviourist, punishing this isnt going to help, this is a fear reaction, and shes dealing with her fear in a very typically terrier way - 'tell it to go away, if it doesnt, bite it'. Using punishment like a spray collar will only make that worse, in trying to supress the symptom.

IF you can sort out the management aspect to this problem, so that people do NOT go into the room shes guarding/where she has the problem then you can fix it by counter conditioning. However if you will always have people in the house, unsupervised by you, who will not follow your instructions.... then you may have to consider other options, including, sadly, pts.

ETA: I do know some of what you are going through here, my Tibetan Terrier has issues with meeting strangers and his answer to his fear is to rush them and leap and snap and bark (i think its mixed fear and excitement as he is a people lover, he dashes in all excited, then suddenly, too close, realises he doesnt know this person and reacts fearfully. People also stare at him and grab for him as hes a 'cute cuddly' dog which makes the issue 100 times worse, and some how people are MORE offended when a cute fluffy dog snaps at them or growls or barks at them than when a bigger dog does it!!!).

My own father is not permitted within sight of Errol because he refuses point blank to do as I ask, insisting instead that the dog 'should be trained' (yes he is being), and 'should tolerate anything' (no, no he shouldnt) and 'ill do what i like' (not in my house you wont).

It should come as no surprise that damn near every dog my father has met or got within 30ft of has either yelled at him or bitten him - you'd think hed realise HE is the common factor but he doesnt, hes as unreasonable and immature as a 5 year old brat!.

Back to the original poster :)

I'd suggest you contact Sally Sanford. She is a lovely trainer and behaviourist, but more to the point has many years of experience and knowledge and has the highest standard of training and education you can get in this country.

Her contact details are here : http://www.apdt.co.uk/trainers_area.asp?area=Dorset

I agree the first person you saw was not the best, because suggesting a spray collar in this situation would be more likely to encourage feelings of fear etc. I suspect your dog's behaviour is fear based, but being a terrier she is not backward in expressing her views :)

Good luck with the problem.

Lindsay
x

a really good shaking and light face smacks...yelling at her...anything that makes her unhappy ...

Is that the way you teach children right from wrong, (yours or other peoples) I certainly hope not, so don't do it to a dog. This will achieve nothing except to TEACH aggression instead of stopping it. I really cannot believe you think this will resolve matters.

why would anyone want to do 'light face smacking' or shouting in a dogs face? how can violence work on a dog? i wouldnt even use a rolled up newspaper on a dogs bottom as used to be the norm when i was growing up

Please do not ever suggest someone hits their dog, no matter how light it is extremely dangerous, especially a dog that is already biting. As we have told you time and time again aggression causes an increase in aggression. I quite agree with Lindsay's comments, you are not a behaviourist and should not be suggesting such extreme methods for a dog with a possible fear biting problem.

But the point is that the quick whack may not save a life at all, its more likely to put the owner at risk of being badly bitten and give them even more of a reason to put the dog to sleep. Very dangerous advice and shouldn't even be used as a last resort.

ja...off that subject...reading that link...but don't understand...what is a WHISPERER ? this BE NICE to dogs article...mentions whisperers in same league as dog beaters ....increases aggression...

well i whisper to my pup to talk to her...not threateningly...just prefer to say things quietly to her...i was thinking of the HORSE WHISPERER..which i did nto see the film but is apparently about being nice to break horses in...so what is this anti whisperering thing ? and reading...but does not seem yet to be clear to me

The dog whisperer is what Cesar Milan a dog trainer from America calls himself. He uses very punitive methods similar to what you are advocating which can cause serious mental and physica harm to a dog. Many people (myself included) do not agree with his methods. However, that is for another thread as this is slightly off topic.

ach so...thx lucymeg...well shame it brings to mind horse whisperer to me and others probably so not understood

I wish you wouldn't hit your dog, light face smacking or not I think it is abusive behaviour. I saw a man do this once, after his dog ran off and came to play with us, maybe because he used to smack it about the head when it finally came back, the dog quite clearly did not understand why it was being hit, it had me in tears at the time.

Just cruel.

Well black fairy, I had growling from my gsd as a pup, not once did I smack her and at 5 years old now she is the softest thing you could imagine. She also used to bite quite hard when she played and got over excited, with my young daughter at the time too. There are other ways around it. I also had growling (guarding) issues from my 1 year old rottie we have had for 4 months, he no longer growls and he has never been smacked, I am not sure I'd want to find out what happened if I smacked him either.

Also, 'lightly' smacking a puppy is not an accident.

If you smack because you lose patience this isn't a punishment, you lashed out through losing your temper, it's cruelty and teaches nothing. You will maybe find you have problems when your pup is in it's teens - I wouldn't advise smacking then either.

You seem quite content to defend your actions though so I presume you will take none of this on board. I knew nothing about dog training when I first had my gsd as a pup - that's why my user name is new owner, to which I am no more. I learnt practically everything through these boards and an excellent trainer who used to post here (patty - not sure if she still posts). I took on board all advice and realised reward and praise was the way to go, not smacking.

I have nothing else to add.

Also I apologise for not staying on the current theme of the opening poster - I can't offer any help there I am afraid but I hope you manage to find a solution.

Well I'm putting Black Fairy on ignore now -that option has been VERY useful recently. I can't take all these recommendations of dog abuse that we've seen recently. This forum is really being dragged downhill by just two posters. :(

Hi black fairy - just wondering if you contacted any of the links I sent to you, about positive reward training in your area of France?
The MFEC is based not far from you and has Ian Dunbar as a patron, he regularly lectures for them - it's all good training methods involving clickers and other. I think you'd enjoy it :)

Hi Marianne,

I tend to agree however I have also been somewhat dismayed recently at the way new posters are being dealt with when they ask for advice. I realise that many people do not like to hear a painful truth but many posters (not yourself) seem to feel that simply because they are behind a keyboard any semblance of manners or diplomacy can be dispensed with.

All the best,

Jeff.  

> i have emailed them and asked them why they do not quote the dog pooh pooh laws and behaviour for dog owners on their website.

Now have I got this right: you emailed the MFEC about dog poo laws, not about actually taking your dog to their classes or find out about modern positive training methods? Really?
If this is so then why did I bother searching Google.fr with my LIMITED french to even bother helping you find better training classes and ways to train your puppy?

>the MENTAL STATE of a dog ? humans have MANY ways ! what MEDICATION is available to MENTALLY UNSTABLE DOGS ? i know of NONE !

There are medications for mentally unstable dogs, but naturally these are only available under a vet's control.

oh gosh... this discussion has turned rather very heated... here's a woman with a cry for help and advice. And yes, loads of advice has been given. Some good, some controversial. But seriously I don't think poo laws have anything to do with this topic, nor will it help with solving a problem case.

> i trust i make myself quite clear...all you suffered was searching on the internet...

Obviously I wasted my time.

> But seriously I don't think poo laws have anything to do with this topic, nor will it help with solving a problem case.

I quite agree... someone's gone off on a personal crusade which is nothing to do with this thread.

Jeangenie is right, there is medication for various kinds of mentally unstable dogs, and the vet will have to assess which one and which dose is to be administered... however they may only surpress the unwanted behaviour and will not cure it...and when the course of tablets is over, the behaviour might return and some dogs even develop withdrawal syndroms.

But I think it is most important to have your dog health checked and then discuss with the vet what could be a possible treatment plan.

>so if you are offended so be it. i do not care for such matters, i do care about health and public duties regarding faeces of dogs etc that cause diseases to humans and dogs "

But perhaps you could refrain from taking another posters thread way off topic.  I know you've had this advice before and out of consideration to Lorripop who is asking for help perhaps you could take your chosen subject to a new thread and remain focussed on each separate topic.  Thank you

Black fairy, this is so unfair to the OP who genuinely ask for help, you have consitantly taken over her thread.. this is nothing short of rude...

Your behaviour is appauling!

> Well I'm putting Black Fairy on ignore now

You're not the first - and you won't be the last.  :-)

Black Fairy....why do you write some words in capital letters ?

> Call me harsh or unrealistic - but have absolutely NO sympathy for folk who refuse to follow instructions or do as they are told - no WAY would I be putting down one of my dogs because some other muppet did something I have expressly told them not to do!
>
>

Hear!  Hear!

i am not sure what has happened here?? my post got locked by the moderator so i had to start a new one in order to answer questions some of you had asked in order to help further, now i'm not sure where this one has gone and this thread is not helping me re 'poo' laws.

someone had asked if dog was happy and i was unsure as she keeps herself to herself, trots away from being fussed or even stroked unless its first thing in the morning. She really seems attention shy and is not comfortable when her personal space is invaded. She never goes for people when they attempt to fuss but she backs off.

never got the chance to speak to vet today as parents in law are still here and i need time alone to discuss things properly and time alone to contact sally without any interuptions.

my little terrier has been fine today with no problems of parents in law going into the kitchen at all, though they are more aware of what she can be like so are cautious.

Hi Lorripop,

I did explain why the thread was locked, sorry if you missed it.
It seems a good time to remind members that if a particular poster offends or says something untoward the prudent course of action is to report the matter to a Moderator and of course you all have the option to use the "ignore" option which I am sometimes envious of! :-)

Thanks,

Jeff.

i make a final wished posting on this subject. i find the rudeness towards me of certain members here uncalled for. just because someone does not take advice given or expresses a view does not mean like a pack of hyennas some people feeling superior need to verbally aggress that person for their views.

the matter of an aggressive terrier that the owner is considering putting down due to biting regularly - is not one to be dealt with in my view with soft talking go see expert trainers any longer...that route has been taken...i suggested fro the first time a possible reason...mental instability - that is not easy to diagnose or treat in dogs as they do not have speech..and only tranquiliser type medication is likely to be available to dogs...how refined compared to humans can one get with dogs that cannot speak ? neurosis, psychosis, paranoia, schizophrenia...just to mention a few technically complex illnesses humans suffer from.

it is EASY to jump on bandwagons of the latest be nice to every dog stuff we are not alphas that is modern book selling stuff..and by the way...i did not digress in this thread..some offended i had not joined the latest club of some duncan name used globally member here started that up...but i was criticised...but let me quote a relevant to this topic part of this latest CULTURE CLASH book that i found very patronising in many respects and incorrect albeit praised as the latest revolution in dog understanding by a duncan chap...it states...that society needs to GET TO ACCEPT THAT DOGS BITE....now ...that i say is contrary to what society needs and wants...i say...

dogs bite...but when dangerously and harmfully no, as a society we cannot accept it...there are enough dogs around that do NOT bite to say it is NOT common to all dogs...and this terrier...has yes an unacceptable level of biting of known to it familly members...and it is i sympathise and admire the owner for hard to say...let me put it down...but hey...better than continue to risk the bites to humans....and...my suggestion of spanking it to make it stop biting as a last resort...was intended as stated TO SAVE ITS LIFE...and i say...if people advise silly things like talk to it...go get some expensive more trainer advice...that is not caring or sensible...this owner knows the dog...it is a biter...of people it knows...becoming dangerous...time to take harsher measures.

and they might work.

i had a dog..that from a pup due to being beaten was a public danger to bite.....hated other people...i was ABLE TO CONTROL her with one look or word from me for 13 years...she was NOT A TERRIER breed which i stated here as a breed seems more difficult to control...so statements about other breeds are not relevant here...it has to be relevant...related...and my dog was for me easy to control...i am harsh...meanign i tolerate no discussion over major issues...and i and this dog had just 1 clash physically when she showed me age 1 year old her teeth...i whacked her...she never never did it again...not afraid of me...adored me...but i would have KILLED her if she had bitten anyone else without my permission yes...and she FELT that...she was not stupid..dogs...my dogs...SENSE ME more than i need to tell them things yes.

as does black fairy...my belgian...a biting pup to me not others i add....and i tolerate much pain from her...she is an unusual pup for that...and my vet gave me acceptable reasons for her behaviour and lack of bite control...and i do not squeel or hit her for it...except 3 slight taps on her face...that were acceptable...to me and her...we understood each other...and THAT is what is important...does the dog UNDERSTAND WHY...and yes she did.

and finally rudeness...i find the rudeness of the superior feeling persons here making negative comments to me rude...so let us all agree on that...we find each other rude...i am entitled to say that having been accused of it...

the dog i had that was aggressive was a rough collie...beauty...well bred...but at breeders my mother told me later i was a child then she was the last of litter sold and had been beaten there...mother said she cowered much at the start..i do not recall it..she was a confident dog later with me..not afraid..but she hated strangers yes...and would have biten especially kids...hated them...i never knew why...i was a child...very young 14 then...but i controlled my dog for 13 years with no bites to me or others...and i do not say a terrier is as easy to handle as that so humble and say i dunno about terriers with traits more active and less compliant anyways...but mental instability causes yes biting in dogs and they are then dangerous.

i am smiling...black fairy was not pleased i got up as usual this morning...she is not as early a bird as i...so she whined...growled and seized me arm rumbling in her doggy talk to me...i let her chew me a bit...stroked her...said i am getting up cuisine...kitchen...and lifted her off the bed to the floor...she is too small to get off it still for her legs developping...now that is a common DISCUSSION we have my fairy and i...and i accept that from her...growling and chewing me...wrong maybe...but she is trying to communicate wiht me ..she does not do that to anyone else...is GENTLE as a lamb with kids...very...and that is what i want from her...she likes to chew me talk to me...call me daft maybe yes for thinking that...it is new to me this behaviour...and she has to take it easy when she gets annoyed i do not want to continue play...then i refuse to accept her fangs sunk into my arms as her teeth are now becoming adult ones...lol....my arms are covered in her needle pup marks of teeth...but i will control her...as the cat did ...he stuck his claws into her rump and made her squeel in pain when she did it too much to him...and she learnt that way...and to say animals do not TEACH each other with less than gentle ways is silly and blind...so let the dog learn...you bite me ? i bite you...as the last resort when DISCUSSIONS have failed is best...or put them down is what will happen after all teh EXPENSIVE EXPERT wasted advice if it is MENTALLY UNSTABLE !

this is not a place for dictatorship...it is for ADVICE and VIEWS so to take offense that someone DOES NOT TAKE ADVICE about whatever...is silly. last comment. stop being so ARROGANT using capitals to emphasise my point as speech would do better.

To come on a forum and suggest hitting a dog in the face which you are now suggesting is mentally unstable is down right dangerous advice.
You nor anyone else on this forum can not make an assessment of this dogs state of health or mind,so the advice to seek vetinary help and or behavioural help is sound and helpful advice.
Apart form capitals being considered rude and shouting it also makes your posts very difficult to read and therefore your points of emphasis are lost.

i did not suggest hitting it in the face. i said i had smacked my pup for particular described behaviour. i suggested physical punishement should be considered, and i stick by that. to SAVE the dog's life.

it worked...for my collie...she understood why she was whacked for showing me her teeth...if the dog UNDERSTANDS the PUNISHMENT related to the action it has done..it can work...that point i make...and is in line with others here advising newspaper whackings...which i do not do for peeing on carpets or anything like that..but for BITING HUMANS yes...and i use capitals to EMPHASIS the key words...interpret them as you please

i suggest yes...the dog like many could suffer from mental illness...not a point raised by educators on their websites and i make the point mental illness in dogs is VERY HARD to diagnose unlike humans...for obvious reasons...

the owner is considering putting the dog down...surely ALL other options should be considered first is my main point...

but i do agree with the owner...that it is unacceptable behaviour...UNLIKE what the latest fashionable book CULTURE CLASH says about dogs biting...it says as i repeat...society needs to be educated taht dogs bite...i say fine to a point...but it is unacceptable to most normal people to bite familly members and if a dog does that it could bite strangers and kids worse...dangerous...

and i object to being told i am not a dog educator...neither are the people giving other advice here...that is not what this forum is about...we are all ordinary people giving views of personal nature...it is for the READER to DECIDE THEMSELVES what THEY wish to do or believe...and i do not criticise or expect ANYONE for not wishing to accept the views or advice here...THAT IS QUITE CLEAR IN THE FORUM REGULATIONS...this is not an EXPERT VET ETC forum ! this is a DOG OWNERS forum.

too many people here i feel feel themselves qualified to give advice they think is the best...that is wrong...their advice is no better than mine.

mine is based on MY experiences...described as best possible and saying i do not know this breed, do not know enough to be certain..it is just a view

Black Fairy, no-one is expecting you to just allow yourself to be bitten, but you have a young Belgian and they are bitey pups. You can, easily, train her by using more accepted methods which you have been given as help before on here. You've had books suggested and links given to good respected articles. If you lightly slap your pup in the face:

She may think it's a game and respond in kind
It teaches her to stop, (maybe - it doesn't seem to work as she's not stopping) but not what TO do.
She may think it's OK to be really rough, as that is what you are teaching her. No-one can tell over the net but I suspect this may be happening.
She may one day come back at you - she could not be blamed for this
You may ruin your relationship with a dog that could be the best friend you've ever had
Physical punishment, used more than 3 times, which does NOT stop the dog, is abuse.

and so on.

As you know, several of us have Belgians or Bsd crosses, Marianne has Malinois, but you refuse, it seems, to listen to us.

I do apologise to the original poster, for adding this in her thread, but I think this needed saying clearly as possible.

Lindsay
x

lindsay thx for your comments. you are correct, i allow much rough play with me from my pup. my other dogs in the past did not play bite like this, as you say probably a breed thing. and the vet and i here agree she was raised with a hyper pup rather than her mother much so did not learn bite control well.

i will not go on too much on this subject, as i do have more serious issues of human aggression here to me in France to be wary of still...my criticisms of aggression to my pup at dog training classes made on my website...my criticisms of lack of hygene here...many issues....that i take the heat for here and are in line with the policies of the likes of you regarding dogs that i agree with and support.

i am not violent to my pup. i lightly smacked her face a few times recently as she was getting more harsh a bit with me for not playing with her...teenage trantrums i call it...not having had kids myself...but her biting is much less than a few months back...and she bites and chews NOTHING i say NON a simple word to her about...she is very obedient for that i admire that in her...she does understand me.

the issue of the terrier though is more serious in my view, and i sympathise with the owner...i have never owned a terrier, seen many friends with them, my neice has a patterdale cross chichouaua horror ...delightful with me and people it likes...a horror on the streets...but is not a biter at all. terriers seem very stubborn dogs is all i can say. i could not handle one for sure...i have had many breeds, but no terriers. i know my limits i think. so i admire those that can control them. my pup is easier to control i think than a terrier, far easier.

lol. pup just WHINED...so ? she wants to go out...so ? because she has not BITTEN me as she often does to let me know that...i will take her out...so OFF I GO !!!

lol

  >This dog has had every chance. It can't be trusted with it's own family????? <

Who are you addressing this thread has become impossible to follow, perhaps because a large number of the posts are being ignored but I would ask that comments are addressed either to the OP or to who ever they are replying to.

If you are replying to the OP then surely it would be best to wait at least until the services of a vet and behaviourist have employed and listen too. Or have I missed another attack amongst the ignored posts.

If you are replying to the OP then surely it would be best to wait at least until the services of a vet and behaviourist have employed and listen too

I agree completely, I think there are still several more avenues to go down before the pts word. This little dog has a problem whether through physical or mental reasons and maybe his actions are a cry for help from a very unhappy little dog and just maybe a professional would be able to see what that problem can be. Rather like a marriage we take our dogs for better or for worse and in my opinion if it's 'worse' then we don't just kill them and start again with another dog, instead we do our utmost to get help with the problem. However that is just my thinking on owning dogs.

> Rather like a marriage we take our dogs for better or for worse and in my opinion if it's 'worse' then we don't just kill them and start again with another dog, instead we do our utmost to get help with the problem. However that is just my thinking on owning dogs.

Absolutely agree.
And there are some situations where the dog benefits from being elsewhere.... less stress, less people to deal with, less other dogs to deal with. Sometimes a divorce is the right option! :)

Sometimes a divorce is the right option!

Exactly, rather than pts maybe a calm 1 dog family just may be the answer where he will get all the attention without the hassle and excitement of other dogs and lots of people adding to the noise. I am not a behaviourist but maybe a good trainer/behaviourist will be able to assess and advise whether this would be a better option for this little dog. Maybe he just cannot cope with family life and needs to be the only dog.

Think this thread has been chopped up again the post I was replying to has disappeared.

Don't worry, I saw it before it disappeared, so I know what your reply referred to. Rather like now you see it, now you don't, either that or I'm going round the bend!!!!

Glad you saw it too one begins to wonder if all reason have suddenly left you, not helped because this is two threads entwined and one of them I have on ignore.

Hopefully back on topic now, at least my post above was to the OP not the hijacker :)

We are all mad, to some degree! :-) I have only removed one post today as I thought it unhelpful to say the least.

Jeff.

I had stopped replying on this post as it was getting that i couldn't really follow some parts.

Any how things are a little better for me as i posted when probably over reacting to the situation.

I am not having her PTS but going down the behavourist route again to see what help she needs. I totally agree about her perhaps being a dog that would benefit in a one dog environment but this is not an option yet, i bred her and want her to remain with us but will do whats right for her.

She has been absolutely fine since this incident, i feel it was because the other dogs got excited and gets her into a panic/over excited mode that she cant control.

thank you everyone that has been giving supportive advice.