Am after some help regarding my two young dogs fighting. I have 4 dogs one 17 year old jrtx dog, 8 year old staff bitch, 2 year old shih tsu dog and 11/2 year old chinese crested dog. The ones that are causing the prob are the crestie and the shih tzu. Thay get on most of the time with the odd skirmish but seem to be getting worse lately. They have even started fighting in the middle of the night. They both sleep on my bed with the staff and twice now I have been woken up with a growling match and have managed to hold them apart before they have got started which is not appreciated in the wee small hours. I usually get the crestie to go under the covers which he like and sleep with my hand on the shih tsu so they cant stare each other out and start again. I dont know why they have started this at night as they were always fine before. I tried putting the crestie out of the room this morning but he hates being on his own and made such a commotion that I had to put the shih tzu out instead although I think the crestie started it. The crestie is very fixated on my staff bitch and follows her everywhere and sleeps cuddled up to her. The shih tzu is a bit of a loner and prefers my company. Also the crestie is always trying to mount other dogs when we are out, the shih tzu doesnt though. The crestie also scent marks indoors a lot and I was wondering if I had him castrated would this make a difference?

I'd bed the Crestie with/next to the Staffie bitch for company, and the other with the old boy, as they don't have issues.

As the Crestie already marks I would not want him in the bedroom, and I would crate him and work on his house manners re this issue, same with mounting dogs..

I think they will have to be separated at night although my staff will be upset as she like to be with me, she is not as keen on him as he is on her and tolerates him with lots of sighs and stares lol. He is never allowed to be in my bedroom on his own so dont have a problem with him marking in there,as he wont do it in front of me. He tends to go in the same places downstairs but hardly ever catch him in the act. I did try to crate him but he freaks out and the last time he made a big bump on his nose where he was trying to get out.

> I'd bed the Crestie with/next to the Staffie bitch for company, and the other with the old boy, as they don't have issues.

Keeping them off the bed always.  They get idea's above their station if allowed on the bed.

Good luck.  i would n't have put the Shih Tzu out just because the other protested, that will confuse them.

My dogs have always slept on the bed with no probs until now with these two. I left the crestie out but it was 4.30 am and he woke my son up by climbing half way up the loft ladder and screaming the place down. I think will bed the staff and crestie in the spare room and keep shih tzu and oldie with me tonight.

My dogs have always slept on the bed with no pr obs until now with these two.

What went before and what is happening now are two different things.  if sleeping on or in your bed at night is the cause of their arguments, then they would (if mine) would not be sleeping on or in my bed.  If you remove the cause , then the problem may go away.

I would from now on, change your routine,  if your Staffie is no trouble leave her be, but the two troublemakers, I  would set up a different routine for bedtime,  introduce crates or/and  isolate from each other at night times.

Its not the cause of the problems, they were fighting during the day not all the time but every couple of weeks or so and the cause was not always obvious so couldnt work out whom was starting it. The bedtime thing has only happened twice in the last week, they have slept on the bed together for over a year with no probs. I will try to put the staff and crestie in the spare room tonight. I know the crestie wont settle on his own, he hates being by himself but will probably be ok with my staff. If I shut him out he will scream all night and I mean scream.
I dont know weather to castrate the crestie and if that might improve things or if they will grow out of it.

The two younger boys are quite close in age. Could be the youngest starting to find his feet and being a bit pushy with hormones, could it be a ranking/dominance thing going on?

Is the oldest of the two castrated?

no neither of the two are castrated

They may well have been quite happy sleeping, living and playing together before but they are very close in age and the same sex and now they are getting a little older hormones are kicking in and they are displaying aggression between each other most likely because of this.

For me personally any behaviour like this would be stopped immediately by getting to the cause of the behaviour....obviously at night time this is sharing the bed.  So I would have them start a new routine where they do not come into contact at night.  The same goes for the daytime, watch them carefully and really take note of their body language - who is starting things and why...not always easy to see from the untrained eye though and can be confusing.  Remove the root cause that is starting the aggression.

They may well have been quite happy sleeping, living and playing together before but they are very close in age and the same sex and now they are getting a little older hormones are kicking in and they are displaying aggression between each other most likely because of this.

For me personally any behaviour like this would be stopped immediately by getting to the cause of the behaviour....obviously at night time this is sharing the bed.  So I would have them start a new routine where they do not come into contact at night.  The same goes for the daytime, watch them carefully and really take note of their body language - who is starting things and why...not always easy to see from the untrained eye though and can be confusing.  Remove the root cause that is starting the aggression.

Hi,

Unless I'm reading incorectly none of them are anywhere near in age, particulalry these two.  It may or may not be anything to do with hormones but from the info we have at the moment I can see how that is neccesarily the case.  It sounds like it may be down to a bit of resource guarding, in which case removing frrom the bed is not dealing with the route cause of the problem.  It would be a good idea to seperate them in the meantime while you worlk on things but that is just managemnt to stop problems from escalating (obviously needed) but not dealing with the problem.

When they have had scuffles before is it around anything in particular, ie. food, toys, attention from you, or even walking past whilke one is sat near you?  If the Crestie boy (which is common for them) is very attached to you then it could well be that he is resource guarding, you or the bed from the other lad at night.

> Unless I'm reading incorectly none of them are anywhere near in age, particulalry these two.

The two fighters are 2 years and 1 and 1/2 years, so only 6 months between them.

The two fighters are 2 years and 1 and 1/2 years, so only 6 months between them.

Thanks, I'd read that as 11 and half years, had a head injury recently and my brain stilll isn't working properly, tis my excuse anyway :-p.  I would still be thinking along the lines of resource guarding, I think it's important to work out why things are happening before going and doing things like castrating as if it is rsource guarding it is generally about insecurity and it doesn't sound from the limited info we've been given that he's the confident independant type and neutering at that age if things are about insecurity can actually cause things to get worse.

Sorry for any confusion, can see that this could have been misconstrued because of the way I typed it. Yes there is about 6 months between them. It could be more resource guarding as it usually happens around myself but cant always pinpoint the trigger. The shih tzu is a very nervous dog and is wary of strangers and other dogs and shows nervous aggression, I was advised when I took him to training classes not to get him castrated. The crestie appears outwardly confident and is more sure of himself than the shih tzu, he is very close to me as is the shih tzu. I have tried putting the cresteie out at night with the staff but he still wants to be in with me and complains loudly all night + going downstairs and weeing too. Last night I put the shih tzu out and he settled and slept all night in a room with the staff, so will be doing it that way round from now on. Do they grow out of this or will it carry on for the rest of their lives together.

If you can, I'd suggest getting a reputable behaviourist on board - ask for vet referral :)

Otherwise, I tend to agree that it may be due to resource guarding issues, this is how it comes across, although of course it's hard to tell via the net. This means that it can probably be sorted out, but it may need reputable professional help to do so.

Lindsay
x

Hiya,

I would suggest as Lindsay has that you really would be best getting the help of a professional that uses uses up to date modernpositive reward based training emthods.  It does sound like it is very possibly resource guarding and no that isn't som,ething they grow out of, in fact it tends to get owrse if they are allowed to practrise it, and like I said it ususally comes from insecurity about loosig something precious and valuable to them - if they are both very bonded to you their may some conflict there because they both value you highly.  I would recommend getting someone who is APBC regisiterd in to help and advise you.  In the meantime, be careful with them around resources, like feeding seperately, trying to keep them calm or seperat at times of over excitement, like you coming home after being out for a while or visitros coming in.

Also your fear aggresive one sounds llike his issue need some work to help him gain some confidence - while they aren't one in the same thig, one are of problem behaviour can affect another, especailly with something like that because if they find life quite stressful generally then often their adrenaline levels will be high a lot of the time and this can lead to them being more reactive over things that they other wise might be able to manage or cope with better.

You really do need to be careful when looking for help though as there are unfortuntely so many out there just now that profess to be positive trainers.behaviourists with up to date knowledge that often aren't and can do more harm than good.  Avoid andy one that wants to use punishment or tells you you need to be the boss or go down the 'pack leader route' as this really at best is unlikelyt to help and at worse could cause more damage.  Members of the APBC are about the most safe way of finding someone who is experienced and qualified and uses non punative mehtods :-)

I would also advise the behaviourist, but make sure they are reputable, we got given terrible advice when our boys fell out and they had to be kept apart for about 3 years until we moved house and it seemed to put them back on an equal footing again, and they were fine for the rest of Henry's life, though sadly that was only 3 months.

Thanks everyone for all the advice but things have calmed down again at night. The only different thing is that my staff has decided she prefers to sleep in the spare room and has taken over the bed in there but more room for me now. The two boys have been much better and am managing to stop them at the glaring stage before the fight starts. They are fine over toys etc and are fed separately but after they have eaten will wander about checking and eating from each others bowls with no prob. I think it is the shih tzu who is instigating the fights but his body language is very subtle and cresties growls are very loud so it seemed at first it was him. I think his loud growls are because he is worried not aggressive but he will still stand his corner.

I have five dogs, three mallies and two terriers and wouldn't let any of them sleep in my bedroom. How often do we see dogs being aggressive on tv because they are allowed to sleep on the bed? They are being dominant and are equal to you, the supposed pack leader, and are trying to enstate their position in the pack.
I'd let them sleep downstairs, firstly in seperate rooms, eventually together and think you'll find once you're out of the picture they won't want to fight over you.
Being woken up with dogs fighting on MY bed - NO WAY!!!

There is actually no evidence to suggest that dogs sleeping on bed or any such things causes them to be aggressive or think they are equal to the human or that they are pack leader, as these theories have been well and truly debunked and are very old fashioned.  I work in a behavioural and traing capacity and my dogs along with my cats (and me squeazed in the middle :-D) sleep on my bed without incident.

Where aggression can come into play on beds is when one or more are resource guarders, this has nothing to do with their place in the pack!  Absolutely it is not wise for dogs to be sleeping on bed if this is a cause of conflict but it has absolutely nothing to do with the being dominant or equal to the owner.  Thesese theories were based on flawed studies on wolf packs and s said have long since been disproved!

To the OP you are obviously a cause of conflict and dogs resource guard what is most important to them, if they are still getting to the glaring stage then the problem has not been dealt with and if you want them to have a harmonious relationship it really is something I would advise working on :-)

Thank you for the advice Karenclynes. I didnt think it was just the bed thing that was causing the prob because it started a good while ago and the bed thing only began recently. I am aware that it is probably me that is the problem but its very hard to pinpoint why because the fights are very few and far between. Sometimes several weeks will pass with no probs and then there will be 2 fights in one week and no apparent cause. They mainly get on ok and will play together most of the time with no probs also share toys too.
The couple of times it happened on the bed was in the middle of the night after all had gone to sleep and it never got to be a fight because the growling woke me up and I managed to hold them apart and then put one out before it started.

> How often do we see dogs being aggressive on tv because they are allowed to sleep on the bed? They are being dominant and are equal to you, the supposed pack leader, and are trying to enstate their position in the pack.
>

I thought that this totally out of date theory had long lost any credibility.

My dogs have the complete run of my house and have beds in the lounge and the bedroom, so where they sleep is their choice, although they always choose to sleep where I am.
The only house rule is that they are not allowed on my 3 piece suite OR my bed, and they accept this without question. This is not for any reasons of dominance and pack leader it's just because last year I bought a much saved up for leather suite and re the bed, I have found in the past that dogs gradually spread eagle out I am I left with a 6 inch wide gap on the side of the bed where I have to sleep in the shape of a plank, either that or numb legs with the dogs weight. So this house rule was created as the only way to get a nights sleep and has been accepted by them all.

I thought that this totally out of date theory had long lost any credibility.

Absolutely :-) Unfortunately this train of thought is not dying a death as quickly as it should be, largey because some 'trainers' still advocate it and then of course there are those wanderful TV programmes.

Kizzistaff - sorry I probably didn't sord that very well, I didn't mean to imply thastit was your fault by saying that you were the cause of conflict but rather it *sounds* like you are the thing they value most so therefore because of that there may be some guarding going on over you.  Really guarding is something that can get worse as hey get older if it's not worked through, plus dogs that are guarding aren't happy relaxed dogs they are tense and stressed - obviously it's not affecting them hugely at the moment in everday life but it still sounds like there are stresses and tensions between them now.  I would listen to them and try and work through this.  Really it would be an idea to get someone in to help assess the situation and see what is going on (not somone who believes in pack theory) and maybe guide you through, as sometime when you are emotionally involved it can be hard to pinpoin the triggers and work out how to go about changing things.

There is also a good book called 'Mine' by Jean Donaldson which covers resource guarding, I can't remember how much of it has to do with dog to dog resource guarding over people though.  I'm making a guess based on what you have said about it resource guarding but it really is difficult to say without being there to see it.  There are other things to consider as well, could one of them be in any discomfort and when movement happens in bed and may cause pain they are then lashing out at the other dog because of that.  Pain can cause problems with aggression and can be targetted to one particular dog, just like can be more irritable with one particular person if we are feeling unwell due to tolerance levels of that individual in the first place.

If you are insured then your insurance cover may well payout and cover the cost of a behaviourist from the APBC - should you wish to go down that route :-)

> I have found in the past that dogs gradually spread eagle out I am I left with a 6 inch wide gap on the side of the bed where I have to sleep in the shape of a plank,

:-)  :-)  :-)

How familiar that sounds!!

I took a photo of my daughter last night. She had 5 Papillons and one Cavalier on the bed with her. :) In the past there's been the odd Malinois sharing as well. :)

No problems with dogs sleeping on beds at all if they are not fighting - I agree but having taken a diploma in dog psychology I have to disagree with the pack leader theory being "debunked".
Dog psychology has not changed over the years, neither has human psychology, regardless of what new techniques trainers may have us believe.
The Dogs Mind - Bruce Fogle, is not a new fangled idea, it is a study of dogs on dogs, hence where dog psychology originates.

I find I am left with a 6 inch wide gap on the side of the bed where I have to sleep in the shape of a plank

Mine must be working up to this, so far I bet I have a whole 10 inches of bed left

I agree but having taken a diploma in dog psychology I have to disagree with the pack leader theory being "debunked".
Dog psychology has not changed over the years, neither has human psychology, regardless of what new techniques trainers may have us believe.
The Dogs Mind - Bruce Fogle, is not a new fangled idea, it is a study of dogs on dogs, hence where dog psychology originates.

You really must have received some very out of date training (or did you undergo it in the 50s?) as it is widely known and has been so well documented that the pack / dominance theory was seriously flawed. Bruce Fogle's books I would not give houseroom as the man hasn't got a clue about most issues.........not even basics like breeds. I think you'll find that one of the world's first dog psychologists, Anders Hallgren, who was using the title a long, long time before anyone in the UK did, he too has now realised that the theories were simply wrong. That's the most interesting part I feel, that even the dog trainers who USED to believe in the old theories have turned around and now realise they were wrong. Far from just newer trainers. Here are just a few links that actually back up what they say:

http://www.bristol.ac.uk/news/2009/6361.html Totally up to date study here
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php Plenty of scientific references here
http://www.teamworktraining.co.uk/Dominancedebate.html
http://dogpublic.com/articles/article.aspx?sid=14&pid=1640
http://www.4pawsu.com/dominancemyth.pdf
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm
http://www.mmilani.com/hollistic-animal-behavior2.html
http://www.ipdta.org/the-dominance-theory.html
http://www.drsophiayin.com/dominance.php
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

No problems with dogs sleeping on beds at all if they are not fighting - I agree but having taken a diploma in dog psychology I have to disagree with the pack leader theory being "debunked".
Dog psychology has not changed over the years, neither has human psychology, regardless of what new techniques trainers may have us believe.
The Dogs Mind - Bruce Fogle, is not a new fangled idea, it is a study of dogs on dogs, hence where dog psychology originates.

It depends very much when and where you studied your diploma as to it's up to date relevance, I have an accredited university degree in canine bahaviour and training, it's a degree of science and therefore is required to have scientific, up to date evidence to back things up.  Of which there is plenty to discredit the old theories :-)

The importance of things being up to date is that actually yes things do change very much as we are continually learning (because mistake were made based on flawed theories, which has been proven) and really if we ever get to the stage where we think we know it all and can't learn any more then we are a bit done for!  No your quite right The Dogs Mind is absolutley not a new fangled idea it is old, it's 20 years since he worte the book! Which is the point, that book is not up to date and would not be used for a science degree now because it's not based on fact  and not scientific.  Many of the professional have done a u turn on those theories any way because of the overwhelming evidence.  John Fisher for example in his Older books did a u turn just before he dieed and admitted his mistakes and said it was all a load or old rubbish basically :-D  Even many of the experts in wolf behaviour have had a change in thinking about wolf hierarchy such as Daved Meech.

Things do move on - if you have a pshchology diploma then you should know that there is much more to behaviour than just pronouncing it to be one thing on the info that has been given on here wihtou even asking any relevant questions towards the diagnosis you are giving - there is not enough information and we don't have enough details for you to be able to jump in and say this is because the dogs are trying to be above the person and think they are equal to her - can you tell me what you base this on please?

Hi all, have been to the vets this pm and while I was there mentioned the fighting probs and asked their view on castration. The vet gave me a long speech on making sure the right dog was castrated and should be the least dominant of the two so he would be made even less dominant and therefore the other would be less inclined to challenge him etc etc. She has given me the cards of two behaviourists and I want to know if anybody has heard of either and if their qualifications are any good. One is Dawn Turner BSc (Hons) MSc and she is a member of APBC, the other is Andrew Blake ADip CBM .

> The vet gave me a long speech on making sure the right dog was castrated and should be the least dominant of the two so he would be made even less dominant and therefore the other would be less inclined to challenge him etc etc. She has given me the cards of two behaviourists and I want to know if anybody has heard of either and if their qualifications are any good. One is Dawn Turner BSc (Hons) MSc and she is a member of APBC, the other is Andrew Blake ADip CBM .

I would go with the APBC one :)

Once you embrace the idea that dogs live in the moment, even the idea of dogs being 'dominant' to one another starts to become redundant as well. Being 'dominant' in that sense implies the dog has forward planning in thinking "ok I am bigger and stronger than that one so I will make sure it knows that." In reality it doesn't work like that at all, they react in 'The Moment' so if one dog feels frightened of another's size or strength it may react accordingly in defence - same as if one dog feels its resources or things that are important to it are being threatened by another (human or canine) it will also react.

I am sure you would react if someone stole your purse. That someone wasn't trying to be dominant (to get one over on you) - they probably wanted the money in it and you looked like a good way of getting it. If you then got angry and punched the person in the face trying to defend your purse, you're not being dominant, you're just trying to protect something that's important to you.

Dogs aren't plotting to take over the world, either with us or with other dogs. They just react in the moment to whatever they are faced with, which varies from dog to dog just as it does with people. You might not mind someone asking you to get off the sofa, but if that sofa was very important to you - you might.... it wouldn't be about asserting your superiority over the one who asked, it would depend on what the sofa meant to you.

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/if-not-dominance.php

The above article with scientific references helps to explain up to date understanding of how dogs behave socially, and explains that dominance is not in the picture :)

Lindsay
x

No problems with dogs sleeping on beds at all if they are not fighting - I agree but having taken a diploma in dog psychology I have to disagree with the pack leader theory being "debunked".
Dog psychology has not changed over the years, neither has human psychology, regardless of what new techniques trainers may have us believe.
The Dogs Mind - Bruce Fogle, is not a new fangled idea, it is a study of dogs on dogs, hence where dog psychology originates

I too disagree with this :)
It does depend on when you took your diploma, or who with, but if there was emphasis placed on dominance then to be honest, it appears you may have been short changed. At least there should have been acknowledgement that there are views and evidence to the contrary now :)

Also, I agree that knowledge and science does change. Having studied the origins of dominance I cannot think why we even thought it could possibly be so in the first place. Thankfully now we have a better understanding.

Lindsay (speaking as someone who, years ago, did follow pack theory to a certain extent a la John Fisher)

x