Hello all. I'm new so go easy on me!

I bought a springer pup about a year ago as I wanted a gun dog. 5 months ago I sent her away for training, (as I don't know much about it) and picked him up this monday. I sent him to a guy that was recommended by various people from my local spaniel club. The guy is apparently well respected and has had a number of trial champions and is a trial judge.

I've thought about this all week, then found this site so thought I'd ask your opinions. I'm also going to ask some from the spaniel club.

When I went to get him, the trainer gave me a demonstration, and all seemed ok, till the guy threw a dead pigeon for him to retrieve. He brought it back then dropped at the guys feet and started messing around with it. The trainer then promptly snatched it off the dog, and said that's the best I could expect, but he was alright with dummies. Anyway, the dog was pretty dirty, but as he'd been shooting the day before I let it pass. When I gave him (Buster) a good wash on tuesday, not only was he absolutely filthy, and what I thought were a few bits of mud on his coat were really bad mats that I had to cut out. But even worse, buster was absolutely covered in lice and scabs, together with a couple of bald bits were he'd obviously been scratching like mad. Not only that, but I took him down the farm to get him used to me and do a bit of hunting and retrieving with dummies. Hunting was ok but retrieving was rubbish. He'd stop half way back to me then just mess around with the dummy. The trainer said to give him a few weeks to get used to me, so that's what I'll do. But here's the thing, what should I do? I spoke to the guy at the end of each month to see how the training was going and he never said anything about the poor retrieving and messing around with game, which is kind of important with a shooting dog. The idea being that if at any point he was having problems with the dog that he didn't think he could resolve we could discuss it. I feel it's a bit much to wait till the end and then say 'Oh, by the way he's useless at retireving game and you have to jump in there to stop him plucking it for you'. I also feel it's a bit much to give back a dog covered in lice together with evidence that it isn't a recent infestation, and a very poor coat condition. I don't want to speak to him just yet, and will have a word with a few at the club first to see if this sort of thing is 'normal'.

Sorry it's real long, but I feel real bad about putting him through this as it can't have been very nice for him, but what do you guys, especially those that are involved in gun dogs, think I should do?

Thanks....Les

Welcome to the forum Les :-)

No this sort of thing is not normal in my experience. I think you have every right to be angry at the condition of your dog if nothing else. A bit of *dirt* is one thing but if he has returned with lice etc, I think I would be getting him to a vet and having him treated and then billing the trainer! In my opinion, if the dog has been returned to you with lice, then he has been neglected and that is very poor husbandry/kennel management.

Did you have a written contract/agreement as to what both parties expected from this training arrangement? Did your dog have a retrieving problem that was highlighted to the trainer before he took the dog on? Questions, questions :D

Training aside - no dog should be in that condition - I would be very concerned as to the establishment this "trainer" has. People have been charged for animal cruelty for less........!

Shirley

Hello all, and thank you for your comments.

To be honest I'm getting angrier by the day. I took him to the vet tuesday as soon as I saw the lice. The vet said they weren't that common, but I could tell he was quite surprised. Both ears were crawling, as well as the top of his head. He had numerous scabs, and quite a bare patch in his side just about where he could turn his head to bite. The underside of his ears were also red and the vet reckoned its where he's been shaking his head. He gave me frontline to treat him, and now the lice are dropping off like there's no tomorrow. He also gave him an anti-inflamatary injection to calm the iritation. His booster was also due, but the vet said leave it a week.

Unfortunately we had no written contract. I took him at his word and on recommendation. The kennels all looked fairly clean and tidy with clean woodchip on the floors. Not palatial, but ok. I didn't warn him of any problems before I went, as all I had really done with him was the real basics like sitting on the whistle, heal work, and really simple retrieves. I'd read some books and watched some videos and the general concensus seemed to be start like this and don't expect too much for at least the first 6/7 months, so I just worked at not starting any bad habits. I'm now starting to wonder if he was treated right in other respects. I realise that a good bol***ing and clips round the ear are probably par for the course, and I'm ok with that, but did he take it further?

Our spaniel club has got a training day on sunday, so I'm going to have a quiet word with some of the experienced guys and ask them if the training issues are likely to improve over the next couple of weeks, as the trainer said just stick to the basics for that long until he bonds with me again. He wanted me to call him after 3/4 weeks to discuss any issues that may arrise, but I'd rather not if I don't have to. I'll speak to my solicitor on monday, as I don't want to let the issues drag on for too long. If needs be I'll sue him straight away. Do you think I should go back to the vets and ask for a complete examination and report to see if there is any other evidence of neglect? As I get angrier I thought about telling the RSPCA, but I don't know if that will do any good. I guess I can't get any compensation for any neglect, as I haven't suffered any loss as a result, but feel I should be entitled to some recompense for the (possible) poor training. He has about 20 dogs there, so they must all be alive with lice, so there should be plenty of evidence. I just don't want to jump the gun and condem the guy and his livelihood for what may be a one-off, or something that was out of his control.

I feel absolutely gutted and distraught that I (through the trainer) have maybe subjected a lovely little dog to a totally miserable 5 months.

Did you take pictures and document it?? That's your best recourse if you plan to do something further. Also take him to the vet so they can do a report if needed.

Wendy

I'd be horrified if my dog came back in that state:( - you'd expect a bit mucky but lice, no-way - DaveN would be a good person to ask , he has posted today, he has just got his spaniel back from training today too. I definitely would not be happy with the situation, and would have expected to be informed if any part of the training was not progressing as expected in your updates along the way, I was under the impression that you only got your dog back from training once the dog was up to the standard agreed before the dog was taken on,( and if the dog was not up to it then you should be informed of that fact) and if it took longer than the agreed time to bring the dog on, then so be it. But to get the dog back in poor condition in my opinion is unacceptable the same as if you had boarded your dog in kennels whilst on holiday! (although in training for the field you would expect it to be a bit dirty) I wouldn't accept it as the norm. I would pop the dog to the vets for a check over and proof if necessary! Julie:)

I think it's disgusting giving you your dog back in that state. It doesn't sound as if he has done a very good job with the training either, he would have known there was a problem with the training before now. I think the problem with the training is that he has neglected to do it properly , just as he has neglected to care for the dog. Take him to a vet and get proof of his poor condition and refuse to pay. The man hasn't done what he agreed to. I'd be furious.
Jane

The physical condition of the dog has been dealt with by others on the board and I agree 100%.

As to retrieving, Springer’s are hunters and some are not quite so natural at retrieving. My keeper has litter sisters, one the retriever, the other the hunter. That said, both retrieve. It's just that given a choice, they have their preferences and their strong points.

I feel that a professional trainer should have sorted that problem and if the dog is, as he said, OK on dummies then to me the answer is a lock of experience on game. That makes it, to me anyway, not trained! After all, what happens if you send him for a runner? If he drops it then it will be three fields over by the time he looks. One question I would ask you, I'm assuming this puppy was from working lines? If from show lines then it could be an uphill struggle but if from good working stock then there really is no excuse. Usually if the dog does not show an aptitude for work then the trainer would bring it to your notice. After all, he would not want his reputation sullied!

I would definitely put a big question mark against this person's name!

Regards, John

Thanks John. He is from working lines, with a number of FTCH in the 3 generation pedrigree (mainly Rytex). I showed the guy the pedigree before we started, and he agreed to give him a month initially, which is apparently the norm. I then called at the end of each month for a progress report. He asked me to do this as in his words, if things weren't going right then I'd be wasting my money and he obviously wants to protect his reputation as well.

Maybe I've been a bit naive, but like you, I expect to pick up a dog that has been trained to do pretty much everything, and has been in most situations, but is still going to be lacking real experience. So as you say, I would think that it should have seen and retrieved most types of game, maybe even a runner. The other thing that seems a bit strange is he gets all funny when he sees other dogs, as he starts barking and leaping around on the lead if you approach other dogs. Again, I would have thought he would be used to being in close proximity to other dogs. He did say to call him in a few weeks to go through any issues after we had bonded again, as obviously I'm not an experienced handler, but I figured that was more to do with me confusing the dog. But I would have thought that throwing a seen dummy, saying 'fetch' and pointing in the direction of the dummy, then 3 pips on the whistle and calling him back as soon as he picked it up would work with anyone doing it, bond or no bond.

A dog will normally deliver a retrieved article, be it bird or dummy to the person who trained him because he is in effect giving his present to his leader. He may be a bit confused about delivering to anyone else in the initial stages so if he dropped at your feet the first time I would not be too surprised or upset. If he is not cleanly delivering to the trainer's hand then that is a very different matter. So many dogs I see at training drop, but in most cases the fault lays with the handler and is easy to spot. This should not apply to a professional handler, He should have the experience not to make the usual mistakes. If you did a retrieve with my Anna I have no doubt she would bring the bird back to me. This I can understand because I’m the one who works her but I have no doubt that if you took her (No, you cant have her! :) ) then once I was no longer around she would soon accept the change.

I imagine you told the trainer what you wanted the puppy for? A peg dog on a formal driven shoot, Rough Shooting companion, Beating dog, Picker up? The different disciplines would mean slight variations in training with the emphasis placed on different aspects. One thing I would have thought though was that he would have been reasonably steady in the company of other dogs. He is still young so I would not expect a focus to the exclusion of all else but I would at least expected a reasonable degree of controllability around other dogs.

It is not always easy to test a dog on all types of game. This is Anna's third season picking up and so far she has only had the chance of Pheasant, Partridge, Mallard, Canada Goose and Pigeon (plus one crow!) She's smelt Woodcock but has not had the chance to retrieve one. Most working gundog people are continually trying to find something different to test their dogs on. I figure Anna will be fully trained by the time she is around twelve years old!

Regards, John

Just in time to put her feet up & retire John! Clever girl :)
Christine, Spain.

She's not allowed to retire yet Christine, I get to do that first!!!!