I cant get my head around the way people move dogs on if they are not 'good enough'.

This probabaly should be in the showing board as it is show folk who seem to do this.

They are not necessarily breeders who are trying to improve the lines, just the dogs dont come up to scratch in the ring, so they give/sell away to others. Then get another......
Is it just me or am I missing something here  :(

Karen

Greed!!!

I still cant see what they get from it..........the fact they can spend more money.....or win the prizes, which as we know in cash terms are non- starters,  :(

Trophy hunters don't want a dog taking up room in their homes but not winning...so they move it out and bring on the next hopefull. I know breeders who win win win with a dog then at 5/6 years old move them out and make room for the next puppy hopefull!!! Not for me thank you my oldies have won the right to retire in peace at home.
Aileen

I like showing but have never sold a dog because it wasn't winning.  In fact, the fat spaniel lying at my feet right now decided she was too good to be judged at a very young age!  But I suppose that's why I don't have any champions?  I love my dogs and my hobby but not to the detriment of my character or my dogs life.  I have, however, re-homed a girl because she didn't get on with my other dogs and she is living the high life as an only dog.  I suppose I just like a hobby which involves my dog.  But why pick on showing?  What about the obedience nuts or agility or flyball competitors?  I've heard of ones there too.  I think the common donominator is the ruthless people who want to win regardless of the cost. 

Could it be that they don't look at dogs the same way that we do? Horses are moved on when they are outgrown, or don't come up scratch, or don't suit, and no-one thinks twice. Ok, big difference in costs involved, and horses don't live in the house ;-) but maybe these people think the same way? They are just a commodity to them. I have a bitch here at the moment that I would move on if the right home came up, but until then she is more than welcome to live out her days here (I'm not looking very hard for a new home :- ) I just feel that she would possibly benefit from being an only dog, rather than one of a pack.

Think it depends on how you see your dogs, some see them as part of the family and other as stock, both to my mind acceptable, the first would not part with a member of their family the second expect to only keep those that fit in with their plans for breeding and showing. Providing any re-homing is done with care then this is probably to the advantage of the animal, the attitude that does worry me is when they are seen as children and not allowed to be dogs at all.

I think each case needs to be assessed on it's own merit.  There are always exceptions that on paper may look hard faced, but done in the dogs own interests.  LindyLou points out just one example

The flip side is that owners who are looking for a nicely bred dog from health tested parents but who cannot take on a puppy for some reason can really benefit from young dogs that breeders have decided not to keep.  A dog in these circumstances will have been regularly handled, well looked after, and probably pretty well trained, and well socialised. 

Repeat offenders would make me feel uncomfortable (I imagine it's these you are speaking of) but every so often a breeder may well find that a dog hasn't worked out for a multitude of reasons; better that they rehome to a good owner than hanging on from a sense of misplaced loyalty whilst overlooking the dogs needs.

It is more rare these days because people can't afford to run a large show/breeding kennel any more but there are still a few. They have a number of dogs kennelled, well cared for and exercised, handled, socialised and shown. When mature some will be kept for breeding the rest will be re-homed so that the breeder can keep the best to continue the breeding line. Much like a farmer who will keep his best stock for breeding and showing and the rest are sold on.

When you think about it from the dog's point of view, it will be going from a life where it is kennelled except when being exercised or groomed with perhaps a few hours in the home to socialise to a pet home where he will be part of a family.

We all tell people to buy from a good breeder and most of these are private show people who wish to try to further the standard of the breed they are in but a few can afford to take this to a different level and have kennels and kennel maids. Both if they are doing the job with care are furthering the breed and in general the care of dogs. However no one would wish to keep a dog kennelled when their working life is finished or it they prove unsuitable for breeding.

There is nothing wrong in keeping your dogs in kennels but if I were a dog I would prefer to have my toes by a fire and constant company once my working life was finnished.

I have to admit I only know of show people who do this, not agility or obedience.
I suppose Nova is correct in that 'stock' is how these people see there dogs rather than family members..............

Karen :)

It would be the show people they are the ones who are trying to breed for a better future for their chosen breed, they may have been working for years to try and improve the conformation of their stock and there is a limit to how many dogs any of us can keep even those who have kennels.

It may surprise you to know that as well as having people on a list for puppies many will have people waiting for an older dog that is finished in the show ring or their breeding lives. Unlike some poor dogs who will find there way to a rescue pound or worse.

I suppose I am naive, I dont always see what is staring me in the face.
It seems like the dogs are being cheated somehow.

Karen  :(

Like Nova says some people want an older dog as they dont want to 'hassle' of puppy/youngster training

Yes, but surely that morally it would be better to go to rescues etc...for genuine needs dogs :(
If you breed and undertake responsibility for your pups....you then have them back at home with you, not just pass them around when you no longer have any interest.

Karen

> If you breed and undertake responsibility for your pups....you then have them back at home with you, not just pass them around when you no longer have any interest.
>

Fully understand that...we had a dog back when his owner was killed, we do not keep  males but he is still here & will remain so!!!

>If you breed and undertake responsibility for your pups....you then have them back at home with you, not just pass them around when you no longer have any interest.

Or you find them a new home without them having to be a burden on either a general rescue or breed rescue. As long as the dog has a good, fulfilling home, does it matter whether it's with the breeder or not?

Completley agree, I just dont like that people take on a dog as stock and pretend (as they do ) that it is a family or pack member.
If I had bred I would want my pups to go to forever homes.

Karen

Forever homes sometimes end up with problems and the dog may go back to the breeder to be rehomed. I would far rather have someone bring one back to me than it end up in rescue, or just be abandonded in the Scottish Glens to fend for itself, as one I bred had to do until caught and rehomed. This is why mine are now microchipped prior to leaving for their forever homes :-( but that is another topic for another day ;-) At least by getting one from the breeder you get to see family members so can make an informed opinion as to how the dog should behave. You will also have the experience of the breeders years in the breed to fall back on to for help when needed. Rescue centres quite often haven't got a clue as to the breed, so how can they tell you how it is supposed to react to things? Or how to help?

I have never had any problems homing an older dog to the right home.  I always used to have a waiting list for older dogs as well as puppies and the new owners were always happy to take on a well trained and socialised youngster who hadn't made the grade.  Although it might be difficult for me to see them walking away, I was happy to know that they would have individual attention and a life full of individual love and attention.

I would always recommend that anyone wanting an older dog look for one from a breeder rather than take on an unknown quantity from a rescue kennel.  Those who take on a rescue dog with no problems are very lucky.

I could never do it, I have only had 3 dogs at one time so far, was planning to go up to 4 but sadly 1 died before the puppy I hoped to add was born, so I have never had trouble giving them individual attention. Even my Yankee who was always last in the class at open shows and hardly ever goes to any shows these days is part of the family and I would never part with him.

It really does come down to the way you think about dogs, to me they are stock that live in my home and give me great pleasure, they are old friends and would never be re-homed but if they were part of my ambition to breed a better Elkhound I would soon run out of space and money so unless they earned a place in my home they would be moved on. Even our children are expected to be re-homed once their place in our home serves no purpose, we have finished giving them all we can and off they go to make a life without us, still in our thoughts but not our homes.

Most of a litter will be moved on to a new home, one of two may be kept back if it appears they will help improve the line but if the promises is not fulfilled then they have to be moved on to make room for a dog that will. We do only live one life of a relative short length - if our ambition is to leave our breed in a better state than we found it then we have to be business like and beyond keeping one of two special pets the rest must make room or any project we may have will grind to a halt.

> This probabaly should be in the showing board as it is show folk who seem to do this.
>

You'd be surprised, pretty common in Obedience and Gundog circles, more so than anyone in the showing world that I know.

Running on a puppy is a little different as the intention was always to just wait a bit longer to see if pup turns out good enough.

I would say the majority these days see their dogs as family first.

From the dogs point of view as long as ti is homed with care it is probably better off in a new home loved to bits if the original owner has so little attachment to it.

There are just as many pet owners who 'get rid' of dog after dog.

>You'd be surprised, pretty common in Obedience and Gundog circles, more so than anyone in the showing world that I know.

Gracious yes, working gundogs can change hands many times.

Would think that particularly gundogs would be re-homed it they do not make the grade, you would have to. Sadder than those who re-home are those who don't and finish up with more than they can care for, only to be raided by the RSPCA carted off the court and chucked out of the KC for the crime of caring too much and keeping more than they can care for.

As Brainless says large show kennels are rare these days so re-homing is also rare although it does happen, often because someone you know asks if you have an adult dog that they could have, I have taken in a 7 year old myself, it suited me and the original owner and the dog, she ruled my roost till she died at 14 years. Our Nina could never be thought of as a cast off and she thought being with younger dogs an answer to her dreams, so very much better that sharing her time in the house with many others now she had free run as and when it suited her and yes life really suited her lived at full tit right to the last.

I suppose it all boils down to.... is any one on here the only suitable home for their dog?

I know several breeders who pride themselves in never parting with a dog and keep them for their whole life.

They say it with such pomposity... "I never part with my dogs".... no they keep a pack ( and not always in the best conditions) and not every dog enjoys living in a pack!

I do tend to keep mine and have a boxer who never enjoyed showing but stayed, but if a multi house household doesn't suit my dogs I would find them the right home..... it doesn't have to be mine.

I love my dogs so much I couldn't for a moment imagine  them living with anyone else but me and my family for the whole of thier lives.

i have a house hold full of show failures Its life. :)they are my family and they stay here. Out of our 17 dogs, 4 are champions, four have single ccs and the rest are either failures or purely pets. Sadly some people see their dgs as showdogs only,and not as family, like we do ours :(

I don't think this is entirely fair. I breed and show and the day will come when I have to decide if I can breed a litter or if I have enough dogs for the size of house I am in. Often a breeder will keep a puppy hoping it will achieve its promise and then it does not. This puppy may leave home later than his littermates to his forever home but will be loved as much as those who left earlier allowing the breeder to perhaps try again to improve on what they have produced before. This msut be very hard to do and not something I look forward to but accept may come if I am true to my resons for breeding. I can however see the other side from the view of someone who doesn't have this decison to make as this was my way before.

>Sadder than those who re-home are those who don't and finish up with more than they can care for, only to be raided by the RSPCA carted off the court and chucked out of the KC for the crime of caring too much and keeping more than they can care for.

Being over-dogged is a very great danger.

Good on you Sam....I would like to cyber shake your hand :)

Karen

An interesting and ressuring post. Ours came from someone, who if they don't make the grade get rehomed to make way for the next run on. I can understand that this happens occasionaly but not two/three times a year. Is it greed or the overwhelming desire for a champion? Couldn't breed, even if I had the knowledge as I wouldn't be able to part with them. Two is enough, until we win the lottery.

Sam that sounds fine if you have the room and the energy to look after 17 dogs and large ones at that. Most people would not have the room to house that many or to give each and every one the care they needed. Most people with 17 dogs would have to kennel at least some if not all.

Because she can she does....if you cant you shouildn't.

Just wonder how many have the room and the staff these days, of course, if you can you would. The point is are the people who can't to give up breeding and showing or training gundogs because they have to restrict their numbers particularly if they have people waiting for an adult dog. IMO it would be a sad day if those who have the talent and knowledge to breed good specimens were unable to do so because they could not afford to run a large kennel. It would be unfortunate because that would leave breeding to the puppy farms and those who would breed just the one litter.

Hi poloaussie, I have a very much loved 'lodger' who has come to me from a very highly respected breeder. He was 10 months when I got him--his breeder is limited to the number of dogs she can keep and with six bitches an adult dog would have needed regular kennelling. I can't imagine how hard it must be to let a dog go on to another home after he's been part of the tribe. All I can say is that I am so grateful to her for letting us have her dog.

He did very well in the ring up to puppy dog but needed time to go through his lanky teenage phase. At 27 months he looks great, and his breeder may well show him again now that he's come out the other side. He gets much more free running, swimming and fun with my own dogs, and I hope one day we will be able to have him forever. In the meantime I can't see how he has been cheated. I think his breeder is the one who has thought long and hard about his best interests and it was one of the best moments of my life when she told me he looked great and to just keep on what we were doing :) . But when I saw him flying around the ring with her it brought a lump to my throat--he knew exactly what he had to do, and if I ever have a fraction of her skill I will be one very happy exhibitor.

I still dont get it!
I have my opinion and it wont change, I understand good breeders breed a litter when they themselves want another puppy.............
Then sell the rest ,but always remain responsible for the litter.

Yes I realise things breakdown and that is sad and to be addressed as it occurs.

But people taking on puppies then palming them off when they dont make the grade is morally wrong to me at least.

Karen

I still dont get it!

Karen, neither do I. The occassional litter when another puppy is wanted and enough homes organised for those you can't keep but to keep breeding for that perfect dog (how many times do you have to keep breeding to find it) and having to advertise homes for the rest. I don't understand either.

I don't think this applies to only those in 'show' circles.

An ex-freind of mine used to have GSDs as 'her' breed and was into competitive obedience and working trials competitively.

She had a beautiful bitch that she gave away at 18 months old because she hadn't bonded with her and couldn't get the best out of her.  For her it was all about winning Ribbons.  The lady who took the dog on did however create a bond and the dog went on to be not only a really nice pet but also do extremely well at obedience.

Strangely enough, I always thought the onus  was on us humans, who are supposed to have more intelligence, to work at creating the necessary bond but to my friend the dog was a 'tool', only useful if she performed well in the obedience ring.  I was quite shocked at this cold-hearted approach.  Dogs don't always choose us, we choose to take them in and therefore assume responsibility for them, to abandon them so lightly, is to me, totally UNacceptable.

> But people taking on puppies then palming them off when they dont make the grade is morally wrong to me at least.

I think this is different to the breeder who runs a pup on hoping it will be a good specimen of the breed only to decide after watching longer that it doesn't.

It's not an easy decision to take and whilst the dogs we have live as pets they are not bred as pets if that makes sense. We breed to try to get as close to the breed standard as possible and keep the dog/bitch we think best achieves that. It lives the life of a pet but we have higher aspirations for it not only in the ring but with a view to breeding on and perhaps reducing a problem in the breed or furthering improvements in the breed. If when growing the pup develops and has a weak front or patella problems, poor bite etc we may then and should then decide that we should not breed on from this and replicate the problem, so comes the hard decison. Keep as a pet? Have I room? Where would it go on show days? Will it be happier as a pack dog or does its temperament suit a one to one pet household? and a million other questions.

It's hard to see if you are not involved because "making the grade" shouldn't be measured by prizes but by what the dog can contribute to future generations and if this is faults IMO it should not be bred from and so a neutered pet home is the ideal solution and can bring years of joy to a family who don't mind if her teeth are a bit funny or she skips when she runs- Often they like these quirks but breeding generation of dogs like this would not be a good thing.

Anyway it's good that we don't always agree- prompts thoughts and discussions

> to abandon them so lightly, is to me, totally UNacceptable.

I wouldn't call finding a loving, caring new owner who obviously has a better bonding that the original owner 'abandoning them'.

This is probably more common in working dogs.  A huge amount of effort goes into training a working dog (at least at competition level, rather than a bit of picking up) and it is often not possible to keep those that aren't going to make the grade.  That doesn't mean they are abandoned - chances are they are rehomed into loving pet homes, or even general working homes.

I think the feelings of abandonment are human ones not canine ones.  Dogs are hugely adaptable and having helped in rescue for a while, dogs invariably settle into their new homes and form loving bonds with their new owners.  Dogs live in the now, they don't hanker after lost loves like we humans do ;)

Now if people were putting their dogs into rescue kennels, as so many 'pet' owners do, rather than find them their niche in a well chosen loving home, then of course it would be highly unethical.

Personally and so far I have kept all my dogs for life, but I have now reached 5, and to take my breeding further (if all goes to plan) this will go up to 6 by Spring.

3 of my five by September will be veterans (in breeding terms and physically non breeding/retired).

How many people who can otherwise add so much to maintaining and taking a breed forward can keep 6 plus dogs (and make provision for those that may require re-homing at any point in their lives).

In a long lived healthy breed just keeping a single line of descent will have you with that many if you keep one every 2 - 3 years as the generations go on.

How many older breeders (breeding takes time and this means many are retired) would have to stop by 60 if they wanted to ensure they were around for the lifetime of their youngest dog (that would remove perhaps half of all non commercial breeders).

> It's hard to see if you are not involved because "making the grade" shouldn't be measured by prizes but by what the dog can contribute to future generations

Having joined this forum I do realise members desire to reduce problems and ensure improvements to a breed, when the dog is part of his owners family and loved nurtured as such. It's just that alot of unwanted puppies are breed in pursuit of the perfect dog (when perfection is so short lived and very personal) and when they find it, it does not follow that it's litter mates or offspring will have the same characteristics.

> It's just that alot of unwanted puppies are breed in pursuit of the perfect dog

Where are these puppies bred by ethical breeders with long waiting lists unwanted.  Anyone with half a brain would prefer a well bred, socialised typical puppy from health tested parents, than a poorly bred one, of which sadly there are vast numbers churned out.

Brainless.

I agree with you. I realise my experience is limited but not all breeders have your ethics and love for a breed for the breeds long term health and welfare.

> It's just that alot of unwanted puppies are breed in pursuit of the perfect dog (when perfection is so short lived and very personal) and when they find it, it does not follow that it's litter mates or offspring will have the same characteristics.

You make a good point Lacy re littermates not having the same attributes and this is why responsible breeders sell these as neutered pets and breed on only from those as close to perfect as possible. If perfect is viewed in terms of health- good hips, elbows, eyes etc this is what we all want meaning a higher chance of future generations being the same. Re surplus puppies- hopefully those good healthy ones with strong attributes may be sold to other breeders to improve/further their lines and those with conformation issues placed in pet homes where a wee pal is what's needed and will be loved regardless. We would all love if our bitches had fewer pups but all of great quality. Most of us breed to get the one- Last time I got one this ime I go three and am confident the other two will go to great homes once I can fully asses where they best fit.

> not all breeders have your ethics and love for a breed for the breeds long term health and welfare. <

True but most on here do...

> Where are these puppies bred by ethical breeders with long waiting lists unwanted.&nbsp; Anyone with half a brain would prefer a well bred, socialised typical puppy from health tested parents, than a poorly bred one, of which sadly there are vast numbers churned out

Why do you have to introduce such terms as ANYONE WITH HALF A BRAIN? Are all breed champion dogs health tested, yours might be.

I didn't mention champions, but that anyone with any sense would want a well bred healthy pup over a poorly bred one, and anyone breeding with such aims is not going to have unwanted puppies, quite the reverse.

The poor breeders, puppy farmers, ignorant pet owners (sometimes called Back Yard Breeders) who think fluffy will be fulfilled by having babies, pander/prey on those puppy buyers who go into owning a dog too casually or on impulse, or who are ignorant (by that I mean lacking knowledge), or those who feel sorry for the poor mite.

We need the general public to be educated in the fact that it does matter how well bred their puppy is, even though it is only going to be a pet, which is the most important canine job of all.

> Are all breed champion dogs health tested, yours might be.

All those bred from in my breed are, as it is part of the breed clubs code of ethics, and increasingly this is the case with more an more breeds, especially those numerically smaller breeds with a core of dedicated breeders that mostly belong to breed clubs.

In the popular/more commercially exploited breeds this is more rarely the case, though I imagine those producing champions are likely to have been health testing the parents.

Brainless, My mistake for using the term champion and I do agree with you. Though I still think that there are too many poorly bred pups in the pursuit of a well bred one and for many without your depth of knowledge, naively (prefer that term, to half a brain) thinking that going to someone at the top within a breed does not ensure a healthy pup. Again I can only say that from my experience there are breeders who appear disinterest in concerns within their dogs as long as the occassional pup/dog gets them placed at well known shows.

But I digress. Wouldn't breed for lack of knowledge and wouldn't be able to part with the pups.