my dobbie has been diagnosed  with ocd..shes on selgian tabs..i got her from a breeder on here,and there was 2 other pups,i cant find the breeder as she is no longer on here,i would love to know if the other pups are ok,as it can be in the genes..mite have to say goodbye to her,as i cant cope much longer...anyone got any advice...thanx

You should have had the breeder's address on some of the dogs records.

If not then you could write a letter and ask the Kennel club to pass it on to them.

I have sent you a pm

i have her address and details,but she seems to have disapeared off the kennel club and champ dog web sites...its weird,makes me think the other pups got it aswell,im going to ask kennel club to check the pedigree,they mite be to closelly bred,in which case she should never have bred them..as this illness can be genetic..im out of my depth with this,had a dobie years ago,and she was a great dog..thanx for replying to me...margaret

Looking at her pedigree will tell you if she is closely bred.  Then that would only be an issue if there were dogs with that condition or producing that condition that were closely related, so sharing the less good genes and making their occurrence int eh offspring more likely.

As for appearing on web listings, well if they don't have a litter at the moment they will not be listed, unless it is in a breeders listing.

Perhaps they have given up breeding.

Have you tried Googling their kennel name, you will get lots of things come up, show results for dogs with the same family name etc.

Unfortunately the genetics of skeletal issues are complex, not like some of the simple things where one gene is responsible.

It is quite possible to have healthy parents and generations before and have a puppy with issues.  Certainly testing for OCD is not common in the breed, as I don't believe it is a common issue in the breed.

The parents health tests will be on your dogs registration documents.  You say you have the breeders address, have they not replied to letters or phone calls.  Have you tried sending a letter recorded delivery, at least that way you would know if they had moved.

thanx for the good advice,i shall google and see what comes up..she does also breed rotties and newfoundlands too...the tablets dont seem to be helping yet,but ive read alot of bad reviews on them,its heart breaking watching her,and we feel very helpless..will let you know if i find anything out..margaret

Margaret i don't know a huge amount about Dobe's and know a little about OCD from friends with dogs have have been diagnosed with it. My friends dogs had operations which fixed the problem and they've gone on to live very good lives with no real issues at this stage. What has your vet said about an operation? Is it an option?

Which joint is effected by the OCD, in most cases it is treated by an operation but I may be out of date and there may now be a tendency to try other ways first but I do know that some joints respond better than others.

What is OCD if people don't mind me asking - I was under the impression it meant obsessive compulsive disorder - but quite clearly not *embarrassed*

See this link: http://www.provet.co.uk/petfacts/healthtips/osteochondrosis.htm

hi..ocd is obsessive compulsive disorder,where a person or dog has the tendancy to repeat over and over again things they do...in my dobies case,she runs around in a circle,for hours on end,every time she is out in the garden..to the point that she has lost so much weight,even tho she eats a massive amount every day..its like she goes in a trance,and wont even come when she is called,shes in a different world...theres a circle where the grass used to be..she has had blood tests and there isnt anything wrong with her..the vet has seen a video of her behaviour and has put her on mind altering drugs,to try calm her down..they arent working so far..it can be genetic,or something can trigger it off.

OCD is osteochondritis dissecans, more commonly known as ED (Elbow Dysplacia)... It is ajoint disorder in which cracks form in the articular cartilage and the underlying subchondral bone

Has she had a full panel thyroid test? Although not common in dogs I'm wondering if she could be hyperthyroid (hypo is much more common).

Is she of European breeding or UK lines? How old is she and when did the symptoms start?

Sorry if you've already answered these Q's, but I think most of us were thinking of OCD as in joint disorders!

Thanks margaret, thats what I thought, but as some are referring to which joint is it I was getting confused.

I do feel for you, our rottie boy has some small obsessions with shadows and light reflections, we have been working to distract him since rehoming him and it is improving, I presume his was down to boredom in the kennels.

It sounds as if your poor girl has got it full on :( I hope something can be done to help, it must be quite distressing to watch.

Don't be embarrassed - the most common understanding of the initials OCD IS Obssessive Compulsive Disorder and it is a Behaviourial thing not a skeletal one.

I apologies, I am used to OCD being the abbreviation for the detachment of a piece of cartilage in a joint an abbreviation of Osteochondritis Dissicans and have never heard of it being applied to a behavioural problem in the dog but then again it did not exist in children when I was a child either.

> hi..ocd is obsessive compulsive disorder

Oh dear we are totally at Cross purposes.  In Canine circles OCD refers to a set of skeletal disorders, also collectively known as Elbow Dysplasia.

Here we were thinking your dog had trouble with the elbow and shoulder joints,a nd you meant the dog is hyper :)

Dobermans are a working breed and if their minds and bodies are not stimulated enough they can develop behavioural issues.

It is similar to the pacing and repetitive behaviours seen in circus and zoo animals that are confined too much.

What is the dogs routine, what exercise and training do you do etc.

A referral to a reputable behaviourist through your vet would be my advice.

thats what the vet called her condition, have read up on it tho...and could be a long life condition...and she did refer to zoo animals having the same sort of disorder..my dobie gets a good hour and a half run most days round the farmland,where i live...she is tho,a very attention seeking dog,much diffrent to the dobie i had years ago..my vet has suggested behaviour therapy,at a later date..the practice behavior consultant has diagnosed her after seeing videos of her weird behaviour.

thank you...most people think its a skeletal ailment...

hi..yeah,skye got it bad am afraid..started off biting her paws and chewing up her bed and eating it..shes got a dodgy digestive system now,..one thing after another...moved home to give her a bigger garden,but its went from bad to worse..tablets arent helping either..heartbreaking watching her,just going round and round..shes in a wee world of her own..i feel helpless,tried evrything to help her,i had a dobie years ago,so i know alot about them...she doesnt even want to play anymore,shes in a trance,just keeps going round and round,i end up bringing her in,as shes panting like mad,takes half an hour for her to breath normally...never seen anything like it b4..

h..she has a great european pedigree,is 14 months old,her syptoms started about 9months ago,although they were mild,and have got worse as time has gone on..it can be genetic too...

Obssesive compulsive disorders have been around in people for decades.  Mostly it displays as an obssession to count, sort, arrange or otherwise 'organise' things or it has to do with cleanliness.  People cannot live their lives fully because they have the obssession to wash their hands before and after they touch ANYthing.

With dogs they chase their tails, lick until they bleed, chase 'shadows' etc.

Quite often it has been traced back to dogs who have been prohibited by punishment from displaying normal canine behaviours and the stress caused by such prohibition leaves them with other far serious behaviours.  Though this is not always the reason for the OCD.

It has been found through research that children who had serious speech impediments - stuttering/stammering etc were originally left-handed children who were forced at school to write and carry out other essential tasks with their right hand.  This prohibition of their 'natural' behaviour resulted in the stuttering.

Do you know what sparked it off or does your vet think it is a genetic disorder?

How long has she been like this?  Has your vet referred you to a behaviourist?  Sometimes, if it is not genetic, a behaviourist may be able to help.

OCD is a canine skeletal disease... CCD is Canine Compulsive Disorder,

when you said OCD, we all automatically assume Osteo skeletal..

In all I have rwead it is referred to as OCD in dogs not CCD.

See here for just one source I found in seconds by putting OCD in dogs on google

http://dogs.about.com/cs/disableddogs/a/ocd.htm

  
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PrintSymptoms of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder in Dogs
Introduction
Canine companions are like us in so many ways, but unfortunately that is not always a good thing. Like people, dogs have the potential to suffer from a number of mental or emotional disorders, and obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD) is one of them. Dogs and people who suffer from this disorder display eerily similar symptoms; in severe cases, these symptoms can contribute to physical health problems and adversely affect quality of life.

Obsessive compulsive disorder is a condition where an animal engages in activities that are normal for its species, but engages in them in an abnormally repetitive and constant manner - sometimes to the point of causing actual physical damage to the animal. Many dogs that suffer from this disease previously have been exposed to extremely stressful environments, or the clinical signs worsen in stressful or anxiety-producing situations. It is suspected that this disorder might have a genetic component as well.

Symptoms of OCD in Dogs
The constant, repetitive motions that OCD dogs engage in are otherwise normal activities; the disorder is present when the dog engages in these activities ritualistically and unusually often, beyond any amount appropriate for normal daily function. Some of the more common OCD activities in dogs include barking, digging, scratching, pacing, tail chasing, flank sucking (often in Doberman Pinschers), licking and chewing on paws or nails.

Every dog engages in these behaviors at some time normally, but dogs with OCD repeat them over and over and over again. In many cases, the behaviors are annoying but not really harmful. However, in some cases OCD dogs can cause physical injury to themselves if their repetitive behaviors are not brought under control. Constant licking and chewing on the paws, tail or other parts of the body can cause open sores and wounds, which can deteriorate into serious bacterial infections. In many cases, no matter how bad the sores become the dog will continue to lick and chew at them, despite the pain.

Dogs with OCD can display other behavioral problems as well. They may startle easily, have problems relating to people and other animals in ordinarily normal social situations, or they may experience severe separation anxiety when away from their owners.

If your dog is displaying unusual repetitive behavior that might be associated with OCD, schedule an appointment with your veterinarian as soon as possible. Treatments with medication and/or behavioral training programs are available to help calm the symptoms of OCD in our companion dogs.

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Related Topics
Canine OCD: An Overview
Diagnosing Obsessive Compulsive Disorder in Dogs
Treating Obsessive Compulsive Disorder in Dogs


Source: PetWave

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I think we are getting all tied up with the wording on this, and we should not be.. but I did find that a genetic marker for CCD has been found for Dobermans', The gene in question is called CDH2. and assume that your vet would be able to send a blood sample for testing.  whatever the diagnosis, I do hope that you are able to work with your dog to have a better life.. I have lived with a Hyperkenisis dog for 4.5years.. much worse than CCD, because their is a dangerous element involved.. but it worked :-)

Petwave is not the ideal source.. but going directly to the research institue is.. and I found this

All medical research use the term CCD not OCD..

But there is a common thread. "They are all behaviors that are normal," said Elinor Karlsson, a postdoctoral researcher at the Broad Institute, "but they are being done way too much," and often to dogs' detriment. Moreover, such compulsive behaviors -- known as canine compulsive disorder (CCD) -- show some remarkable similarities to a human behavioral disorder called obsessive-compulsive disorder. So, a deeper understanding of the genetic basis of the disorder in dogs could lead to a clearer picture of the condition in both species.

Now, Lindblad-Toh, Karlsson and their colleagues, including Nicholas Dodman at Tufts University and Edward Ginns at the University of Massachusetts Medical School, have taken a first step toward that goal, identifying a gene associated with CCD. The work was published online December 22 in the journal Molecular Psychiatry.

The researchers explored the genetic basis of CCD by focusing on the Doberman pincher breed. The manifestations of CCD, including flank sucking, are not only common in the breed, but they are also easily distinguishable: dogs either do it or they don't. That facilitated the researchers' task of identifying affected dogs, making it possible to collect a sufficient number of DNA samples for study.

Hi margaret

I have seen and replied to your PM and will get back to you when I can wade through all my research on this subject.

In the meantime I have looked out my Feline and Canine Behavioural Medicine book by Sarah Heath.

She particularly refers to Acral Lick Dermatitis and Flank Sucking as OCDs in Dobermans (and other breeds).

I don't know what your vet has prescribed but the author here refers to using Sertraline for these behaviours but also states that it really needs  psychopharmacology intervention as stress and the environment can have a massive bearing on this condition.

Margaret

have just looked up compulsive behaviours in my books on applied behaviour and find that several research/studies have been done recently on this subject and they suggest, along with Sertraline, some alternative drugs - Clomipramine and Fluoxetine especially where licking and chewing are the involved complusive behaviours. 

So, if the drug your vet has prescribed doesn't seem to be helping you could always go back and ask about the others.  All the drugs these researchers/authors mention come under the umbrella of SSRIs or Selective Serotonin-reup-take Inhibitors.

All the research indicates that drugs can only improve but not cure the condition and behaviour therapy must run alongside any drug regime so I would ask your vet if he/she can recommend someone in your area.

I will come back to you again if I find any further suggestions.

Ah Bless - I can't offer any practical advice, just T and sympathy! Our friend had a Dobe, years ago who did this and also squeaked non-stop and so I know exactly how helpless you feel. I hope you find the help and support you need soon.

They are also refered to as stereotopies. My lecturer has a real hang up about it as she said in "ocd" the person repeats things because they think if they don't something terrible will happen. In dogs it is not clear that this is the case as they do not appear to think of thinks like this and live in the here and now, its usually is because it feels good (increase in serotonin?)  and reduces stress levels.

thanx moondaisy...things are getting worse,shes digging holes in the garden,well,craters really...this medication isnt helping at all..barking constantly now at everything that moves or makes a sound...driving the neighbours bonkers...my kids think i should consider doberman rescue,to re home her,to somewhere she might be happier,but im not sure,shes a big pet...what do you think.

Don't think re-homing is an option TBH - she is a sick dog - can you return to the vet and ask them to try a different medication.

will be going back to vet soon,she said to give the selgian tabs time to work,but i think shes getting worse...they said there was no side effects,but ive been reading up on the tablets and dog owners havent got a good word to say about them...im at the end of my tether,its a wee shame for my dobie...

>ive been reading up on the tablets and dog owners havent got a good word to say about them...

I only know one person whose dog is on Selgian, and he says it's made a remarkable improvement to his dog's behaviour, and is dreading having to take him off them (can't stay on them longterm).

hi..was ur friends dog on them long b4 he noticed a difference...skye been on these 3wks now...the vet said she expects her to chill out a bit...but i havent noticed any change..

I think it took about 3 months for him to notice a difference (his dog was abandoned, and was very aggressive), and he's been on it for over a year now, and hasn't bitten a person or other dog for months (touching wood).

diffrent type of behaviour tho...hope it works for skye too...maybe she will sit down now and then..will keep up with the tablets and see how she goes...

Hi,

Selgian can be very effective and is one of the drugs with less side effects for behavioural problems.  It also has quite a high rate of success but they are generally muych more effective if used along side behavioural therapy.  If you are just giving her the tablets and not doing anything to change the behaviour then the difference is likely to be limited.

You would also be expecting it to take a goo bit longer than 3 weeks to really notice a difference but like I say really is best along side behaviour modification programme.  Sorry if I've missed it but have you had a full set of bloods done on her?  When you say that this started around 9 months was she a normal happy puppy before this started or has she always been anxious and had trouble settling?  How is she out on walks, does she behave 'normally'?

Can I ask what kind of routine she has during the day - is the walk that she does all in one go or spread over a couple of walks, what do you do with her in the way of training and brain work.  Is she responsuive to you, does she seem to learn normally with basic commands etc?  Also wandered what kind of food she is on.  Is she sociable with other people and dogs - does she enjoy interaction with you and other people?

Dobes can be prone to compulsive tendancies, they are very sensitive dogs that often have a strong working drives and really need to use their brains or they can devlop problems.  I have a Dobe that was very very active and stressy as a youngster (she remains a very sensitive dog) She needed to use her brain and she needed a lot of work - she really also needed to be taught to settle as well as lots of work on keeping stress levels low and teaching her self control.  She has a very strong prey drive so an ut let for this is a must to keep her balanced and happy.  She really thought sleep was a rude word until about 18 months/2 years :-D

Sorry for so many questions would just be useful to have a bit more information :-)

Glad to see you bringing up these aspects from our experience and asking these questions too.

I had already PM'd OP about all of this when she first posted, so it's reassuring to see you making the same comments.  Dobes have always been great at canine sports like Working Trials, Schutzund (or whatever the 'new' name is for it now) and Agility etc.  They definitely need mental stimulation as well as physical outlets for their energy.

I've only worked with a few dogs with ocd/sterotypies that had them to the extent of your dobe.

First off she needs to do something, she has tonnes of energy and brain power and needs an outlet for that. If you can I'd get her into a tuggy toy or a ball and play with her frequently with that. This should help satisfy some of her prey drive and energy needs.

I'd also look at exercise. The more she has that stimulates her properly the better. I'd say at least an hour plus a day (assuming she's healthy).
This should be a mix of ball/toy play, socilising with others (if she can) and free running.  Try and do it in a stimulating environment (so not laps of the tiny local park) such as woodland. I have also found getting these dogs into tracking scents really does them good.

Whats she eating? I'd look at an adult maintenance food. There are loads of good ones but avoid any additives and maybe experiment with different ingredients (e;g grain free, fish based ect) food can be a contribuatry factor.

I would also train her in basic commands to a high standard, if she got something to think about that will help calm her down.

Adam

I've just read Karenclynes and suzique's excellent posts and would like to reiterate their points. Dobes, especially the European lines, which you say she is, tend to have much higher drives and need to DO things (could you PM me her breeding?). How is she in the house and does she ever rest? What's she like on walks? Food could well be a contributing factor, what are you feeding her? Is she any only dog?

ETA: Maybe feeding her from an activity ball or kong would be an option for giving her more mental stimulation at feed times.