I am enquiring for a friend who is looking at buying a pup. Obviously there are some seriously bad breeders out there and I am trying to help her find a good breeder who health tests their breeding stock. I know this has been asked many times before but I can't find the results anywhere. What are the health tests that pugs should have before breeding.

Don't think they do many.  I know it's hard for a breed like this but I think they have one of the highest scores in America fo bad hips.  Don't know about patella problems.

Magaret, Barry and Gwen would be the best to ask.

Unfortunately they are not what I would call a healthy breed, if you are in the UK you could ask around breed clubs and also the KC. I would suggest that if they go ahead with this breed they keep their pup insured with a reliable company until it is at least 5 years old.

It is a shame that ill health seems common it is a breed I much admire, I do hope that I have seen the worst of the problems but I am not sure it is not widespread.

Sadly there are no recommended health tests in pugs. However there are some breeders who do test their eyes, hips, patellas and for hemivertebrae and also DNA screen. I'll PM you the name of one breeder I know does all of these.
Sadly (I know I may get knocked for this) many of their problems are purely conformation related, with such a flat face, lack of muzzle.
If your friend is adamant at getting a pug, go to a breeder that has tested the parents and look for obvious signs of possible problems. These could be more prominent eyes (lots of white showing), stenotic nares (tiny nostrils), excessive wrinkles, laboured breathing when excited.
Personality wise, pugs are the most rewarding, gorgeous dogs. Its just a real shame that they can potentially be prone to many problems purely because of the way they have been selectively bred.

Don't know if this will help, it's a link Jeangenie posted on another posting a short while ago:

http://www.pugs.co.uk/about-pugs/health-concerns/

Know nowt about them m'sel!

> Unfortunately they are not what I would call a healthy breed,

That is a bit of a sweeping statement Nova, are you speaking form personal experience, close observation of many pugs..., or jsut picking up on general media hype and some PR from vets who feel antipathy towards the breed?

I know Olive's owner has been dreadfully unlucky with her Pug, I dont' know how she is bred, so could not comment on any possible hereditary causes for her problems.  However, the vast majority of Pugs I know (and I know a lot of them :) ) are happpy, healthy small dogs, who are wonderful family pets and companions, some are show dogs, and some are even competing very succesfully at Agility - not a discipline for an unhealthy dog.  As various possters have said, there are no recorded health tests for the breed, although lots of breeders do test.  We have gone down the route of x rays for HV, I personally don't see the point in eye tests for the breed as the main eye conditons I am aware of in the breed is due to the shape of the eye - I know one fairly local vet who routinely recomends a sort of cosmetic surgery to change the eye shape on pet pugs, which I think is ocmpletely unecessary, but failry typical of a lot of vet's approach to the breed.  I know of severla others who have recomeneded puppy owners to have surgery done on perfectly normal pug nostrils.  The breed clubs have active health sections which are talking to each other and the KC about the breed and percieved and actual problems, as breeders we cherish the breed as a whole, not just as show dogs, and whilst there may be a few in favour of extreme exageration they are certainly no in the majority.

My advice would be to talk to lots of breeders, ask if you can talk to previous puppy buyers to get some sort of reference, meet the pugs and see how happy, healthy and lively they appear.  My pugs, and most of those I know, are happy to go out with other dogs and run and play just as much as other breeds.  Of course, you have to remember that they are Pugs and not, for instance Border Collies - expectations for each breed need to encompass the breed attributes.

You are correct Gwen it was a sweeping statement - perhaps I should say that I am aware of problems suffered by many pugs owned by people of my acquaintance - to me if you hear of more that one of two incidence in a breed you are not in then that breed may well have problems. There may be healthy lines around and that is why it is so important to do research, sadly not all breeders or enthusiasts will be very forward when it comes to admitting there is a problem in their lines so deep unbiased research is of the utmost importance.

I would never ever have a pug again, my old girl was the most charming kind pug ever, but she suffered all her life with ill heath, going blind at 7. I also met lots of other poorly pugs when talking to other pug owners.
I should advise your friend to choose a different breed and save herself lots of heartache. Its shocking that they don't have to have health tests when they must be one of the most unhealthy breeds out there.

I would never ever have a pug again, my old girl was the most charming kind pug ever, but she suffered all her life with ill heath, going blind at 7. I also met lots of other poorly pugs when talking to other pug owners.I should advise your friend to choose a different breed and save herself lots of heartache.

I have no personal interest in Pugs, but wanted to say that personal experiences are just that -personal -and you cannot tell other people what to do based on one or two of your own experiences. I for one will never again have a Golden Retriever as I've had nothing but trouble with them (and I've had TEN since 1981), but I won't tell people to never get one -I KNOW there are good ones out there, as there are of every single breed. Don't forget the breeds popular at the moment, -of which Pug is very much one -will have a larger number of back yard breeders and puppy farmers producing them, and therefore you will see a larger number of unhealthy ones, than in breeds less popular.

Mine came from a well respected and highly successful breeder, not a BYB . I've spoken to lots of pug owners and there are a lot of pugs out there with health problems from both show breeding people and hobby breeders. There will be good ones, but I bet there far and few between. The OP will make  up her own mind at the end of the day, but I hope she gets it insured if she goes for a pug.

Mine came from a well respected and highly successful breeder, not a BYB .

So did all my Goldens.

I've spoken to lots of pug owners and there are a lot of pugs out there with health problems from both show breeding people and hobby breeders.

Show  breeders and hobby breeders? The two are the same, you surely mean show breeders and back yard breeders.

Lets not go over the top suffice to say one hears of many cases of problems in Pugs considering their numbers, and when talking numbers you can't really relate Goldies and Pugs.

As with any puppy purchase care should be taken, research done and questions asked - then go with your heart and sound reliable insurance.

Show  breeders and hobby breeders? The two are the same, you surely mean show breeders and back yard breeders.

I don't, there are people showing who have huge kennels who run it as a business, professional breeders and there are people who show and breed for a hobby and people who don't show just breed dogs for a hobby. You can call them BYB if you want, using it as a derogatory term, but I bet there are loads of people on this forum who don't show, but just breed. Lots of BYBs lol

Anyone who breeds without either showing or working their dogs is NOT a responsible breeder, not doing it for the improvement of the breed -simple as that.

>Anyone who breeds without either showing or working their dogs is NOT a responsible breeder, not doing it for the improvement of the breed -simple as that.<

That seems to be a rather extreme view, I am sure there are plenty of other things that define a responsible breeder apart from working or showing dogs.

and I might also be putting the cat among the pigeons by saying that in some breeds the show breeders have not been improving the breeds in recent years and the pug is one of those affected by show breeders breeding for extremes.

That seems to be a rather extreme view, I am sure there are plenty of other things that define a responsible breeder apart from working or showing dogs.

So if a breeder does NOT breed with a goal in mind -be it showing, working trials, field trials, agility, obedience, schutzhund, anything of the sort -why DO they breed? It only leaves one reason -money. :( For the hobby breeder, it isn't so much the breeding part that is the hobby (in fact many of us HATE the breeding part, it's the necessary evil), it is what the breeding LEADS to -having something to show or work. Improving a breed. There are no good reasons whatsoever to breed unless you have a specific goal in which the breed will improve and/or continue.

>So if a breeder does NOT breed with a goal in mind -be it showing, working trials, field trials, agility, obedience, schutzhund, anything of the sort -why DO they breed?<

so where do the toy dogs fit in to this. They were bred to be companion dogs long before there were shows. >

>It only leaves one reason -money.<

Not necessarily. some people like having dogs as pets without showing or working them. There are far more dog owners out there who do nothing apart from have their dogs as much loved pets. If they happen to want to breed then why not? As long as they carry out the necessary health tests and rear the puppies properly and take responsibility for them why shouldn't they? And the working and show breeders rely on these pet homes to buy the puppys that don't make the grade for show and work >

>There are no good reasons whatsoever to breed unless you have a specific goal in which the breed will improve and/or continue.<

I really disagree with this. unless you want dogs to become an endangered species. There are far too few people who you would consider responsible breeders to hope to supply the number of dog owners out there. with 6 million dogs, who each live approximately 12 years each year we need 500,000 dogs to replace the ones that die. The number of show and working breeders cannot hope to produce  this many dogs. This is why people still buy from puppy farms. I would far rather buy a puppy from a small family breeder, even if they don't work or show than a puppy farm.  I think we shoul be encouraging people who want to breed their dogs for what ever reason to health test etc to bring the back yard breeders up to our standard rather than condemning them

so where do the toy dogs fit in to this. They were bred to be companion dogs long before there were shows.

Showing of course. They have to have the right look for their breed and the right temperament, as well as the health. All along I have said show OR work.

    >It only leaves one reason -money.<

Not necessarily. some people like having dogs as pets without showing or working them. There are far more dog owners out there who do nothing apart from have their dogs as much loved pets. If they happen to want to breed then why not? As long as they carry out the necessary health tests and rear the puppies properly and take responsibility for them why shouldn't they? And the working and show breeders rely on these pet homes to buy the puppys that don't make the grade for show and work >

I'll turn it around, why SHOULD they? What possible reason could there be? For fun? That is NOT the reason for breeding. As for your question, the reason for why they should NOT breed without a goal is that breeds will stop being breeds. We already know those dogs bred for working ability alone soon start to look in a different way, as looks are disregarded. But at least they have the working ability. If you breed for no reason whatsoever, you will soon end up with dogs that look and act nothing like their breed. Examples include Cavaliers that are oversized to the point of not being toydogs any more, Goldens and Labradors that have lost the retrieving instinct, etc. Look at all the chocolate Labradors around with pale yellow eyes -that's the sort of thing that happens when people breed for pets only. I see it all the time. You cannot breed without knowing what you are doing, and just having a good set of hips and a clear set of eyes is NOT enough not if you actually want separate breeds rather than a generic dog.

Yes the working and show breeders rely on good pet homes for puppies not making the grades, pet homes where they will NOT be bred from, because they were not good enough.

I really disagree with this. unless you want dogs to become an endangered species. There are far too few people who you would consider responsible breeders to hope to supply the number of dog owners out there. with 6 million dogs, who each live approximately 12 years each year we need 500,000 dogs to replace the ones that die. The number of show and working breeders cannot hope to produce  this many dogs.

That's just laughable. Do you want to replace all the ones in rescue as well? Which, incidentally, almost all came from the kind of breeder you seem to want to promote.

> I might also be putting the cat among the pigeons by saying that in some breeds the show breeders have not been improving the breeds in recent years and the pug is one of those affected by show breeders breeding for extremes.

Yes I would agree with you. I can not agree that anyone who breeds without either showing or working their dogs is NOT a responsible breeder. Unfortunately there must be many breeds that are shown that are not fit as working dogs, my own is one of those that has realy suffered. I joined this site still rageing at their health problems having gone to a respected (so I thoght at the time) 'responsible breeder' and it has been such a relief at CD to find commited dog lovers and owners who enjoy their dogs as part of the family and not 'only' as show animals.

got to agree with you there lacy very well said, sadly n my opinion the pug breed standard is not one for a healthy dog, many will lead long happy pain free lives others will suffer,it can happen in all breeds but in a way with the way a pug is made they have more chance of getting problems,it would be nice for the pug club to really knuckle down on health tests and/or the way the dog looks and is bred.i was blown away when i got my newfie,god the breeder really cares for her dogs,the amount of health test on both my newfies pedigree side are mind blowing and expensive,a contract as well and all because she cares for the breed,her dogs,and the pups they have.
champdogs has also made me see there are fab breeders out there that do all they can for their pedigree dogs and also will give you an honest opinion on your dogs problem,
jo

it has been such a relief at CD to find commited dog lovers and owners who enjoy their dogs as part of the family and not 'only' as show animals.

That's the majority of show breeders -the dogs are kept as pets. There's not many others left these days, it's definitely the old fashioned way of breeding (large kennels) and rather outdated now.

> So if a breeder does NOT breed with a goal in mind.......> There are no good reasons whatsoever to breed unless you have a specific goal in which the breed will improve and/or continue.

Agree entirely.  It would be far better for dogs if only those breeding in this way bred.  No dogs sold to impulse buyers, nearly all breeders taking back their own for re-homing.  Empty rescue shelters with waiting lists for the very occasional dog needing their services, bliss.

Much as it is in Sweden.

> So if a breeder does NOT breed with a goal in mind.......> There are no good reasons whatsoever to breed unless you have a specific goal in which the breed will improve and/or continue.

Agree entirely.  It would be far better for dogs if only those breeding in this way bred.  No dogs sold to impulse buyers, nearly all breeders taking back their own for re-homing.  Empty rescue shelters with waiting lists for the very occasional dog needing their services, bliss.

Much as it is in Sweden.

> So if a breeder does NOT breed with a goal in mind.......> There are no good reasons whatsoever to breed unless you have a specific goal in which the breed will improve and/or continue.

Agree entirely.  It would be far better for dogs if only those breeding in this way bred.  No dogs sold to impulse buyers, nearly all breeders taking back their own for re-homing.  Empty rescue shelters with waiting lists for the very occasional dog needing their services, bliss.

Much as it is in Sweden.

Ooh Brainless, such a good post you made it thrice! :)

IT'S THE SITE PLAYING UP!

Marrianne.
I can only speak from my own experience and can only hope that you are right when you say 'it's definitely the old fashioned way of breeding and rather outdated'. We have found it very different and unfortunately had to learn the hard way. Ours is not a popular breed and when we do meet up spend a long time chatting, and IMO it is the small minority that have NO health problems. I do realise that this is often due to the way they are kept such as weight/exercise, but not always. Our first came to us at 9 months, yes alarms bells should have rung when we were offered him five mins of arriving, we could take him then. We brought him home three weeks later when we were ready, found out afterwards that he prob was only exercised twice a month. For cutting his nails we were told to roll him over, straddle with knees and if he protested have a rolled up newspaper at hand. No wonder he ran from the room the first few days whenever we picked up a paper to read. Sorry I still rant and digress. I would never consider breeding 'fun' but surley if you choose do so within the breed and I do not mean cross breeding, people can do so with out showing or working - it's a small minority that work anyway these days? Please excuse my spelling.