I have a question. I live in the states, I decided breed my toy bitch, she's AKC and a very good healthy bitch, with a beautiful temperament. 

I secured a suitable stud from good lines and he came to my house to breed her. He arrived on Sunday May 2nd.  On Sunday he was very interested and tried to mount her immediately, but she was not quite ready and she would not stand for him.  The next day (Monday the 3rd) the dog was not interested at all.  She started to show interest, but he did not attempt a breeding.

On May 4th, the dog briefly tried again, but didn't succeed. My female constantly flagged him, basically begging him, but he was no longer interested.  At this time I called the breeder and told him of my concerns.  He said to give it one more day, because he  believed that they probably tied when I didn't see them, although I wasn't sure that had happened.

I again let the owner know that there was nothing happening, and told him that I would be returning the dog.  He still insisted that there could have been a tie, so foolishly I told him that I would give him pick of litter as previously planned.  But from that point I kept both of them separated, until I could return the first stud to his owner on the Friday, May 7th.

I had secured a back up stud, just in case something like this happened, and on May 7th I returned the first stud to the breeder, and took my bitch to the second stud.   The second stud on being introduced to the bitch, immediately got the job done, before I'd even left the house. I decided to leave her overnight to avoid another car ride.  I picked her up the following evening May 8th.  The breeder said that there had been no other tie.

So to get to the point.  I had promised pick of litter to the first stud's owner, if I felt the puppies were the first dog's puppies.

Today it's July 8th and my bitch has not whelped, nor has she shown any signs of whelping. Tomorrow is the 63rd day from breeding with the second stud. I truly believe that the first stud did not tie with my bitch, and therefore, even though we had an agreement for pick of litter, I don't believe I should part with a puppy, as the time imho has passed when the first stud could have fathered these pups. 

According to my records, the puppies from the first stud, would have arrived July 4th or 5th.

I would love your opinion on what you would do.  Would you give pick of litter to the first stud's owner, even if you are positive there was no tie?  Or would you try and work out something amicable between us. 

Bee Bee.

personally i would not give pick of litter but if he was certain that the puppies are from his stud i would say to him that he can have them DNA tested and if the puppies are from his stud he can then have pick.

Hi Bee Bee, The fail safe thing to do is to have all three adults and all the puppies DNA profiled then you will know for sure which male sired the puppies. You will need to know anyway, to be able to register them and provide honest information on pedigree to the new puppy owners.

Dawn R.

Yes, you will need to get them DNA tested, then you know if the pups are the 1st or 2nd dog's pups.

As above - the only sure way to know who the sire is, is to DNA test.

And can I also add, for the benefit of others reading this thread, that leaving two dogs together when a bitch is in season is a very foolish thing to do. Not only do you not know whether they have mated or not, but, more importantly, either or both could be seriously injured should one of them panic when they are tied. No responsible dog breeder would suggest doing this. And I'm surprised that a stud dog owner would leave a bitch with a novice breeder - not something I would dream of doing.

You can get mum, litter and ONE (possible) dad tested, at least this way they will be able to tell if he is or isn't dad to the litter.

Ridgielover, you would be surprised at just how many stud dog owners do this, I know of one definitely in our breed and his dog is used a lot, he just leaves dog/bitch in the garden to get on with it, which I think is disgusting and very dangerous.

Firstly as there is a possibility that both studs mated the bitch you will need to take DNA samples from the three individuals and all the pups and find out who the sire is.

This will then clarify the issue. 

As the bitch has had contact with two males during her season you have to ascertain the parentage so that the pedigrees are correct.

Personally I feel you sent the first stud away too soon.

It is quite normal for a male to initially get excited and attempt to mate on first meeting the bitch, to test the water so to speak.

Then again it is quite often the bitch will show willingness before she is fully fertile (from ovulation, but eggs won't be ripe for another two days) and some males prefer to mate the bitch at the most fertile moment, making them wait. 

The fact that the second dog mated her a couple of days later shows that she likely was still not spot on before.

You can find all the details and the service you might require for parentage verification from the main DNA page on the AKC website -
http://www.akc.org/dna/index.cfm

Thank you everyone for your help.  I know I'm a novice, that's why I came here to this board for help. It seems like in the UK from reading this board, that you take so much more care and attention than here in the US.  I was born and raised in the UK and reading your posts, bring back so many memories of my childhood. I haven't been back to the UK since the early 1970's and I miss it so much.  So reading the way you all 'speak' and the accents that I can imagine in your posts has been really quite enjoyable.

The stud told me the best way to make sure of a tie was to leave them together.  But after May 5th I kept them apart.  The stud would actually growl at my bitch when she made advances, that is why I didn't want to continue with that stud.  Don't get me wrong, he was a realy great stud and a sweet natured dog, but when I saw that she seemed to be annoying him with her advances, I thought it was time to be done with it, and use the back up stud.

Today is my bitch's 63rd day from the tie with the second stud.  She shows no signs of labour, but the pups are kicking and she's her normal cheery, but very laid back self.  The tie was in the evening, so I'm not panicking yet, but if you'd all be kind enough to advise when I should being concerned.

She's just here chewing on a dog toy and wagging her tail at me, so I know she's feeling herself and is not in any stress, and certainly not in labour yet.

Thank you for your kindness and being understanding of my situation. I was actually expecting a few negative posts, and I was happy you all were so generous in your advice.

I did contact the owner of the first stud and he conceded that if she does not whelp by Sunday, they cannot be the first stud's litter. However I plan on a DNA test to be fair to all involved.

Thank you again.

Bee Bee

Depending on breed can mean you need to worry if they go over 63 days or not.

A lot depends on whether whelping problems and labour failing to start and C sections are common.

The best advice is usually from the bitches breeder who can advise what is normal for her female relatives as often such traits run in families.

For example in my breed bitches rarely go 63 days, but they tend not to stand until well past ovulation when eggs are fully ripe.

With some breeds it is not unusual for puppies to be born a week early, and with others several days late is not a worry.

Firstly I would never have left the dogs alone together at all, so I would know if the 1st dog had entered her as I would be around to assist and help avoid injuries. But anyway, as the deed is done then there is nothing else to do but DNA test the whole litter, and if any are sired by the 1st dog then you need to give him pick of those pups - it is possible to have litters with two fathers, even 3 days apart so you need to DNA test to register them anyway.