Not sure if this should be on here or the health list. A friend has a litter of puppys  which have heart murmurs at the moment. Obviously friend is hoping they will clear up before they go to their new homes in a couple of weeks. The new owners have been told about the murmurs and still want the puppies but a couple have asked for a reduction in price because of the murmurs.
the murmurs are at present grade  1 or 2 so hopefully will either clear up or not cause any symptoms or require treatment.
Should my friend redice the price  and if so how much is a fair reduction?

Hi  labs4me, that's a difficult one. I  have had Boxer puppies who at 8/10 weeks, when they have gone for their 1st. injection, have had a heart murmur,  but by the time they went  for their 2nd  injection, it had diminished considerably, and by the time that they were 20 weeks, it had gone completely. I am not sure if it is the same for all breeds tho'.

I recall being told many years ago with my first collie, on our visit to the vet for her first jab, she had a heart murmur ... it certainly wasn't there at the time of the 2nd jab nor did it ever re-appear! I don't understand the gradings, but I should think she needs more clarification from the vet, possibly even discussing what's being asked of her.

personally i wouldnt educe the price just yet , but tell the new owners if the puppy has a murmur at say 5months and they confirm with a letter from the vet i would then give them some  money back

I run them on....... as so called 'flow murmurs'  go in my breeds by 12-14 weeks, not long after I let them go anyway.

I did once give a Cavalier with a FM to a friend who subsequently had her graded by a cardiologist at one year as a 0.

Selling with the murmur at present is probably not a great idea unless sold as such at a reduced price, stating clearly why it was reduced.

The new owners vet may completely refute everything you have said and put the fear of doG into them.

It happens!

I would say as flow murmurs in very young pups are not uncommon and usually resolve that it is written into the contract if the pups still have a murmur at 12 weeks plus, on production of a vet certificate 'x' amount will be refunded.

This is assuming the vets opinion is that they are likely to resolve.

I believe more developmental murmurs are being picked up with vaccination schedules being brought forward in many cases to start at 8 weeks rather than previously 9 or 10 weeks finishing at 12 weeks, not finishing at 10 weeks.

I took a puppy that was 8 weeks today to vet for first jabs as she is being exported, and the Vet had to try several times re heart as it sounded as if there was a murmur, where in fact it was her breathing/panting due to the heat.  When she stopped panting and wriggling he could be sure there was no problem.

Hi I replied on your other thread. Having had a GSD pup die at 5 months, a murmur was present, I would run the puppies on myself until I knew they were clear. If they are going to clear then it's only a little longer and if not you save a family the heartache of losing their new puppy. I would also seriously look at wether to breed from the parents again if 4 puppies are affected.
I think to sell a puppy knowing it has a defect is not great

Hi, Thanks for your reply, The murmurs are mild, should not cause symptoms and the vet has said may well clear up. The owners are fully informed and want the puppies. so my friend is happy to let them go. She will be there for the new owners should the situation change. the pups are not being sold for breeding and I don't think my friend is planning to breed her girl again.
The owner of the stud dog has denied all responsibilty and said it is nothing to do with him which has been rather dissappointing, so I beleive that his owner is likely to carry on using him.

the mum's heart is fine. Does anyone know  the inherritance of heart murmurs?

> Does anyone know  the inherritance of heart murmurs?

Now there's a question.........!!

And one many people would give a great deal to know.

A very complex genetic conundrum.

I agree with newfienook. 

My own vet had a breeder with a litter of Border Terriers, and one had a flow murmur.  As the puppy buyer still wanted the puppy, it was agreed that if the murmer didn't disappear (vet was positive that it would), then they could keep the pup with full refund.

It actually never came to that, as it cleared.

I bought a pup many years ago and found at her first health check she had a murmur.  The vet and the breeder said that it would probably clear up but it never did.  The only thing she couldn't do was have pups as I didn't want to strain her her heart or pass the problem on so technically, she was still 'fit for purpose'.  I never got a refund as the breeder wanted the pup back.  She died of cancer at 13 having a murmur her whole life.

I had lovely home lined up for a sheltie - had puppy eye test done to find out she had problems with undeveloped optic nerves, something very rare in shelties but hereditary in other breeds.  Fortunately the home still wanted her and I sold her for peppercorn amount.  She had her eyes retested at 12 months and has very small optic nerves but her sight is pretty good.  She has a wonderful home and runs on the beach most days.  If they hadn't have wanted her I'd have kept her, of course, but she's thorough spoilt and much loved, much better for her to be like that than not although I'd have loved and spoiled her.  Surely it's better to find good homes for pups not 100% than put them to sleep? It would depend on what was wrong, but these wonderful folk said they'd love her more because she wasn't perfect.

Heart murmurs are terrible tricky. I paid through the nose to have my lot heart tested by an 'expert' and was horrified to hear that they all had bad murmurs (my previous vet had said he thought that they were clear but I needed to get them certified). I returned to my vet absolutely distraught. He suggested calming down and taking them for echocardiograms. 2 months later, with my account being suitable drained, I was told that my boy was not a '3' but a '0' and that the 'expert' must have been distracted by my boys breathing! One of the girls was also a '1' and not a '2'. When their puppies arrived we had the vet have a quick listen and out of the 9 pups we had 2 with minor murmurs which he called 'innocent' murmurs. We explained to the prospective owners that there were minor murmurs in their pups, but that we believed that they would diminish as they matured, and were they still interested in the pups. I did not offer to reduce the price, and they did not ask. Many pups do grow out of their murmurs, or they do not worsen, and as long as it is not severe then they can live long and happy lives. If these are boxers then the prospective owners should be aware of the potential for heart murmurs if they have researchedd the breed as I insist all prospective owners do. Your friend should not reduce the price in my opinion because if they have done all the necessary health tests for the breed (and I assume they will have) then they have done their best to avoid medical problems. I would suggest that your friend find other buyers, and ask them to heart test the puppies when they get to between 12-18 months of age, which is the responsible thing to do with any pet which is at risk of SAS or cardiomyopathy (however small the risk may be). You will be surprised how many people try and blag a reduction in price for pups, I've had loads such as "Can I not pay and then give you a puppy when I breed?", and also, "If I buy two can I have one half price?" - both a resounding NO. So in conclusion (apologies for rambling) there should be no reduction in price.

i personally wouldnt reduse the price as i have heard this soooo many times, it seems to me that vets say every puppy they see has a heart murmur, we had to take our cocker to the vets a few weeks ago, she is a working gun dog and gets a hell of amount of exercise which we explained to the vet and he said she has a heart murmur but that with the amount of excercise she gets then obviously we have nothing to worry about, i dont believe that she has a heart murmur i believe that what he was hearing was her breathing, i think its just another way of vets making money out of people

LouLou22

I think you are confusing two different heart conditions in dogs.

If you are refering to Boxers then the murmur most commonly associated is AS - Aortic Stenosis which is a thickening of the Aorta just as it leaves the left ventical, this causes turbulence and therefore a murmur.

In Innocent - or Flow murmur commonly found in puppies, this is caused by an incomplete closure of one of the chamber walls after the switch over from placental circulation to double circulation which requires re-routing through the lungs after birth. These flow murmurs very often close and diminish at around 12-16 weeks and are considered developmental murmurs.

If pups had inherited AS the noise would be at a different site in the heart even from very early on and should not be confused with a FM.

> You will be surprised how many people try and blag a reduction in price for pups

This always suprises me as in 30 years of breeding pedigree dogs ( over 20 of these in Boxers) I have never had anyone trying to Blag a reduction...so yes I would be very surprised.

I've had someone visit my litter of pups once who tried to 'haggle' the price.  Needless to say, much to the wifes dismay, they never got a pup.  I asked him if money were such an issue, how would they deal with vets cost, insurance, feeding, etc?  Is he going to try and haggle with those companies?  I was horrified at his cheek. 

A couple of years ago I had chosen a  puppy from a litter.  I had been in contact with the breeder from when the puppy was merely a few weeks old and visited often until she was 10 weeks old.  Just before I was due to collect her the breeder rang to say the the puppy had a heart murmur - it was detected at the time of the first vaccination and still present - although minor - at the second.  I was very upset having formed a relationship with the breeder and pup.  I asked my vet for advice and was strongly advised not  to proceed.  Vet said that there were so many potential problems with rearing a puppy that it was advisable to have a complete bill of  health.  I did also speak to the puppy's vet who did think the murmer could well disappear in time.

After a lot of soul searching I decided against that particular pup as I did intend to breed her eventually and wanted to do some showing too.  I found another puppy who was given a 100% bill of health and have never had any sort of problem with her,  I do however  often think of the one I nearly had - but was told that she had been sold to a good home as a pet.

Snowflake