I saw this subject on the recent thread that has been locked making replying impossible.

I think that it should be made clear that Appeasement Behaviours fall into two categories - Active Submission and Passive Submission. 

Both sets of behaviours are learnt by pups as young as 5 weeks of age and the responses are taught to pups primarily by the mother but also by the father as a form of communication. 

Active Submission displays include: active fawning, nuzzling, licking, play-soliciting bowing, crouching down and wriggling forward.  They also include 'grinning' where the lips are pulled back resembling a look of 'submission'.  They are all 'attention seeking behaviours'.

These displays are often coupled with other ambiguous signs such as repeatedly trying to get on the owners lap, and licking despite being discouraged.  These behaviours, although associated with active submission or appeasement are used 'manipulatively' to CONTROL the owner!

Passive Submission displays include a reduction in movement - freezing, averting eye contact, lowering the head and body to the ground, sometimes flipping over to expose tummy and groin, sometimes there is submissive urination.

Appeasement behaviours are not always signs of stress they are signs of greeting, attention seeking and manipulation.   All of the above are quoted from applied behaviour handbooks.

I agree with Adam (although i do not advocate the use of ecollars before anyone suggests I do) Appeasement Behaviours do not always indicate the dog is under any kind of stress, they indicate that the dog is communicating a variety of other things. 

Indicators of stress include dilated pupils, sweating paws, panting, increased heart rate etc etc.  these signs are not associated with appeasement.

Perhaps I should also add that, from what it says in the books I have, when the word 'Appeasment' is applied to canine behaviour it does not mean the same thing as we as humans understand the dictionery definition to mean.  Appeasment could be said to show the difference between dominant (I hate that term too) and non dominant behaviours, threatening or non-threatening behaviours, aggressive or friendly behaviours.  It does not necessarily mean a dog is offering 'pacifying' behaviour when it offers appeasement behaviours although in some situations it may be.

Nor does a dog displaying appeasment behaviours imply a dog is 'grovelling' as has been suggested on the locked thread.  A dog when first meeting another will offer appeasement displays to show that it means no harm to the other.  It isn't grovelling - it is just saying ' I am friendly and mean you no harm'. 

  

> Indicators of stress include dilated pupils, sweating paws, panting, increased heart rate etc etc.  these signs are not associated with appeasement.

Indicators of stress are far more diverse than that and can include ANY behviour that would otheriwse be 'normal' such as scratching & sniffing. For example, a dog that is shouted at may appear to 'idly' sniff the floor, a displacement behaviour through stress, if one does not read the entire situation right then that sniffing can be overlooked (just as it appears to be overlooked in several vids advocating e-collars).

Yes, I agree that some 'apeasement' behaviours are fine, I have no worry about my dogs stress levels when he jumps at me doing a play-bow to get me to play - BUT if he is doing a play-bow as a result of something I've done (riased my voice too sternly for example) then, IMO he is stressed and he is trying to communcate that to me by trying to 'calm me down'.

Things aren't as cut & dry as the handbooks, a play-bow is an invitation to play is some situations, a friendly greeting in others and can be a calming signal, just as many other behaviours have several meanings. These behaviours need to be read in context.

Thanks Suzie, put far more eloquently than I could have.

Re calming signals. I think people read to much into it sometimes. Often a dog is just sniffing! This idea that every little action is in someway related to stress is counter productive and unproven.

Adam

> Re calming signals. I think people read to much into it sometimes. Often a dog is just sniffing! This idea that every little action is in someway related to stress is counter productive and unproven.

Tell that to Turid Rugaas!

But to have a balanced view you need both sides and this wasn't being shown on the other thread.  Using such emotive words as grovelling puts an incorrect connotation on the meaning of appeasment.  This is not what a dog is doing when it displays such behaviour.  Appeasment displays are rarely the result of stress, they are purely a means of communicating.  Displacement behaviours however are, as Adam said, not the same thing and often are a result of stress.  Quite rightly when asked what he would do if he saw a dog in training sniffing the ground or scratching he replied he would look at whether the dog had an itch.  Too much is read  into quite ordinary everyday behaviours and problems are seen where non exist.

However, if a dog was offering calming signals (as per Turid Ruugas) then it may well be that the dog feels the owner has acted severely or in bad temper.  But there is a difference between calming signals - yawning, tongue flicking, lip licking, sideways glances  and appeasment displays. 

In the last two years, I've done a lot of studying at undergraduate degree level regarding appeasment behaviours and stress for my degree/dissertation. My particular study was with real owners and dogs in a real training situation in a village hall. The owners had to use their own methods to teach their dog to Stand from a sit position, and they were filmed for this purpose. This was a novel training exercise for those owners/dogs :).

There is a lot of info that relates appeasement to stress in a training situation - context is the important thing! If a dog has been asked to do something, and then shows appeasement, you can be certain that in that context, the dog is offering up appeasment behaviours due to stress.

Appeasement behaviours include rolling over and showing the stomach, lip licking, head turn away, tongue flicking, paw lifting (crucial - at a 45 degree angle) and so on. The paw lift can also be due to anticipation etc but again, context, context, context.

Re the sweaty paws, dilation of pupils ect, these are well documented signs of stress, but these are the physiological signs only :)

Lindsay
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If you go back to my posting Lindsay you will see that I noted there are two types of appeasement behaviours - active and passive.  It is important to recognise the difference between the two to identify what is driving the appeasement display.

Appeasement behaviours do not always mean the dog is grovelling nor does it mean the dog is stressed and that point was not made clear on the locked thread. 

Stress during training mostly displays as Displacement Behaviours which is what Adam said.  Not only have I studied Canine Behaviour and Psychology at Advanced Diploma level I was a professional trainer and behaviourist for many years before I retired.  I also saw first hand in training sessions just what behaviours dogs offered when under any kind of mild to more severe stress.

Quite rightly when asked what he would do if he saw a dog in training sniffing the ground or scratching he replied he would look at whether the dog had an itch.  Too much is read  into quite ordinary everyday behaviours and problems are seen where non exist.

I think sometimes, to be fair, this can happen, especially with people who are not used to looking for anything different.
It's easy to find something that isn't there. It's easy to say "look,that dog's stressed, it's doing X Y or Z".

However, in the situation above, yes you'd briefly take into account whether the dog had an itch, but an experienced person who understood dog behaviour would also recognise whether it was a displacement behaviour - I hope! :)
Again, it is context. You can't do anything without that word! ;)

I saw a dog at a show who had broken her stay and she was being made to stay outside the ring. She, after a few seconds, started to scratch. This was 100% displacement and stress. The owner/trainer was very old school, could not understand her dog and proceeded to yank it up by the collar. She never did get her stay.

Lindsay
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First I'd assess wether it was behavioural or physical, does the dog have an itch for example.

The sitting down and scratching is a displacement behaviour. If a dog did it often during training I would think the dog was getting a little overwhelmed. Since using e collars I've not found that happen. However when using just rewards I found it happened a few times as the dog got so drivey he over loaded.

The above Lindsay is a direct copy of what Adam said.  He does realise that scratching can be a response to an itch but also is a displacement behaviour.  He said so with absolute clarity.

Appeasement behaviours do not always mean the dog is grovelling nor does it mean the dog is stressed and that point was not made clear on the locked thread. 

I think the fact that Adam was downplaying the relevance of these behaviours,  and tended to not agree that appeasement behaviours shown during training were important or useful as indicators of the dog's state of mind. This is incorrect.
It's a common thing for shock collar users in fact - better to ignore/deny something that may indicate stress, because it does not fit comfortably with the kind of training being done (i.e. shock).

If of course, it was accepted by them, then it would be very hard for the shock collar trainer to stand up for the training they do!

I agree that appeasement is not always linked to stress, (example - a dog who has learnt to grin to seek attention from his owner - that is not stress, that is manipulation, clever dog!) but when we are talking (shock collar) training it is far more likely to be stress.
The way you can tell for sure if is if the behaviour occurs immediately after a command.
Less easy to tell, but also if the dog is generally stressed it may show behaviours that are possibly appeasement but depending on the situation you cannot always be 100% sure. IF the behaviour occurs after a command, (or shock I guess) then that is appeasement/stress.

Stress during training mostly displays as Displacement Behaviours which is what Adam said.

Agree :) you do get many displacement behaviours, I'd given an example in my post above.   Appeasment behaviours in context are also stress :)  Examples I've seen, and are documented as appeasement,  are crouching, lip licking and tongue flicking, grinning, head turn away...

Not only have I studied Canine Behaviour and Psychology at Advanced Diploma level I was a professional trainer and behaviourist for many years before I retired.

I explained what I have been doing only to show that I've been studying this very subject for two years :) . I've gone through piles of research on the subject written by others, critiqued, integrated that into my own study, and built on that,  and also done my own study relating exactly to dogs, owners, appeasement and stress. Of course there will always be disagreement, that is the way of things.

I also saw first hand in training sessions just what behaviours dogs offered when under any kind of mild to more severe stress.

Yes, me too and I'm sure a few others on here :)

Lindsay
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The above Lindsay is a direct copy of what Adam said.  He does realise that scratching can be a response to an itch but also is a displacement behaviour.  He said so with absolute clarity.

Ah, that's a bit different to how you referred to it yourself a little earlier, (on this thread) which is what I was, in fairness, replying to:

Quite rightly when asked what he would do if he saw a dog in training sniffing the ground or scratching he replied he would look at whether the dog had an itch. Too much is read  into quite ordinary everyday behaviours and problems are seen where non exist.


Lindsay
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If you go back and look at what I said I had already referred to the fact that Adam was aware of displacement behaviours and he quite rightly said he would check to see if 'scratching' was a natural response to a physical condition.  I think there is an instance of not fully reading or appreciating exactly which mesage posters are trying to convey.

Its the 'distance' problem again.

I feel that sometimes Adam is not given the credance for the knowledge and experience he has.  Unfortunately, he sees a place for ecollar use, many here (me included) do not.  This seems to be a stumbling block for them seeing the value in other things he says that are absolutely valid and correct.

If you go back and look at what I said I had already referred to the fact that Adam was aware of displacement behaviours and he quite rightly said he would check to see if 'scratching' was a natural response to a physical condition.

Sorry, I'm confused. Isn't this what I just quoted?  If you could please quote what you refer to, it would be easier :)