I have a girl coming to my boy. Suggested they progesterone test. Went on Friday and the Vet thought she may be ready. They telephoned me on Saturday and the test had not arrived at Idexx so I said we would try her Saturday night. Did not get a good mating so we tried on Sunday with my boy being handled by a very experienced chap. Great mating and 15 min tie. Results from Idexx on Monday said that she was far too low, test again and more likely it would be Wednesday. They went on Tuesday for the test and saw another Vet. Very unhelpful, she said what is this test? They explained and said they had to get the timing right as they were travelling some distance and she does tend to have irregular seasons. The Vets answer was well if she is irregular then just let her run with the local dog next time or have her spayed!. They were horrified and a little despondent. Anyway luckily no problems with the second mating but it begs the question that when Vets see poorly pups and some with all sorts of health problems why on earth would they talk to their clients like this and basically advocate puppy producing in this manner.

There are good and bad in every profession I suppose and unless people complain to whoever runs the practice or the BVA then this sort of view will carry on.

No wonder there are so many back yard breeders. :(

Needless to say that now know which Vet to ask for when they need to see their Vet.

I have my girls bloods done if I want to have a litter and my vet practice has still not really go the hang of it!  Recently a bitch I co-own went down and they put blood in wrong vial so no test could be done on that sample!  No real apology. I now speak to a vet nurse when booking appt and she gets the correct vial out for me!!

I also recently had a stud enquiry and bitch had just had her hips/elbows x-rayed and were waiting for result before I agreed to the mating etc.  Apparently her vet told her there was no ethical reason why this bitch shouldn't have a litter - scores came back elbows 0:0 and hips 19:19!!  Obviously owner devastated and I feel vet should have had some idea if what score would come back as, especially as I know this surgery does it on a regular basis.

Also, if I see a different vet for CHV, I have to explain every time my reasons for requesting/using it.

Unless your vet has bred a litter themselves or been close to someone who has, I think you are extremely lucky if yours is a good one in all aspects of breeding.

My initial thought was.. what a dreadfull vet.. but unless you are actually there, witnessing the conversation.. everything is hearsay..

Many vets know breeders can and do run their girl alongside an experienced dog, giving a good indication of when the girl is close to being ready.. this COULD perhaps been what the vet meant, or even said..

Information where relayed to a third party, loses a little on the way..

And yes, possibly many of us would run an irregular girl alongside a local (as in experienced breeder with local experienced dog) dog, just as a guide before going to the chosen stud... In fact, how often have we recommended some posters do this on CD... a few times ;-)

I doubt this.

Most vets DO consider cross breed puppies to be healthier than pure bred so why wouldn't he suggest creating the latter?

I was at my vet recently with a pure bred puppy on my lap when a lady with a lurcher puppy was discussing the pros and cons of Vet insurance with the staff.  It was decided in their conversation that it was less needed in a cross then a pure bred dog and that was the whole staff.
When I interjected " I hardly make this practice rich do I?" The vet turned and said.." well perhaps not you but you should see what we see day in day out".
They see the whole picture perhaps and dont have the time to pick out the nuances of what makes a better 'breeder'..they seem to see so few!
Everytime I try to redress the balance of this view with vet professionals they just point out that I'm just a drop in the ocean.
My take on it anyhow.

Just thinking about this, the majority of pedigrees vets will see, won't be from responsible breeders, who health test and aim to breed healthy pups, and from their point of view, they will lump all pedigree dogs together.  Most vets wouldn't know a well bred pedigree from someone who's just bunged two dogs together to make a few bob. 

For example, when I was taking Indie for her appointments to see a specialist after a second op to repair her cruciate, they saw a lot of chocolate Labradors in for cruciate surgery, and an awful lot were pet bred, byb or worse, they were not what I would call good examples of the breed, even with my limited knowledge I could see that.  But, all the vet saw were *ten* pedigree chocolate Labradors, not two nicely bred ones and eight without any thought behind the breeding.  And as conformation of the knee joint plays an important role in cruciate injury, unfortunately, it's something that affects a lot of badly bred Labradors. 

Good breeders of pedigree dogs are a drop in the ocean, as your vet says, as unfortunately (in my mind at least), there are probably a vast majority who don't put the right amount of thought or work into breeding, they do produce kc registered pups, but not as you would, or any other ethical/responsible breeder of KC dogs.

Interesting post btw!

I don't breed but so very glad that my vet has done and he also shows at times too so understands many things when i question him.
I would happily recommend him as a vet as i really trust him and his judgment.
So very glad that someone in my breed recommended this surgery to me and as to which vets to use in the practice..
My last vet hated my breed and any large/giant breed it appeared. Didn't seem to approve of people breeding either. I decided to wind him up one day and told him i was getting a Newf, the expression on his face was classic :-D...They were also not open to raw feeding either and felt all dogs needed to be neutered and couldn't understand my choice to want to show..

They see the whole picture perhaps and dont have the time to pick out the nuances of what makes a better 'breeder'..they seem to see so few!

Yes, because they don't need the vet constantly as their dogs are healthy. :D Many breeders use one cheap practice for things like boosters, others don't booster at all, many never blood test to find right date for mating (I've never had this done), they microchip their own pups etc etc, so their normal vet may not see their dogs for years.

I've recently changed vets (this year) and now do all my boosters and everything else at the one place only, and as sometimes happens I've had a lot of boosters due recently. In the past month I have been in with 7 cats and one dog for boosters, all healthy -and I notice it has made an impression on the staff. Plenty of comments like "Oh what nice temperament" or "Nice to hear of breeders doing all they can to produce healthy animals" etc.

I have just got back form my Vets with my 2 baby girls after 1st vaccination, one a lovely, big bouncing pup of 3lb 14 oz, the other a tiny dot of 1lb 13oz!  The little one looks just like a a 4 week old puppy - probably not even instantly recognisable as the breed she is!  However, a guy in the waiting room commented on her size, and said he supposed she woudl be more expensive "being miniature" :( .  I explained that far from being a miniature she had been a very poorly puppy, had refused to eat for days when she was 3 weeks old, had had 2 lots of infections needing antibiotics, and due to all of this would never be for sale anyway - he look surprised and said that in all the ads the tiny ones cost more he looked at me as if I was a bit of a nutcase not spotting a money making opportunity)  Both the receptionist and I tried to explain that the "teacup" dogs seen advertised were not rare, casrefully bred miniatures, but either weedy runts or possibly crossed with a tiny breed like a Chihuahua.  Whilst discussing her size wiht the vet during her checkover I repeated this conversation, and said that they have acoule of puppy farm clients, and both have commented to him that the tiny one are always the first to be picked.

I htink that as he has 2 staff members who show and breed he has a firmer fix on the difference between good and bad breeders, but the vast majority of pedigrees who go though vets surgeries seem to come from the latter, which may go some way towards explaining their skewed view.

My Vet is fantastic. He is just so knowledgeable and yet is always open to any suggestions that I make and will tell me honestly if he things it may/may not work but always supportive. All the staff know that I try my hardest to ensure , health, welfare and so importantly temperament and I get treated brilliantly. I have just recently recommended to a friend that she goes to him with a sick puppy. Her Vet had just dismissed her and told her that if the puppy wasn't feeding then it would die, no mention of anything she could try, no help and no support. She was devastated. I took her off to my Vet who gave her Synulox drops (puppy had a very inflamed palette) puppy stim and lots of encouragement. The Vet nurses had her coming in every two days for check ups and feeding support and never charged her although they would spend half an hour or more with her. They even offered that if she was struggling with the night time feeds they may be able to take her overnight between them and give her a break. Puppy is now doing great and only 1oz less than her smallest. Needless to say she has changed Vets.

My last vet hated my breed and any large/giant breed it appeared. Didn't seem to approve of people breeding either....They were also not open to raw feeding either and felt all dogs needed to be neutered and couldn't understand my choice to want to show..

I have heard a similar story recently too.  Someone came to mate their bitch and as we weren't sure of where she was in her season I asked the owner if they had spoken to their Vet about pre-mate testing.  Their reply was that they had asked, but their Vet was very anti-breeding and wasn't interested.  No doubt they would have been 'interested' if the bitch had required a C-section costing lots of money!  My own Vet is worth her weight in gold and I consider her a friend as well as my Vet.  As for the anti-breeding stance....I wonder if any of these Vets have thought this through to the end? No breeding = no puppies/kittens to vaccinate, castrate/spay, no new owners to hard-sell ridiculously expensive food to and eventually, probably no more job!  (not that the loss of some of this deluded Vets would cause me to lose sleep ;-))

As for the anti-breeding stance....I wonder if any of these Vets have thought this through to the end? No breeding = no puppies/kittens to vaccinate, castrate/spay, no new owners to hard-sell ridiculously expensive food to and eventually, probably no more job!  (not that the loss of some of this deluded Vets would cause me to lose sleep ;-))

The vet I have just left enticed clients by saying breeders get discounts, they do this and that for breeders etc. Then once you were with them, out came all the comments about how all breeders are cruel etc.  In the end I had such a nasty experience that we left. Now considering we had spent thousands of pounds there in the year or so we were with them, you'd have thought they'd do more to keep us.......The new ones are SO much nicer!

Quite agree about some VETS. Our orginal vet gave the wrong dates, told us there was only one pup and suggested an abortion - 4 pups survived!

Best way is to change, we did and our new vet was horrified by the mis information - even the Vet Tech tols us the vet was wrong

> they just point out that I'm just a drop in the ocean

Very sadly, I think they are probably right.

>> they just point out that I'm just a drop in the ocean
> Very sadly, I think they are probably right.

They could help the situation though by discouraging some of the ill thought out back yard bred litters.

When a client comes in saying they want to breed they should give out the info on health testing, might put a lot of casual people off.

Half of them have no idea how to arrange eye tests, or who to refer you to, and Hip Scoring is pretty hit and miss with the average vet practise.

Why don't they have the BVA health scheme literature up?.

What about posters about Alizin for mismating?

As for trying to get premates arranged, forget it.

Agree totally Brainless. I once took a dog to have an operation which would have "materially altered its conformation". So I presented its KC registration certificate with it on the day of the operation. On handing it over the Vet asked me why I had brought it. I pointed to the wording on the reverse and told him he was entitled to report the op to the KC. He laughed and said "if it wasn't for inherited defects in dogs I would be out of a job". Just about says it all and Prof Steve Dean got it right when he said recently Vets should be more responsible.

"........scores came back elbows 0:0 and hips 19:19!!  Obviously owner devastated and I feel vet should have had some idea if what score would come back as, especially as I know this surgery does it on a regular basis."

The "catch" with the BVA requirement for the owner submitting their dog for scoring is the owner has to sign the required submission form before the dog is actually done. From my past experience it gives the Vet the opportunity to get the X-ray in the post before the owner gets to see and discuss the result.  If the Vet is "unavailable" to show the owner the result before it's sent off it's another way to get away with less than an ideal job and the owner will never know. I'm too experienced to get caught now!

"Also, if I see a different vet for CHV, I have to explain every time my reasons for requesting/using it." The Veterinary practice nearest to me refuses to give it. Probably too difficult a subject to get involved in advising about!

Re the hips - the vet actually thought they looked fine!  It is a practice that is apparently recommended for taking plates - needless to say I will never use them or recommend them.

>They could help the situation though by discouraging some of the ill thought out back yard bred litters.
>When a client comes in saying they want to breed they should give out the info on health testing, might put a lot of casual people >off.
>Half of them have no idea how to arrange eye tests, or who to refer you to, and Hip Scoring is pretty hit and miss with the average >vet practise.
>Why don't they have the BVA health scheme literature up?.
>What about posters about Alizin for mismating?
>As for trying to get premates arranged, forget it.

I couldn't agree more with you.  I cannot understand many vets attitudes on many areas of breeding, but why they cannot recommend health tests is beyond me.  I don't expect a vet to know all health tests required for all different breeds, but then I don't expect a vet (or my doctor come to that) to automatically know all drugs available and what their side effects are.  That's why they have Mimms and other reference manuals to look them up.  Why can they not have at least a list of the basic tests recommended by the KC to refer to?   And completely agree with you about Alizin.

My vet recommended that a client not breed from her bitch as hips were uneven plus temperament was an issue - did she take any notice, of course not!

I must work in a fairly 'ok' practice I think! We have a few clients who breed so everyone is fairly experienced in the details of premate testing and relaxin as well as CHV vaccines.
We do hip and elbow score and give clients thinking about breeding all the necessary BVA literature.
We don't encourage byb's or people breeding 'because their bitch should have a litter before being spayed' without relevant health tests. Most of our vets are happy to acknowledge that breeders can teach them a lot about breeding but will offer advice when asked.

that is encouraging.

> I must work in a fairly 'ok' practice

I'm the client of an Ok practice too. My vet really takes on board what I'm trying to do in terms of health testing and breeding plans, she respects my opinion and bends over backwards for me because I need things done for research etc....but..

She never wants to own a purebred dog, only gets rescue mongrels and advises her clients to do the same.

Her opinion is formed from a broad cross section of dogs in the area, her personal experience and her disappointment at what she sees as a parade of problem purebreds.

From what I've seen around my area, I can see her point. Yellowish orangy Westies, hop and skip Yorkies and stiff clunky Labs and Goldens abound.

I think she is just speaking as she finds.