Hi
I would like to try doing Obedience work but want a smallish dog about 50cm in height......I don't want a collie  not that I have any thing against them just not what I want ....any ideas please 

Miniature Poodle? Great breed for obedience!

I second that.

What about a Papillon- Many of these do well in obedience and agility- Highly intelligent little dogs- 8- 11 inches not sure what that is in cms

Paps are just 20 to 28 cms which is why I didn't suggest them -a lot smaller than 50. :)

Another suggestion: Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever.

Great wee dogs though - double the size in personality!!!

> Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever

I was thinking the same thing. I spoke to someone at a show with them as they had always fascinated me and knew very little about them. Was told they are as mad as a collie with a gundog brain :-)

Sheltie

Thanks for the replies Sheltie and Papillon a little to small..... though I know poodles are great dogs the coats put me off I really want a coat that I don't have to do much with ( I know lazy or what )
But have just googled the...... Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever....wow  I think this is the sort of dog that I was thinking about I will do more reading about them...... did see a programme on sky called  Extraordinary Breeders and a lady was working her dogs on a duck shoot I liked what I saw but didn't think they would be interested in Obedience work I'm so glad I asked this question      

My first thought was the Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever as well - probably slightly biased though as I have 3 of them ;-)

There are several working in obedience at the moment, the highest they've got so far is to class B. Several also have done very well in agility, working trials and flyball.

Low maintenance, fab temperaments, gorgeous to look at, great size (not too big, not too small) I could go on :-D

Best to go through either of the breed clubs when looking for a puppy though as there are some breeders that don't do all of the health tests that they should :-(

You don't mention where you live but there is a training weekend for the breed near the New Forest in a few weeks time, I'm sure you'd be very welcome to go along and watch if you were interested.

There is a Nova Scotia working obedience at the classes I go to. :) As in competitive obedience, not just pet stuff.

Tollers are a great idea, but if you are thinking about them why not consider a Kooikerhondje as well?  A breed thats SO eager to learn and please, as with Tollers the brains and agility of a Border Collie, but a little more grounded.  As a breed they have to work in silence, and so although they obey verbal commands, they are naturally quicker to hand signals and are always watching for them.  Possibly a plus with obedience?  Not sure as I dont compete in obedience.
A fun loving social breed, but I wouldn't place one with a first time owner as you have to know how to socialise properly.

Dog Breeder Extraordinary is now being shown on sky channel 244..Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever... must be fate

Kooikerhondjes yes googled them and they sound good... but did keep noticing that the write ups kept mentioning not good with children so would really have to read and talk to people first if I decide thats the breed for me
Thanks for the reply

What about a Britanny? They are my new favorite breed!

shelties  are great for obedience.

We have a young Toller, who is my 10yr old sons dog.  She is fab, he works her in obedience and has recently started agility with her, he also shows her in YKC classes.  I have been smitten with this breed, she takes everything in her stride and just wants to please all of the time.  The only downside that we have found is that she measured large for agility, we had hoped that she would come into midi for competitions.  We all love her to bits.

Dont know where you got not good with children for Kooikers, I have been in the breed since day 1 in England and so have seen a fair few of them!  All are fantastic with children, I used to lose my old Kooiker on walks- she always ran to the kids playground to see if there were any little girls there to cuddle!  And my current has never had any contact with small children, put if we meet any on walks, or meet potential new owners at shows she will always plonk herself in the childs lap before the adult.  As a breed they will be sharp with other dogs if not socialised properly at a young age and continued on until adulthood, this is why I wouldn't recommend to a first time owner.  However with the correct upbringing will want to play with all they meet.  At my local beach you sometimes get up to 15 dogs playing together at one time, all strangers and of all sizes, you can bet your house that mine will be in the middle!  I assume if you are planning on doing obedience you will start doing puppy classes, and so socialisation shouldn't be an issue.

PM me if you want to know anything about the breed, (or meet one) although I wont take anything away from Tollers, they are a great breed as well!

Just dont want people to think Kooikers aren't good with children as nothing is further from the truth!

Must admit I'd be tempted by both breeds if I ever upsized, they are gorgeous! I imagine you will have a longish wait whichever you go with!

Kooikerhondjes can also be a bit funny with other dogs.  My breed are good as well but need a special kind of owner and you also need to go to a good breeder.  The Spanish Water Dog Club have a special weekend next week in Ross-On-Wye where you would be most welcomed.

Not these days, if you research the breed and show wanting a pup isn't a passing whim the waiting list isn't to long.  Longer in Kooikers for a show pup as normally only two thirds of a litter are marked well enough for the show ring, but mismarks still make great agiltiy/obedience/PAT dogs.
I've had cavs in the past, and as much as I've loved/love my girls, I wouldn't go back!

I think Tollers are gorgeous as well-they're one of my "breeds to have before I die!"
This one is a stunning heelwork to music dog-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icwxr6lJtKo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRhKsrUCbZ0&feature=related

As mentioned before Kooikers have to be socialised properly or they will be funny with other dogs.  However at shows you will mainly come across stud dogs who obviously are more highly strung and dont give a balanced picture of the breed.  I own bitches who will always welcome a game from unknown dogs, and friends have equally friendly males.
Anyway, off topic!  I'm sure any medium sized spaniel, small breed retriever, Sheltie or Australian Shepherd will suit you down to the ground.  Good luck with the search!

You'd have fun with one of mine, LOL  Learn very easily, but need to see the point, and will often have their own take on exercises.

My friends now 11 year old boy and a hot day doing stays commando crawled under the shade of the score board.

That size is pretty common so you should find loads of breeds.

It's quite funny that you think of 50cm as a small breed (matter of perception) as I have variously seen mien as listed as Medium and large and they are ideally 49cm for bitches and 52cm for dogs (that is to the withers of course).

> It's quite funny that you think of 50cm as a small breed (matter of perception) as I have variously seen mien as listed as Medium and large and they are ideally 49cm for bitches and 52cm for dogs (that is to the withers of course).

I know what you mean.... mine is 24" TTS and people always think of him as a BIG dog, but to me he isn't... tall yes, but not big in the weight sense, and he does fold up small! I guess we get used to whatever we have, and I always wanted a proper sized dog; not huge or massive but a decent height and athletic with it.

I am liking the Kooikers, they seem like an interesting breed.... not a true spaniel and versatile. Have not met one yet... are they as energetic as Tollers? As noisy?

> Dont know where you got not good with children

It is very important to meet breeds and make up your won mind about character.  Perceptions vary based on your expectations and previous experiences/bias.

Someone was posting on a UK breed list about how awful some of the descriptions of our breed were:
Quote:
"In my local shopping centre today I browsed the books whilst waiting for my son to buy his magazine.  I looked at 2 books about choosing a dog and looked up Elkhounds.  They were listed as Elkhounds, not Norwegian.., one said they were not good with children and small animals, none said they were used for hunting moose [elk being mentioned in both books], they were not for the novice owner, can be difficult with other dogs - especially same sex, needed daily grooming - moulting all year, are noisy [yes I know they can be], need 1 hour plus walk per day; as well as considerable time off lead daily; are difficult to train....  these are just a few of the points I remember.  No wonder they are not very popular!!!  "

I couldn't wish for a better family dog, many owners have cats and livestock of all types which the dogs are great with, and have always found them sociable with their own species (properly socialised of course), though can look after themselves, so unless the writer considers the ideal dog to be servile and submissive, they got it very wrong.

Such bad descriptions don't do a lot of harm when referencing popular breeds as most people will have met lots of examples, but when describing uncommon breeds it can be quite damning.

MsTemeraire, interesting is certainly a good word to describe Kooikers!  I always describe them as a smaller version of a Border Collie, they have the same brains, speed and agility, but in my opinion make better house dogs.  Nothing at all against BC, I love them and train a couple for my friend, its just Kooikers are happy with a walk and a cuddle a day and a weekly activity to use their brains, unlike the BC who tend to need more constant stimulation.  They very much want to be lap dogs, and if they cant sit on you they will sit next to you and lean!  You will find a gang of us at every champ show that offers us classes, and we are dotted all over the country so as long as the person doesn't have pups you will always find someone willing to invite you round for a cuppa to meet and talk about them.  Generally they are a silent breed, only barking if someone knocks on the door/approaches their car (if they are in it), but this is what they were breed to do and fameously saved William of Orange's life at night during battle this way.  I however currently have a dud who enjoys the sound of her own voice!  And versatile- we currently have Kooikers that show, do agility, heelwork to music, work in decoys, work on shoots, are PAT dogs, prevent a bite dogs, one who is going through training to be a diabeties alert dog to his 7 yr old owner, and some that dont do all the extras, but are much loved members of the family.

Brainless you are right, it takes just one bad review, or one bad dog to ruin the perception of a breed.  We have one male who goes to shows who is not dog friendly who is giving the wrong impression of the breed.  A couple of males who have been used at stud may also not be welcoming to other male dogs when their bitches at home come into season, but it soon passes when the season goes.  The owners are aware of it, and so keep them away from others during these weeks.  I have not seen a problem with any of the bitches.  The only way to really get the full idea of a breed is to go to someones house, actually meet the breed and join them on a walk.

Henrieke I have to say that it is nothing to do with any recent dogs at shows but it was one of the first thing that many owners of the breed said to me re the breed and other dogs.  Maybe things have changed in recent generations?

Oh definately since pet passports replaced quarrentine.  They will be sharp with other dogs if not socialised properly for a full year, which just cant happen in quarrentine.  Before this I wouldn't recommend the breed to anyone but the most experienced.  I would still suggest that importing should only be done by those who know the breed, or have lots of experience with more willfull breeds as you have no control of how the dog is raised for the first 10 months.  And temperments have been concentrated on with recent breeding.