Hello all I have a year 3 old girl who we mated to a fab stud from a very good show kennel, this is the first time we have used him. (she was mated on her last season but sadly no patter of tiny paws). We are Now 2 weeks and 1 day from the first mating and 2 weeks tomorrow from the second, We had her swabed for infection which cam back clear and also swabed for the right time for mating. AI was used on both occasions and I have everything crossed this is a much wanted and waited for litter. I would just like to pick all your brains on early signs of pregnacy, I will be getting he scanned like I did last time but just wondering if I could look out for anything in the mean time. (I am passing the floor why does time drag while we are waiting) I feel like i have IVF and i'm waiting to find out if it has worked. The one thing i have noticed today is a creamy, white milky type discarge could I be just wishing to hard ?
Take care all hope the two legged are enjoying the weather and the four legged have found some nice cool shade x x x

>AI was used on both occasions

I assume this is from an overseas (or deceased) stud dog?

No the stud is in Englad, it is very comon in our breed to do AI.

I'm surprised the KC give permission. After all, their own web page says "*The General Committee will not normally accept an application to register an AI litter if the donor male is alive and domiciled in the United Kingdom, with one exception namely that Irish Wolfhounds of 8.5 years or older and domiciled in the UK can be used as donors in AI.

Do you fulfill this criteria ?

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/478

Diane

well i know loads who only do natural matings ourselves included.
No wonder this breed is suffering when people wont even let them breed naturally.

> people wont even let them breed naturally

It's more likely that they cant breed naturally.

Aren't we humans clever :-(

I'm so sorry i've upset you all, I was only after advice, Like I said I went to a breeder (who also does well in the show ring) with over 20 years with this breed who said this is they was she does it and has done it. As I have only been with this breed for a short time compaired to her, I took her advice like we all must have done when we started out. Rather than be like you all are why cant you talk to me and explain why you dont like it or are not happy.  When you start out (which we all have done) it is a learning curve.
Once again sorry to upset anyone, I didnt know I was doning aything wrong as I see a lot of kennels offer chilled sperm etc.

It's not your fault, pompeypride; you've been misled by the stud dog owner who should be aware of the strictness of the KC regulations regarding AI. It's a procedure that should never be used as a matter of routine; a breed that can't mate or whelp naturally is doomed, and this is what the rules are designed to prevent.

It might be worth contacting the KC to find out where you stand.

I like others who have posted a reply am dismayed that you have used AI. The creamy discharge may well indicate a pregnancy, only time will tell.
However I find the use of AI disturbing. In this day and age with so much talk of "Fit for function" being bandied around how can it be right to use AI on a bitch when the dog and bitch are both geographically able to get together? and why? surley you would not wish to pass on to your pups the inability to mate normally? We are trying to produce fit healthy stock and in my opinion (For what it is worth)  if dog and bitch cannot mate for whatever reason then maybe you should listen to nature and accept that there is a problem. This is (I am having a guess at the breed going from you picture) a breed not without it's critics regarding health and conformation so surely breeders should be doing everything in thier power to improve on and use the best healthiest and most "fit for function" stock available.
As you state you are new to the breed. How nice to see new people taking an interest in dogs, However I think maybe you should do some more reserch into the breed and into health , then you wil be able to make your own choises as to how you decide to do things in the future to help the success of your choosen breed. As stated go onto the KC website and read the rules about using AI. Good luck with your litter if she proves to be in pup.
Aileen

Does she have to say that AI was used.

> Does she have to say that AI was used.

Yes,  and so does the stud owner when signing the registration form... apart from that.. its pretty public knowledge now..

I do feel for the OP.. taking advice from a mentor is something we all advise.. unfortunately, some breeders are not those who we would wish to take advice from.. Ideally, talk to many people in your breed, you will get a wide range of opinions, and many will conflict with others.. common sense should tell you which to be guided by and those to give a wide berth to..

The deed is done now.. I do hope that if your girl is pregnant, that all goes well

Thank you Merlot for you reply, You say I should have done more home work, could you please tell me what more you would advice please, I read lots of books, website and talked to lots of people before buying my pup and took 6 months to find a breeder who I liked and felt was right. On lots of website the advitise that they offer frozen or chilled sperm but know where does it say that this is a problem that you need to look into and check. So when and only when my girl had 3 seasons and was to me and my vet of good health etc (the reason for a litter is that I wish to keep one and try showing as I have meet a lot of lovely friendly people and would love to give it a go) did I decide to look into finding a stud for her the first time sadly this was not to be so due to the stud dog moving on I looked into another stud dog for her, after 3 months of looking emailing and chatting I found a nice lady who Like I say has been with our breed for 20year and is well known in the show world so to me this ticked all the right boxes for girl. I took Milly along and she was tested and we were to go back on the set day, the lady did tell me she use AI due to the weight of her boy and that, that is the only way she does her stud, (he is very well know and is dad to a lot of litters) At what point do you think alarm bells should have rung? Us humans use AI wether its is needed or a DIY job if you know what I mean. Now where in the countles books I have read or websites I visited (when they offer chilled or frozen) does it tell you special rules come into play and that you have to consult the KC, I use the KC alot for advice but not once thought to type in AI as I never belived it was a problem.
I know alot of you have veiws on my breed, but I dont feel anyone should judge one breed over another all have good and bad points and have reasons for liking one more than another but they are our own views and we should not look down on anyone who may prefure a differant breed to use, as I say to my children if we were all the same life would be boring.
Take care all

I am not going to get into the AI debate as that was your choice.
But my girls always get more of a discharge when they are in whelp.  Their teats also get a bit pinker than usual but that's about it till about 5 weeks.  My girls are always very active and that doesn't change till the last week and same goes for eating.  I wish they had prenancy indicators built in too.lol.  Wouldn't it make life so much easier?

Here here I so wish I could do a pregnancy test on her now, time is going so slow.

Sadly I think alarm bells should have rung when she said he's produced lots of litters!  I don't know whether you will now be truthful to the KC, but you need to have a chat with the stud dog owner and see how she has been able to only do AI when it's not fully accepted in this country.

I do feel for pompeypride  , we all have to start somewhere  its just unfortunate the way its turned out , i think most of us recognise that this practice goes on underground , but i would certainly ask the stud owner  how she has managed to side step the KC

>you need to have a chat with the stud dog owner and see how she has been able to only do AI when it's not fully accepted in this country.

It's certainly the fault of the stud dog owner for not being honest with poor pompeypride (or the KC).

No=ones judging your breed just the methods which aren't accepted in the UK without special permission under special circumstances.

oh well this is all a learning curve, and at least I know not to go back to her if my girl is not in pup.
Thank you all for letting me know and I will be contacting the stud owner and the KC.

>I know alot of you have veiws on my breed, but I dont feel anyone should judge one breed over another all have good and bad points and have reasons for liking one more than another but they are our own views and we should not look down on anyone who may prefure a differant breed to use

I love your breed - all the ones I've met have been delightful characters, so it's not that anyone has a problem with the breed, or with you It's the stud dog owner we're annoyed with, for leading you up the garden path and possibly being a serial fraudster of registration documents.

I hope the kc will let you register the litter when you explain. What a shame- I didn't know this either

I have  cut and pasted this from the KC site for your information:-
Artificial Insemination (AI)
07-Aug-06

Prior approval is not necessary to register a litter produced by AI provided that all of the following comply, and that the AI involves non surgical insemination:-

Requirements for registration following AI

*All litters produced by AI will be subject to existing Kennel Club registration regulations.
*The donor dog must have produced at least one registered litter naturally.
*The General Committee will not normally accept an application to register an AI litter if the donor male is alive and domiciled in the United Kingdom, with one exception namely that Irish Wolfhounds of 8.5 years or older and domiciled in the UK can be used as donors in AI.
*Maiden bitches - Litters produced by AI from bitches that have not previously produced a registered litter naturally may now be registered, but the Kennel Club will not register a litter produced by AI from one of her female progeny, unless the said progeny has already produced at least one registered litter naturally.
If none of these conditions is breached, then the owner need only ensure that the AI form is completed and submitted along with the litter application form (form 1) at the time of registration.

If however the AI application does not satisfy all of these requirements, then individual cases will have to be made and registration will be at the discretion of the Kennel Club General Committee. If the submission involves the use of surgical insemination, the case must be accompanied by a declaration from a veterinary surgeon as to why this particular procedure is/was necessary.

Hope it helps with your dilema.
You ask what more I think you could have done. I feel it may have been benificial to have joined a breed club (You may have done obviously) you could then ask a variety of breeders for their opinions. I would have questioned the need for AI. Maybe I have had a few more years with dogs that you but I would question the need to perform a natural function of a dog because he was unable to do it himself. The excuse that he is too heavy is a strange one...too heavy for who? your bitch? or his ability. If he is so much bigger than your bitch then you may find you have whelping problems. I admit these are questions that I would ask myself but I have many years expierience with dogs and appreciate you may not. To me it would be ringing allarm bells. In a breed that has a high incidence of C-Sect births I would not wish for a sire so big he was too heavy to mate your girl.
However this is all now imatierial as the deed is done and your now stuck in the possition of what to do next. If you are keen to persue a life in dogs and showing then tread carefuly, If this is a big breeder/shower in your breed you may step on too many toes if you come clean to the KC. You will have to check up on some pionts in order to clarify the need for AI to the KC and by doing so may reveal some underhand practices by the owner of the stud. A thin plank to walk along if you wish to show in the future.
I do not envy you your concience now. Whatever you choose to do, learn from this episode and vow to do better next time. Talk, question and above all listen to those in your breed who have expierience, Look into the health implacations of the breed and try to do all you can to produce fit healthy and free mating/whelping lines. You are just begining and no one on this forum lays blame at your door...however you now have to do all you can to become a great breeder of fantastic dogs and try fill your head with knowledge.
Good luck
Aileen

Quite.  the rules were previously even tighter.  No maiden bitch could have a litter registered from AI, and no living UK based dog.

Also if AI is used it should be recorded and an additional form used and the resulting puppies will have (by AI) on their registrations so that it is obviously how they were conceived.

Basically if people are using AI and not telling the Kennel club they are cheating/making fraudulent statements.

As has been said, it is sad enough that C sections have become routine some breeds, and now even the ability to procreate naturally is being eroded.

For anyone else reading this thread.  If your considering breeding Kennel club registered stock, it is a good idea to read the breeding articles and rules on the kennel club website, or ask them to be sent to you to avoid problems.

Just curious, because I've heard a lot of bulldog breeders say that AI is commonly used, but never got an answer.

Does it get put down as AI and permission sought?  Does the KC make special allowances for a breed that is hard to mate naturally? or is it just put down as a natural mating?

Anonomous answers are fine ;-)

Therein lies a question??
I suspect that good carefull breeders avoid it at all costs and as to those who do it all the time...well who knows if they admit to it to the KC. Sorry do I sound sceptical? Thas is because I am!!
Aileen

I know that it goes on and sadly some people arent even told till they take the bitch to be mated so sadly some dont have the
time to choose another dog.
I dont think permission is sought,there are no special allowances for bulldogs and rightly so.
Yes they need help but then so do other breeds.
But I dont think there is real need for Ai and certainly NEVER those mating cradles.

Thank you for all your replys, I must admit i've had a very mad night thinking about all this and what has been said. After hoping so much for the patter of tiny paws, I now am hoping she has not taken then all the desicion is out of my hands. :-(. I am feeling VERY angry that I have been lead up the garden path. I do know that there have been some litters advertised on her with the sire I have used, I would loved to know what they have done. My husband and myself have thought it would be best if we do have pups to just find them pet homes where the matter of K.C. would not be a problem. I was just hoping to have chance to pick a nice looking pup with good Breeding standered to try and show with. but as i cant register them I will have to hope she can have another litter ether next season if she has not taken or in a year or so's time.

Hi Pompeypride
I feel so sorry for what has happened to you in these curcumstances. Your disision on what to do next is for you and you alone to make. I am sure you will do what is best for your bitch. (Just bear in mind it is possible to have the litter terminated and to mate agian next season with some valuble information, I am not trying to influence you just letting you know it is a possibility)
The sign of a good breeder is to learn by your expieriences and hopefully you will have done this. Look to the future and plan to improve next time. We are all still learning in the world of dogs and never listen to someone who claims to know it all...non of us do. No matter how long we have been involved in the game we are (Or should be) still learning.
I am sure you now wish to do all in your power to improve the health and breeding qualities of your choosen breed, now you have this information your next litter can be planned with a lot more fore thought.(Not saying you did not care but I think you have been badly misled by someone who should know better)
There are in the world of dogs plenty of people who flount the rules and the health implacations within their breed in order to produce pups from parents who are less than perfect mates. They do it for all kinds of reasons. There are many breeds who because of thier build etc.. are not the best breeding prospects, but are still produced as there will always be a market for them. Many breeds can be kept but improved on and if we are true to our beliefs we should do just that.
Think how wonderfull it would be to be able to say that your stock is able to procreate without the need for human interferance. It will take time and effort but the end result will be a credit to you.
The time has now come within the world of pedigree dogs to expose some of the bad practices and to show the world that KC registered breeds are fit and healthy and able to perform thier natural functions without the need for human manipulation.
All walks of life have thier bad eggs...now is your time to make sure you do not add to them. I have no doubt at all that at some time each and every one of us on this forum has made a less than perfect judgement call..it's how we learn. You are not alone.
Good luck in your future breeding plans. let us hope you can become a breeder with a great reputation.
Aileen

First class post Aileen.

there is a test to confirm pregnancy call witness rilexin  it is a blood test, you could ask your vet , not sure how much it would be but at least you would know

Hi...I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation. You say you found a nice Breeder...but it's not the Breeder you should be looking at, it's the Stud Dog. Just cos she's a nice Breeder, doesn't mean her stud dog will suit your bitch. Just my humble opinion :)