hi everyone, i didnt want to post this but i feel im forced too. ive been planning a litter for the past year and everything was going to plan just got to buy equipment you know how it is. i have two breeders to mentor me one of 60yrs experience and one of 30yrs they have been fantastic. i arranged to use one of their boys with my girl but for various reasons it has fallen through.
there is a shortage of studs in my breed they have suggested i should use my girls half brother as he is far better and to improve on heads etc (they share the same sire).  my breeders have said they have looked into it and reassured me its ok but im not so sure. they also share the same grandmother but no other close matings previously. i have written a dummy pedigree and it looks so close, i have put so much time researching and money into this and im feeling dissapointed and whether to bother at all. how does this go down with puppy buyers? would that leave a problem breeding in the future from a puppy i wish to keep? what if something goes wrong? what if? im worried sick about this i dont know what to do.

anne

Personally I would listen to your mentors as they have the experience and should know the lines well. I am new to one of my breeds, and my mentor there has strongly recommended my next litter be a half brother to half sister mating as those two dogs will go together the best, so I will take her advice.

Absolutely no substitute for experience fushang and you are very lucky to have such mentors that know the breed and pedigrees so well. With their knowledge built up over the years they would not have proposed a mating if they thought there would be problems in store for you. Absolutely nothing wrong with a half brother/sister mating as long as there is no doubling up on serious faults or health issues. By the time you consider mating any puppy you might keep there is plenty of time to find outcross blood for the next generation.

However if you are feeling disappointed imagine how your mentors feel having given their time and consideration to your problem and you are not convinced they have given good advice. Maybe you need to talk it over with them in more depth. It can only help you learn more for the future.

thats the problem, i know they are right in what they are saying and we had a deep discussion, its the fact they share the same granmother aswell that i have a problem with, i wasnt sure it could be done twice. i forgot to ask them that. they have no serious faults or health issues...well.. the dog is awaiting one more result that should come back this week but it should be clear. another problem is they will both be maiden and one breeder has a back up stud just incase. thankyou you both for your replies feeling a bit better about it

I totally understand your worries Fushang.  I myself am new to breeding as well and am in the process of having my first litter (although she's decided to skip her season this spring/ summer so far as I think she knows what i had planned).  I'm sure this is down to my in-experience but I want my dogs pedigree to have as few corss overs as possible.  I am from a breed with less than 90 puppies a year registered and so I feel very strongly that the more diverse the pedigree the better as it will bring in fresh blood.  I have spoken to a lot of people who have mated close relatives and had a loot of cross overs in order to get the desired head or bone structure and I think it really depends on what is most important to you.

You have said all the dogs involved are completely healthy and I'm guessing their all good examples of their breed - you've mentioned they have a better head shape than yours and that is something you would like to improve.  At the end of the day you have to go with what you feel is right personally I would prefer not to buy a puppy that is not too closely bred but that is probably down to my inexperience of breeding as many breeders do it all the time and often seem to prefer to breed closely when they are trying to make a spcecific improvement. 

Your mentors know their lines and I can't imagine that they would ever want to lead you into problems or have un-healthy puppies so I would be inclined to trust them but you really should speka to them about your worries with regards to close line breeding - for one generation I don't think you are going to have any issues but obviously you'd want to try and avoid it if you were breeding off a puppy from that litter.

What Ive learnt so far is that ultimately take advice from as many people as possible trust your mentors more than your vets but you have to balance everything you have heard in your own head and with your own concience

oh and I love the advice on this website - jsut wanted to let you know that you weren't alone in worrying about it  best of luck :)

> how does this go down with puppy buyers?

Don't take this the wrong way but surely you are breeding for yourself, the ring and the improvement of the breed. Way down that long list somewhere may appear puppy buyers should you have extra pups that neither you, the stud dog owner or other exhibitors wish to have to further their lines/ breeding?

I would concentrate on getting it right and deal with any extra puppies if and when you have any.

Just my own view

I know only too well how it is agonising to ponder over a close breeding before the mating when the options are so limited. In such a situation an experienced breeder will have developed a "gut feeling" for when it is right or wrong to go ahead. Any little niggles on health, temperament etc will loom up in their mind and stop them going ahead.

When you have made your decision and understand why you made it if your puppy purchasers ask about the close pedigree you will be able to fully inform them as to why you did that mating. Don't worry in advance about both proposed parents being maidens. Good luck and you are going to make a great breeder because you care so much.

I'm sure this is down to my in-experience but I want my dogs pedigree to have as few corss overs as possible. 

This is not how you get good dogs though. Too MUCH outcrossing is not a good thing. We have around 120 pups registered in my breed per year now, BUT out of them only around 30 are showlines (rest working lines, and the two hardly ever meet), so I am well used to  the problem of being able to find dogs that aren't extremely closely related, and every now and then we all outcross by using imports or going abroad, but I'd still much rather linebreed than use outcrosses all the time. For a start you never know what you will get.

My post is going to be completely different to the majority.

I have been breeding about 30 years my chosen breed and have bred a number of champions in this breed here and abroad.   However, when I advise new breeders, I never recommend too close a breeding, I think that for a first litter health has to come first, it is okay for someone like myself if it goes wrong, as I can and would pick up the pieces.   But breeding is such a stressful time anyway that the newcomer needs in the first instance to make sure that all the puppies that are to be sold are 'fit for function; fit for life'; especially in this day and age, our breed is a 'head breed' but it must never take precedence over functionality, and the majority of judges both all rounder and specialists cannot tell the difference anyway.   You can still line-breed without mating half brother to half sister, you have to remember that although both parents may be fully health tested and that there is not any obvious health condition (that you can see), and also remember that some health conditions do not come to the fore until a dog is  older, i.e. hypothyroidism; it is a fact that all dogs carry deleterious genes, it is only by genetic diversity that you can try to avoid doubling up on any of these conditions, and there are many; but again even this does not always work.   Your are so lucky to have mentors but you need to ask them which conditions are in the breed and what is the percentage risk of you doubling up with this planned mating.   When you have that information to hand, you can sit down and make an informed decision.

I think that you have already answered your own question with:

i have put so much time researching and money into this and im feeling dissapointed and whether to bother at all. how does this go down with puppy buyers? would that leave a problem breeding in the future from a puppy i wish to keep? what if something goes wrong? what if? im worried sick about this i dont know what to do".>

There is never any guarantee, whichever way you choose to go, and even if you ask the stud dog owner all the relevant questions, some questions never seem to receive the correct answer!!!!!!!!!

Best of luck

>

Personally, I wouldn't dream of doing such a close breeding - regardless of how typey any resulting puppies may turn out ... I thought times were changing... obviously not.
I fully understand why someone may advise close line breeding, but it is not something I would ever consider (however tempting it may seem !).
Before anyone tries to bite my head off, this is only my opinion (and it is not worth very much at that !) :-)

thanks for all your replies i will question the breeder if my bitch more.

thanks anne:)

Cavlover it's NOT just a question of keeping breed type with linebreeding, health very much comes into it as well!

I, too , found myself in this dilemna earlier this year. I was advised by my mentor to go ahead with a half brother/ sister mating. I had never done this before. They are both lovely examples of my breed and after much consideration I went ahead with it. I am so glad I did, I got a lovely bich, who I kept.All during the pregnancy though, being a relative newcomer to breeding I worried myself sick, in case anything went wrong. I am glad though that I listened to the voice of experience.

This is the closest I would go especially if the two individuals are not themselves tightly line bred.

My youngest champion bitch is the result of a half brother sister mating on the dams side. 

The double grandmother is the fourth generation of my ownership/breeding.

The sires of the  two that I mated were as unrelated as it was possible to be, one bing a US import the other Norwegian.

I had of course the advantage of owning the one I was close breeding to.  She had had 3 healthy quality litters, and some of these had themselves been bred from with no issues.  I also had lived with the preceding 3 generations and bred from them.

So if you can research the sire of your bitch, (how much can you trust they will tell you of the bad things he has produced as well as the good) are you happy with the health of him and his ancestors and descendants then go for it, you are likely to set type.  But you will equally set undesirable traits.

Also it will seriously limit where you go with the offspring.  This is the case with my girl, so *I am having to do an expensive out cross, and travel abroad with her for a mate.

> All during the pregnancy though, being a relative newcomer to breeding I worried myself sick, in case anything went wrong. I am glad though that I listened to the voice of experience.

I have to say that my half brother sister pups were really good birth weights, gained exceptionally well, and were very forward and developed puppy skills particularly well, so no sign of the breeding depression symptoms we are warned against, such as mewling unthrifty weak pups, and small litter size (there were 7).

I have to say though that at the time of the mating the individual I was doubling on was a healthy 9 year old in peak health.

No doubt we will all see things differently but my advice to a beginner would be the opposite to dogsdinner. I would advise to start with a line bred litter simply because it is easier to know what is in the pedigree and so gain a sound foundation with regard to knowledge.

"it is only by genetic diversity that you can try to avoid doubling up on any of these conditions" It is because of these genetic diversities in outcrosses I want to avoid new bloodlines as much as possible. These genetic diversities are unlikely to be known to me so I have more chance on doubling up on unknown problems when the whole pedigree is put in a bran tub and I have no control what is pulled out. Just because a pedigree is completely open it does not mean several of the dogs in that pedigree do not suffer from the same deleterious condition.

A strongly linebred litter can be totally healthy and a litter with totally open pedigree can be a disaster healthwise, or the opposite may apply. It's all a case of knowing the bloodlines. An experienced breeder who has seen and knows the faults and virtues of every dog in a five generation pedigree of a proposed litter is worth their weight in gold to a new breeder.

I have never had anything unexpected happen in a closely line bred litter because I knew the odds. From personal experience I agree totally with MarianneB in that " Too MUCH outcrossing is not a good thing" She is also correct that health in a line can be maintained by line breeding. Then these known healthy linebred dogs can be outcrossed with more confidence because the risk of the outcross blood bringing forward something nasty is lessened.

BTW - good posts Brainless - agree with what you have written and your findings.

>I have to say though that at the time of the mating the individual I was doubling on was a healthy 9 year old in peak health.

That'sthe important point - close linebreeding to an excellent, healthy, longlived individual will produce healthier puppies than outcrossing unhealthy dogs.

I did not say not to linebreed,:) I said that for a beginner I would not advise half brother to half sister mating.  In fact, our Breed Club's COE of ethics states:
"
Members should not mate siblings, half siblings, mother to son or father to daughter".

I have to take health issues very seriously as I am involved heavily with it.   Since joining this forum I have seen numerous posts on skin problems, digestive problems (food allergies).    It is believed that some of these may well be due to auto-immune conditions, and that these can be caused by lack of genetic diversity.   It is devastating for anyone when you breed a litter and some die, but it is even worse when as a newcomer, you sell apparently healthy pups and they then go on to develop disease or a condition that renders them unfit for the purpose that they were bred for, and their owners have a lifetime of expensive vet bills and food bills.

I did not say that Just because a pedigree is completely open it does not mean several of the dogs in that pedigree do not suffer from the same deleterious condition.   However, you would stand less of a chance of doubling up on the same deleterious genes.

Our breeds most famous dog, BIS Crufts 1980 did not have any ancestor in the first 3 generations the same - further back than that he was line bred.

The Kennel Club will be launching their new programme at the end of the year Mate Select, see link below:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=2947

I am not against linebreeding, indeed I have line bred all my litters, but not so close as half brother to half sister.

My most successful litter:   was linebred to the sires sire, which was also the dams g/sire.

Even the most experienced breeder can get it wrong, and do not know that something deleterious is there until they double up on that fault whatever it may be.   It is not just a case of having all the health tests done, but knowing the health status of the dogs back in the pedigree, and also being able to picture said dog/bitch in your mind.

I knew that my post would be contentious, but health nowadays has to be of a high priority.  All dogs that are born should be entitled to a healthy, long lived life.

My boy was half brother to half sister, as were 2 of his grandparents. Yes he did get the breed heart problem, but I still feel this was bad luck, all the others in the litter are living and the ones I know of personally do not have heart murmurs, and the breeder had never had a problem before his father got it (after producing this litter of course). If your experienced mentors are saying there should not be health problems, I would believe them. On the other hand, it's all very well saying you are breeding for yourself and for the furthering of the breed, but in these days I would not do such a close mating unless he is literally the only dog in the country that you can get to. You do need to sell the rest of the puppies, and Joe Public is very much against close matings these days, they will not be won over by your saying 'my experienced friends said it was ok'.

For me as I'm sure most breeders health, temperment and functionality always will come first (whats the point of a prize winning dog that has anger issues and is riddled with health problems).  We have a 8yr old bitch now who is from a top show line and since the age of 2 has had 5 cancerous lumps removed, hyperthyroidism, HD, allergic reactions that have meant all her hair has fallen out and she has been completely bald, constant phantom pregnancies followed by a womb infection and had arthritus aged 5 - her pedigree had a lot of close line breeding in it and I am not blaming this at all because we all know that some dogs just aren't lucky with their health.  I did contact the breeder just to let her know as if a puppy I bred had issues like these I would want to know just so that i could contact other puppy owners and see how their dogs have faired. 

I can't say in-breeding has caused these issues and obviously we never even dreamt of breeding off her after her first lump appeared, but when their is a choice of out crossing to healthy dogs that are of an equal standard and people choose not to do it because their friend owns the stud or they already have it at home and it will be cheaper thats when I start to question it.

I don't think any breeder would ever willingly sacrifice health for looks and as I say I am very new to all this but I think everyone has to go with their own gut instinct and if over time you develop a greater understanding then thats great but for now I'm trying to keep to as few cross overs as possible - although I have to say I'm extremely lucky as the standard of stud I have been allowed to use is exceptionally high and only has one cross over 4 generations back :) If I was in a different situation I don't know what I'd do but I'm very interested to read everyone elses thoughts.

To Marianne,

I guess I am looking at wider picture here re health. I am of the belief that many inherited breed related conditions have come about due to generations of close line breeding... obviously way back, when a breed was being established there was no other way... but now we have a choice. I would rather outcross to a line of same/similar type than closely line breed - obviously knowledge of that line you outcross too is imperative.

Anyway, I do understand what you are saying, but I would just be concerned that whilst in the short term it may be good for health and type to closely line breed, in the long term it may have wider (health) implications for the breed.
That said, I still have lots to learn and have an open mind, particularly when it comes to taking advice from experienced and clearly knowlegeable breeders. :-)

> My most successful litter:   was line bred to the sires sire, which was also the dams g/sire.
>

That is a half Uncle to niece mating, and one I have found to be very successful and is usually as close as I like to go.  Half brother to half sister is the closest I would go and only if there was not other close breeding.

I think it would be very useful as it can be complicated to work out, if the Kennel Club set up an on-line  trial pedigree facility so that you can check inbreeding coefficients, as some matings that don't seem as close because of the amount of linebreeding before can in fact be highly inbred compared to a half brother sister on an otherwise unrelated pair.

> That is a half Uncle to niece mating, and one I have found to be very successful and is usually as close as I like to go.  Half brother to half sister is the closest I would go and only if there was not other close breeding.
>
>

You explained that so much better than myself :)  It is the closest that I have done and was particularly successful.

The new Select Mate should prove to be useful, especially if they can get health issues of each dog in the database as well, it will no doubt take time and rely on the integrity of breeders to let them have the information.  COI is difficult to work out unless you have a programme, but this will give you the EBV's, a few years ago Malcolm Willis worked out the COI (on paper) for my dogs, 1 of which looked to be heavily linebred by just looking at the pedigree, but the COI was only 6.25%, he told me that this was relatively low.   She is, at 8 years of age, fit and healthy, although did have a torsion 12 months ago, if this condition proves to have a genetic basis, if we used the KC system and put the information in on this, it should make sure that you do not double, or treble up on these conditions unknowingly - but as I have just said will rely on the owners/breeders integrity.

The mention of Malcolm Willis remined me to look back at his article entitled "Inbreeding and Pedigree Dog Breeds".

He makes some statements that will encourage a new breeder to be open minded such as "The belief that inbreeding always causes problems is too sweeping. If there is no dominance there is no depression for that trait. The critics of inbreeding rarely, if ever, tell you this" and "Inbreeding is popularly thought to be the mating of relatives. That is too general a definition"

He discusses the whole subject, including COI, in depth. Well worth reading.  http://www.dobermanns.info/info/PEDIGREE%20.htm

Yes, reading that took me back a few years, a very interesting article.   I have his books, but they are packed away will have to get digging and somewhere in one of them he gives the formula for COI, which most of breeders could work out with a pencil and paper.

There's a formula here, plus an online COI calculator:
http://www.czerwonytrop.com/inb/index.php?full=ok&lng=en

There are several packages freely available on the internet to work out COI. However this website might be of interest as it is possibe to request their software http://www.pawpeds.com/ see "About Us" on the menu. I believe it is actually based in Finland and not many dog breeds are listed yet, with only a couple of British breeds so far, but a specific breed database can be formed by anyone interested and then included on the website. Then the COI for test matings can be instantly worked out in seconds for up to ten generations. There is also an excellent library of health information being formed.

It was just that Malcolm Willis's formula was easier than Wrights' - to be honest cannot remember why, and it was relatively easy to work out, one did not need calculators or computer programmes, but will have difficulty in finding it.

Apologies should have added thanks to you both for the links.   MsTemeraire's - now that is really easy :) 

"but will have difficulty in finding it." I believe it is in his book - "Genetics of the Dog".

Not difficulty in finding the name of the book - but difficulty in finding the book because it is packed away in a tea chest up in the loft, it is too heavy for me to lift out of the loft as the chest is full of books - never one to throw anything away, but pretty useless really if I cannot use it because I am unable to gain access to it.

In my humble opinion, in certain breeds, it is suicidal for those with an open line to breed closely and i feel Cavaliers fall into that category.

I'm seeking fresh ( if fresh is the word for a breed that originated in the UK) lines from Europe, such is my worry about serious inbreeding in this breed.

Only 20% of every generation of pedigree dogs is ever bred from leaving 80% to fall by the wayside,
and then only 20% of that 20% is bred from in the next generation.
The loss of genetic variation is huge and IMO storing up problems for the future - perhaps far sighted breeders should consider this and not just look for their next big winner.

Keeping tabs on litter mates may help down the line, who knows if we are keeping the healthiest puppies in breeds where some conditions are later in onset or have no genetic test yet.

> Keeping tabs on litter mates may help down the line,

except that sadly most get neutered ;)

> I knew that my post would be contentious

But that is the very reason this forum is so popular.  It is good for people to argue their case.  And I don't mean argue in a bad way.  It is certainly enlightening to have other breeders viewpoints, and having them give sound reasoning is invaluable for newbies.

So, contentious or not, I have found this thread very readable.  :-)

You are right JeanSW - that it is good to listen to others viewpoints, it is after all how we form our ideas in the first place.

> except that sadly most get neutered

It is for that reason that I am placing my bitch puppies with friends and the dogs on a very strict contract ( if as a companion only dog) or to fellow breeders.

Who knows if and when they may be needed?

> You are right JeanSW - that it is good to listen to others viewpoints, it is after all how we form our ideas in the first place.

I agree, debate is essential.

It also throws into focus something I keep saying about advice given on a forum.... much is breed specific and it's not a case of 'one size fits all'.

Some breeds are genetically 'in trouble' and the OP may be in such a breed, others may have a huge gene pool to call on and relatively few health issues....YET.

It bears thinking about.

A big relief to hear from Toolz that certainly for my breed, I am thinking on the right wave length. Looking at the wider picture for cavaliers as oppose to your next win is indeed imperative for the future of the breed.

> I agree, debate is essential.
>
>

Yes, and it brings it to the forefront - as some do not know where to turn and ask the right questions, or whether they should ask questions and possibly rock the boat..  

You are quite right each breed has different issues that they have to prioritise, whereas in another it may well be low down on their criteria list.  And each kennel may have to prioritise different conditions in their line.

i respect everyones opinions i wouldnt of asked otherwise, i have nothing against close breedings and have learned so much more about it from posting this on here. however, after sleeping on it i dont know why i feel this but i am not going to go ahead with this mating. i think our breed is close enough as it is and yes there are problems which show up later in life. i want to look forward to a litter and to be excited like everyone else not worried sick having sleepless nights. my breeder is very understanding i knew they would be.

but wait for it....yep more problems, the back up dog (the half brothers uncle) ive arranged for november, and what as happened this evening? shes come in season! 5mths early!! shes supposed to be once a year. soooo fingers crossed lets hope hes available, will find out tommorow.

ive got a headache, think ive banged my head against a wall ??

> and to be excited like everyone else not worried sick having sleepless nights. my breeder is very understanding i knew they would be.
>

If that is how that particular mating was going to affect you, then you have made the correct decision.   It does seem that your breeder is one of the caring ones - you are really lucky to have a gem like that.   Wishing you the best of luck and look forward to hearing how it all goes.