Hi!  My beautiful bitch (toy breed) is 18 months old and has come into her 3rd season.  Today is her first bleed.  I am planning on letting her have one litter of pups before having her spade and was wondering which day would be the best to introduce her to the stud?  I have had her checked by the Vet and he is happy for her to breed, she is very healthy with no obvious problems.  Her mother gave birth naturally to a litter of 5 and had no problems whelping.  Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks.

> I have had her checked by the Vet and he is happy for her to breed

Have you had her x-rayed for hemivertebrae?

With all due respect, I think you need to learn a lot more before embarking on something as serious as breeding. I don't mean that to sound unfriendly, but as an example to ask what day a bitch should be taken to stud is a bit like asking what day you should pay your car insurance, before you have even learnt to drive. Vets are not good advisors when it comes to which dogs to breed from; they can only do a general check up  during a normal visit and none of the specialist tests that most breeds need (which will vary form breed to breed, so this is another thing to learn first -some tests like eye testing needs a specialist vet), nor will they know if the bitch is a good example of her breed.

What day you take a bitch to stud varies from bitch to bitch and also sometimes from season to season, the simple answer is when she is ready -that could mean day 3 for one bitch, day 12 for one and day 18 for another, you need to know how your bitch works, how to spot the signs, or undergo the blood tests at the vets to determine the right day.

Yes, she has had all the checks including xray, bloods, urine.  She is also up to date on jabs.

I am fully aware of the seriousness of breeding and this is not a decision I have taken lightly.  After a huge amount of research and also in depth discussions with the Vet and other breeders, it was advised that having one litter prior to spade would be most beneficial.  I would never put my bitch at risk.  The Vet which I use, and his wife are proud owners and breeders of my breed and the surgery is also a specialist hospital and has excellent facilities.

Hi Rachel

It's not just as easy as putting two dogs of the same breed together and getting pups. Have you researched required health testing for your breed? Also I don't have your breed but do have toy dogs, whelping (that is the act of the puppies being born) is often difficult in toy breeds, I have just whelped a litter where all three pups were breech and one stuck fast, his sac broke and his lungs and airways were full of mucous. I was lucky to save him and the pup stuck behind. Sadly my previous litter was not so lucky and two pups were born for one to die on the second day. If you know you want to breed then you have come to a great place and people here will guide and help you- just not immediately as you may not yet be ready to cope with things you may not even have given thought to yet,for no other eason that you havent seen what can go wrong.
Have you taken your little dog to ringcraft classes- this can be a great first step to learning what does and doesn't make a good example of your breed. Going to shows will do the same. What about the breeder of your girl has she assesed her for you?

I understand your excitement and wanting to breed a litter it's not long since I felt like that too but why not take a little more time. If your girl is a good example of the breed and judges tell you so and she passes her health tests you can then spend time finding a similar boy for her and go in a bit more prepared. Even better if you can help out a few whelpings beforehand.

Good Luck

it was advised that having one litter prior to spade would be most beneficial.

For whom?!!!

I would never put my bitch at risk.

By putting a dog through pregnancy, no matter what the breed you ARE putting it at risk, and although I know nowt about pugs, I should have thought these are dogs with quite stringent health testing requirements due to their design, and I should imagine that they're not what could be generally described as easy whelpers.

Just have a look through some of the postings on the Breeding forum. Over the last 6 months there have been many sad stories of very experienced breeders losing their bitch either during birth or shortly after. It's heartbreaking to think that these people HAVE weighed up the risks, HAVE had all the relevant health checks done, HAVE got a ready and waiting market for the pups, all to end a much loved pet first and foremost. There are a number of posts asking for help to raise these litters, asking if anyone else has a nursing bitch nearby to take some extra pups to feed. JeanSW has posted on her this morning in response to another query about losing the one and only pup from her bitch ... then you have all the harrowing time of getting the bitch back to full recovery whilst it is mourning. Believe me, they know when they should be raising puppies!

You obviously know, trust and respect your vet. I have a vet I know, trust and respect, however he made a HUGE cock up with someone elses dog last year, leaving me to pick up the pieces and the HUGE costs with my dogs. They are not always the best to advise about breeding.

Vets (as a generalisation in my experience and through my readings) are generally also very very lacking in knowledge about breeding and reproduction. There is scientifically NO benefit to 'let' a bitch have a litter before speying, and I think you will find it is far more beneficial to have her speyed without a litter, you will not go through the huge expense of raising a litter ... it WILL be very expensive. If it isn't then you haven't done all the right tests and you're not raising them in a good manner. I know this, I've just worked out the costs associated with my first litter. This I have to add has been planned for over 3 years, BVA eye tests done, hip scores done, DNA testing done on both parents. So I have ticked all the boxes regarding the health tests required for my breed, it's not been a case of going along to the vet as being told "yep she's fit and healthy, she'll be fine to have a litter". I have also ensured that all the other very important factors are in place: temperament, character, work ability, socialisation programme planned for pups, everything in place to ensure that what I have decided to create will be a well balanced puppy and will grow into a well balanced adult to fit into our very strange and demanding society.

Not meant as a damning, just to try to push you into thinking a bit more about it. Nor is it a case of saying well it's ok for me but not for you. I've done a lot of thinking, I've done a lot of talking with the Breeder of my dogs, I've also done an awful lot of watching on this forum. I have had a huge amount of backing and I have a lot of people lining up for my dogs. It has not been taken light hearted. I can also tell you that when I was reading some of the posts where bitches had died and the breeder was looking for surrogate mum's ... that made me feel physically sick as my bitch was approaching her due date.

Please take note of comments, they are all said with everyone's best interest at heart, and you must respect the judgement of folk, even if only one or two, or why else would you be posting on the forum. :-)

>she has had all the checks including xray, bloods, urine.

What were the blood and urine tests for?

It's not actually beneficial to a bitch to have a litter, whether or not she's spayed (not 'spade' ;-)) afterwards. However, you've waited a sensible time before breeding from her, and I'm glad she's had all the breed-relevent tests for hereditary conditions (puppy buyers have the law very much on their side if their puppy develops a problem which could have been avoided); I assume the stud dog has too?

Wow!  Now I feel like I am abusing my beloved pet???  Firstly, I apologise for THE spelling mistake! 

My parents have always owned dogs and have had 2 bitches whom had phantom pregnancies which was very distressing for both my parents and also the bitches, they were told by Vets that before SPAYING it is better for the bitch to have one litter due to hormonal, behavioural and other technical reasons (I am not a Vet).  I have a very good relationship with our Vetenary Surgeon whom, as previously stated, is also a breeder of my breed specifically.  Neutering was discussed, at length, at my bitches Adolescent Health Check and it was decided then (through experience and advice sought) that I MAY possibly breed at 18 months, 3rd season.

From this time.  I feel I have done more than sufficient research.  I am well aware of ALL the complications of breeding my breed and posted one simple question not expecting responses to become technical and judgemental???

The (optional) urine tests were for underlying kidney conditions, diabetes, bacterial infections, urinary infections, immune disorders, Cushing's disease, hepatitis and liver conditions.  The x-ray was for hip dysplasia.  As well as the blood tests, she was also tested for eye problems all at my expense - none spared.  The stud belongs to a friend of mine who has little experience but is very well looked after and has had the above testing three months ago with the intention of breeding the two.

I have already researched and priced for scanning, complications at birthing, pup health checks, primary vaccinations, worming, dietry needs and insurance, I think I've covered most things already including emergency procedures.

I have been reading many posts on this forum, and other forums for many months.  I am not an expert or an experienced breeder BUT...  I do not appreciate judgemental comments and this, for me and my bitch is hopefully going to be an amazing experience which we will never forget. 

I'm sorry if you think people are being judgemental - we certainly don't mean to come across like that! And I'm very impressed that your bitch has been hipscored - very few toy breeders bother to do that, so that's a real plus point. The hemivertabrae test, though, is very important for your breed before they're used for breeding (both dogs and bitches), but even that is less serious than PDE. I'm sure you've come across this information before, but I'll post it in case others haven't.

hiya, just wanted to add after your last comment. has the dog been used at stud before? as its not a good idea to use an inexperienced dog on a maiden bitch, its best if the dog has a bit of experience, its can be a bit scary on both sides. no judgement on you but i just thought i'd add that.

Hi Rachel

I think people are just trying to help. Had your initial post explianed all the research you had done and tests etc you may well have got a different response but it does read very differently to your later one explaining the steps you have taken. Is anyone at the stud dogs house experienced in breeding/whelping? Do they or other friends show and breed and so have experience they can guide you with at the time of mating and whelping? It can be a lonely place when a litter goes wrong in the middle of the night and only you to fix it. If unsure of when is the correct day has your vet suggested checking her progesterone to pin point the right time? Mine suggested this but as she was going to a very experienced kennel for mating I didn't need to do this and relied on the stud dog owner knowing when the time was right.
I agree with others there is no benefit to the bitch from having a litter only risks

Maybe your dogs breeder could help you both with the mating.  Have you talked to them.  Mine were very helpful and helped/guided me all the way and always on the other end of the phone even for a silly question.

Good luck with your bitch and enjoy the experience no matter what happens.  Be prepared for her not taking also, you might have to go through all this again.

In defence of my own comments, I don't think I've been judgemental, and certainly no accusation of abusing your beloved pet :-) The problem is that there are a LOT of posts on this forum from people who think it's a good idea to have a litter, for whatever motive, and without having done any research, no health tests, no consideration of character/temperament of dog, etc, etc.

In this society, where dogs have become high profile news for many reasons, it is important to ensure that all relevant checks etc have been done and that there's a real reason/need to breed from the dog.

Just pointing out all the factors, which many people really do not consider, or sadly care about, or even know about.

So whilst it wasn't clear in your original post that you have done relevant health tests (by that I mean eye, hip and breed related tests), beyond just a vet check, you apparently have. In that case you will get a lot of advice from this forum. So, me thinks better to be told the full facts or asked all the questions to ascertain the full facts. Anyway, I wish you luck in your planned breeding and hope all goes well if you go ahead. Just make sure you get the breeder of your dog on board and glean as much as you can from them. :-)

I would seriously suggest you look at the dangers of putting a dog through having a litter vs what the vet has advised you as I can't imagine any strong arguement for breeding a litter. It would be good to get your vet to provide some firm evidence of the reasons he gives as doubt there is any research that backs his recommendations. I know of plenty of people who have bitches (4 of my own) that have not had litters who have gone of to lead happy, healthy normal lives after being spayed.

Hi Rachel,  I can't find detials in your profile or anywhere about your breed, but form some of the rejplies about helath issues and tests would guess it to be the same as one of my breeds.  I am glad you have a good relationship with you vet, but can't understand why a Hip xray would have been recomended, and not one for HV.  Also very puzzled by the full blood work up you had done, no vet has ever suggested this to me unless they had suspicions of underlying health risks - it makes me wonder how much expertise you vet has with breeders/breeding?  I would also be extremely dubious of any vet who recomends a litter before spaying a bitch - this is very, very out dated thinking.  A bitch is much less likely to have hormonal issues if she has never had a litter before having the op.

I feel bad adding to the unfavourable advice you have already received, but think you should be aware that if both you and the stud dog owner are inexperienced, and both the dog and bitch are first timers, then the likelood of you actually acheiving a mating is very limited.  This is generaly not an easy breed to mate, especially for the first time, and if neither of you has any experience I don't see how you are going to be able to help the dog if he is unsure or reluctant, and how you can tell if they are being unsure, or if she is just not ready.  I would always recomend an experienced dog for a first time bitch, and you need an experienced  breeder on hand to make sure things go as smoothly and easily as possible for your girl.  I would add that if you have never whelped a bitch before then our breed is a nighmare place to start.  Had I not had many years experience of breeding before whleping my first pug litter I don't think I would ever had dared have another.  I would also not rely too much on the fact your girl's Mum self whelped a litter, as whilst primary inertia can be inheredited, it is all too easy for a bitch to get into difficulties and still need a C section due to a pup presenting in an unusal way,  over the past couple of years I have had to have C section for pups presenting shoulder first, one leg tucked back, head tilted to crown rather than nose first, family history has no bearing on these type of births, but only experience can tell you when the bitch is in trouble.  I know everyone has to start somewhere, bu this is not an easy breed for a first timer.

I also wonder why you have decided this boy is the perfect mate for your girl, apart from the fact he is owned by a friend and is local?  IF he has also only been Hip Xrayed and not done for HV this just adds to the points against him.  Have you contacted your girls breeder, can he/she not guide you through the process and point you in the direction of a stud dog who will work well with your bitche's attributes and her pedigree, and who is producing quality, healthy pups already?

Finally, in answer to your original question, my girls have been ready to mate for the first time on anything form the 9th to the 18th day of a season, so it is impossible for anyone to give you the straightforward type of answer you were looking for.   You can have blood tests done at the vet to determine ovulation, which may be the best way to go rather than trying to "read" her season, if you are determined on this litter.

Is it just me or is 18 months old a little young to be thinking of a litter anyway? In my breed it is a requirement that the bitch is over 2 years?

mine too

Im with you on that one 18 months is way too young in my opinion and its only an opinion I always thought it was a minimum of 2 years before breeding as they are still developing at such a young age?? 

With toy bitches alot will breed from 18 months onwards or third season as they mature faster than large breeds.

After a huge amount of research and also in depth discussions with the Vet and other breeders,

I feel I have done more than sufficient research.  I am well aware of ALL the complications of breeding my breed and posted one simple question not expecting responses to become technical and judgemental???


With all due respect, all this research and all the talk with breeders and you have come to a internet forum of strangers to ask when she should be mated.. scratching my head a little to be honest.

I have to agree with Blue. In the 'Book of the Bitch', compulsory reading from my mentor lol, I'm fairly sure there is a chunk on breeding and the best day. And surely if the vet keeps and breeds the same breed then he would be able to tell you. Just an observation.

> Is it just me or is 18 months old a little young to be thinking of a litter anyway? In my breed it is a requirement that the bitch is over 2 years?

Certainly not too young.  Boody is right, and I would expect my breed to be fully mature enough for breeding at 18 months.  But, where some folks don't breed from larger dogs until 2-3 years of age, I retire my bitches from breeding at 4 years old.  So, you have to realise that not all breeds come under the same umbrella where breeding is concerned.

I'll close this as the OP has not been back & has already been given good advice here.