could someone pls tell me in chinese cresteds why some are called hairy hairless? i know what a powder puff is like and a hairless- presumably the one with no hair but tufts on head and feet. so what is a hairy hairless???

There are some that you do have to shave etc, suppose they have more fine hair than a normal hairless but less than a Powderpuff?

Yes, I think that's it - I have a friend who breeds the puffs (you get both in a litter though), and I think you do get some that aren't quite hairless enough.

Most breeders do puff x hairless so you end up with what is called a hairy hairless, some I've been shown I thought were puffs I'll be honest but most have a ridge of hair down their spine, across the rump and high on the legs.  I only know of 1 breeder that breeds hairless to hairless and even then they have a certain amount of hair on their backs etc.

When you breed Hairless x Puff you can get both hairless pups and puff pups, the hl pups can be either thl (true hairless) hl (hairless) or hhl (hairy hairless) it all depends on what's in the lines behind both parents.  Hairless x Hairless will also give you the above resulting puppies but puff x puff will only give you puff puppies, and the puff x puff matings are frowned upon.

Why are puff to puff matings frowned upon?  Must admit I really wanted a Powderpuff when I was a lot younger!

I suspect because you would loose the hairless gene, not only wouldn't there be any hairless in the litter, but none of the pups would carry the gene for hairlessness.

Yeah, but there are enough hairless out there to breed from?  I know it wasn't many years ago when Powderpuffs were totally frowned upon even being.

Because Chinese Cresteds are originally a hairless breed.  Puffs don't carry the hairless gene.  

Even a hairless to hairless mating will give you puffs so there is no need to mate 2 puffs together anyway.

Yes it wasn't too long ago when some breeders used to drown puffs at birth :(

I was advised by an old breeder, in the breed for yrs and now dead, you can always tell if its a hairless when it looks like a puff just check the mouth as true hairless have forward facing tusks not a mouth full of glorious teeth. 

I could hear her saying that when I read the revised breed standard asking for full dentition, made me chuckle coz she always used to say if they force the mouth issue you'll have everyone shaving puffs off, still find myself checking mouths as she taught me though lol.

Still the standard.  Puffs have the mouth of a "normal" dog hairless have a totally different mouth - all linked to the hairless gene and often lose some of their teeth very young.  Most judges will that though and overlook a hl with a tooth missing in an otherwise good hl mouth.

I don't have any puffs myself but have seen plenty of their mouths.  Personaility wise they are more like a "normal" dog too!  :)

If you look at a true hairless CC it  will be considerably smaller  with only a small tuft of hair on the head, and  very little furnishings on the legs and tail, where a  a hairy hairless will have a  Mane of hair on his head and down to his withers, along with more on his feet and tail,  which will result  in them having to shave the body  to rid any unwanted hair..

Fashion dictates    the CC  to be extravagant in its furnishings,    the more the better,   you will also get breeders shaving their PP to look like Hairless,    (cheating)

At one point PP were not shown and  discharged  as inferior, (bit like the white Boxer)  no one wanted them and   they were culled at birth, nowadays they are as equal as their hairless , some breeders  will have nothing to do with them, and would never show one, but thankfully that changing ,

Funny enough at Cheshire County  show this week there was a lady (very old  breeder  in the breed) with her true hairless have to say they where ugly little  things  LOL!! compared to the hairy variety??  she  chomped on all day about the judge and the breed standard, and hers beign the true crested, she told my friend her dog was to big and not a good enough (he went on to take 3rd in  open)   along with the PP`s  taking all firsts and best in breed  on the day (judge likes PP`S)  so do I to be honest.

So in effect the hairy hairless you dont have to tidy up, because they hardly have any hair to  take off, the hairless you do have to tidy up and shave the body, because they get stubble ( or a bit like baby down )   the PP you just take the hair off the face and a V under chin down neck,   then there is the unscrupulous   shaving of powder puffs, to make them hairless with fabulous flowing locks!!!

Ha jackbox, I bet I know who that person is!  Could make a comment but won't.

Ha jackbox, I bet I know who that person is!  Could make a comment but won't.

Yep,   I know,  

It is hard to prove,  but I believe most of the cresties you see in the ring are not true hairless. They are shaved/depilated hairy hairless and in some cases powderpuffs. I saw some very sore-looking dogs at Crufts; dogs that had clearly had a lot of hair removed. I don't think it's the biggest welfare problem in the world, but it seems a mad old world in which slapping Veet on a dog in order to win a rosette is considered acceptable. I find it upsetting too that the shaving can start when the pups are just six-weeks-old. I accept that if you're going to do it it's probably best to start when they're young so they get used to it, but I'd rather it wasn't done at all.  It is cheating, too. There are some breeders who I know feel very strongly about this - who rarely win with their true hairless because the shaved hairy-hairlesses or powderpuffs are so much showier.  They need to be brave enough to speak out on this issue.

I'd be interested to hear what people in other breeds think about it.

Jemima

Mouth
Jaws strong, with perfect, regular scissor bite, i.e. upper teeth closely overlapping lower teeth and set square to the jaws.

This is from the KC website can't see anything there that accepts the 'classic' hairless mouth I was told about thos yrs back, so does that mean that they are breeding hairless and puffs to rid the breed of the tusks of a true hairless?

No that can't be done - HL Cresteds will always have forward facing tusks!  Breeding a HL to a Puff will not rid any HL puppies of the forward facing tusks!

Jackbox - I believe you got the end of your message back to front :) !

Also I have a true hairless which I am currently showing and she does not have any body hair but also does not have only a small tuft of hair on her head!  She has a mane which goes down to her withers!  She has plenty of glamour and also lots of leg and tails furnishings - so what you have said is not entirely correct.  All Cresteds are different!

I have photos of my girl born and growing up - she is just a year old now, so if you are interested in seeing what MY THL girl looked and looks like then just yell as I am more than happy to send on pics!

THL Cresteds are not considerably smaller than either a HL a HHL nor a puff!

As I am in a breed which is thankfully shown with it's coat in a clean but in a totally natural state with no trimming at all, and certainly in Scandinavia and UK that is the case (USA is another matter), then I don't see the point in any trimming, altering of the natural coat.

On the otehr hand an awful lot of breeds are trimmed stripped etc.  Some it's jsut tidying up, soem it's topiary/hairdressing.

So is removing the wisps off an otherwise hairless dogs any different to tidying the coats on other breeds?  Poodles are sometimes shaved off behind (I think it's horrid personally).

As for shaving actual powder puffs then that is cheating.

I thought the reason for using PP in the breeding was to improve dentiton, (improve welfare) but the unwanted side effect was stray hair, so in this case I don't see the problem with removing fuzz and stray hair of an otherwise hairless dog.

No quite true.  Breeding a HL to a Puff will make the offspring no more hairy than breeding a HL to a HL.  Using a Puff does improve dentition as you say.  It all depends on what is behind the dogs that you use for breeding.  A lot of Puffs can have a lot of THL dogs behind them and therefore by careful breeding you can aim to produce puppies that have less body hair.  So using a puff really is no different (body hair wise) in using a HL apart from like you say - the dentition.

I left it too late to edit but my post above was meant to read - "NOT quite true".

Jackbox - I believe you got the end of your message back to front  !

Which bit ??

Also I have a true hairless which I am currently showing and she does not have any body hair but also does not have only a small tuft of hair on her head!  She has a mane which goes down to her withers!  She has plenty of glamour and also lots of leg and tails furnishings - so what you have said is not entirely correct.  All Cresteds are different!

Yes, thats true, they are all different, but many of the True hairless in the ring are
not as flashy as  fashion wants,  and many are smaller, and not as impressive as the hairy or pp , and the pp that is shaved to look hairless  is even more noticable.

I have photos of my girl born and growing up - she is just a year old now, so if you are interested in seeing what MY THL girl looked and looks like then just yell as I am more than happy to send on pics!

THL Cresteds are not considerably smaller than either a HL a HHL nor a puff!

Some are though!!  you will knwo fashion dicates the "my little pony"   image of the crested,  and many a true hairless  fails to make that impression.

I am sure your baby is lovely  though!!

As for shaving actual powder puffs then that is cheating.

yes, but it goes on   and with prominent  breeders /exhibitors

I can't comment on whether or not Powderpuffs get shaved off, it's not something I would ever do

but what's the point when you can show them as Powder puffs and win with them that way?

I was referring to your last paragraph on your post 

Oops yes,  should have said true hairless, hairy hairless and powder puffs.

Funny how you can re-read you post and a mistake misses you, then re- read it again and it jumps straight out!!

but what's the point when you can show them as Powder puffs and win with them that way?

Because they still very much have a stigma attached to them, by some breeders and judges.

Many breeders will simply  have nothing to do with them, and as many breeders are also judges they carry that prejudice into the ring.

So   they will either sell them on to pet homes, or as some do shave them to look like hairless.

But on the up side,  more people are becoming fans of the PP, and there are judges out there who do like them,   personally   I prefer them to the hairless.