Afternoon Folks.
My husband and I bought a beautiful WHWT puppy from a breeder and signed a Puppy sales contract as we didnt intend on not being the owners for life. But things changed and we are seperated and had to rehome the dog. The breeder has found this out and is now saying we are in breach of the contract. We haven't neglected the dog nor sold it, simply got her re homed to a loving caring family. The breeder is being quite annoying and he is emailing me saying he has rights to know where the dog is and is causing me upset. I dont want any legal goings on when I have a divorce imminent. My health isnt great and I have told him this. Can amyone please tell me where I stand legally?
The PSC states that the dog is to be returned to him with no refund. Many thanks, Julie

Unless the puppy contract was drawn up by a solicitor basically it's not a legal document, but saying that when my pups leave I would like to think that the new owners would do the decent thing and return pup to me or at least contact me to say they can no longer take care of the pup and give me the option of taking pup back.

Think of how upset the breeder will be, not knowing where the dog is, how it is looked after etc -that can cause many sleepless nights. It happened to me once and when I found out I was so hysterical with worry my husband thought a family member had died! Why not simply put the breeder in touch with the new owners so he can put his mind at rest?

Hi Julie, you have my sympathy in this stressful time.  Is there a reason why you didn't approach the breeder first?

Most good breeders want the option of rehoming their own puppies - it's the mark of a concientious breeder in fact - and I can understand why they are upset not to have been kept informed.  How old is the dog now?  How did they find out - did the new owners contact them?  What contact have you had with the breeder so far?

There are a number of issues which may be upsetting them - they could have endorsements on the pup to ensure it's not bred from, which is important for many reasons; they may want to have continued contact with all the owners of their pups and feel disappointed that you didn't contact them for advice; they may wish to keep contact with owners for health reasons (it is a breed that can experience skin problems); they may have found out about the new owners and feel they aren't suitable for some reason; they may feel uncomfortable that you have sold (?) your pup without disclosing key information - which may be all or some of the above.  It's difficult to be sure without knowing the circumstances but you can be fairly sure it's because they do care - that they have threatened legal action.

Your best bet is to resolve the issue with them direct - let them tell you how annoyed they are, and take steps to explain, and apologise, if necessary.  If you have found a very good home then that may go some way to reassuring them  Perhaps you could facilitate an introduction?   If the breeder does take legal advice you could expect a letter from a solicitor but it all depends on the contract as to whether it goes further than that.  It's unlikely I would think, but not impossible.

Let's hope you are able to resolve the situation in a way that suits you all.  Good luck  

> we are seperated and had to rehome the dog

You did not have to re-home the dog, you could have taken him back to the breeder, as per contract.. can you imagine how much distress this is now causing the breeder...

Is there a reason why you did not contact the breeder? You say you signed a contract.. and whether or not it was written up by a solicitor, it can, and possibly could be acted upon by the breeder. personally, as a breeder, I would.   

You have effectively nullified any endorsements placed on it..

while I feel sorry for your personal situation, you chose ignore the contract a thoughtfull breeder had prepared for her pups...

If you have re-homed the dog as you say, and not sold him.. then the PSC stating no refund should not have made any difference.. (or did it? )

Is there any reason why you could not put the owners of the pup in touch with the breeder, she may just be happy to know where her pup is, not to ask for it back..

Kay
The fact is that I didn't choose to send the dog back to him is because he would have sold it on making double the money and that to me is immoral.
And the fact that I was the owner who bought the dog gives me the rights not him to how the dog is brought up. I am in touch with the dogs new keeper and we chat regularly. I didn't 'sell' to get my money back as the money was irrelevant.

If the breeder hadn't called me umpteen times and made a nuisance of themselves then I may have looked into returning the dog. But it seemed like a 'business' to me more than breeding ethics.

Julie

Adult dogs have virtually no resale value at all unless successful show or working dogs -how could the breeder have doubled the money? Uncaring breeders don't ask for the dog back, the caring ones do.

This particular breeder sells adult dogs for the same price as puppies

Hi Julie
Sorry that you find yourself in this awfull situation BUT how sure are you that the breeder would have sold him on ? not all breeders take dogs back and sell them , good breeders who use PSC usually rehome the dogs for nothing  and just want to be content knowing where their dogs are and that they are happy i know many who have done this , unless he has actually told you he would sell it , i dont think you can judge him.

Okay, I just wanted to know where I stood and didn't want to be judged myself as some seem to have done.

> Okay, I just wanted to know where I stood and didn't want to be judged myself as some seem to have done.

Understandable.. but the majority of us on here are breeders, and we are looking at this situation as breeders, and tunnel vision or not, it is a concern to us, that we have these contracts with out puppy owners, whom we trusted with our pups, to at least have the decency to inform us of circumstantial change..

That said, if you feel this breeder was not the right person to give dog back to, then I would have thought it would not have been the right type of breeder to buy a pup from in the 1st place.. but still you signed a contract!

An adult dog has no re-sale value, it would be highly unlikely any breeder could./would sell an adult dog... but if you are sure that they sell adult dogs for full puppy price, that again, would ring alarms bells when purchasing puppy..

Okay.. I am judging again.. but all aspects have to be considered.. we are only getting one side of the story.. and of course I am sure they may be other reasons on your side, possibly personal, which you dont want to disclose.. understandably..

but you did ask.. and here is your answer.. be prepared for a legal battle.. it may not happen, but you still need to be prepared for it..

belive me i am not judging you , you have done what you thought was best ,all i am saying is just as you want him to give you a break be kind and see his point of view , as others have said let him know where the dog is and maybe help with an introduction

> The fact is that I didn't choose to send the dog back to him is because he would have sold it on making double the money and that to me is immoral.
>

I have never re-sold a dog I have had beck for re-homing, in fact it costs the breeder in time and trouble.

As Marianne B says adult dogs unless successful show dogs have no resale value, they are considered rescues.  Some breeders will ask the adopter to make a contribution to breed rescue/welfare.

I have to say my experience has been different with the price being asked for returned untrained adult dogs being almost or more than I paid for my puppy of the same breed.

That seems most illogical as surely people would get a puppy instead with no baggage?

Like Barbara, I have never charged a penny for an adult dog that has needed rehoming - not that there have been many, I'm very pleased to say.

To the OP, it does seem very unfair of you not to have kept to the terms of the Contract - you signed it!

I was considering an adult dog at the time.  As far as I am aware neither dog had any issues and both had good temperaments and breeding.  But they were large breed dogs and obviously not as easy to control and train as a puppy.

Sorry if you feel as though you are being judged, but you did sign a contract outlining what should happen. A breeder friend had a pup re-homed without her knowledge, she was frantic ... she vets her prospective owners very very carefully, as do most good breeders, and to hear that a pup/dog had been re-homed without her being informed (as per contract) she was devastated. As it was all did turn out well in the end, but only after a long and agonising time on the part of my friend. The new home was fine and that's where the dog stayed.
I've just put together my puppy contract ... done it to safeguard the future of my dogs. I want to be the one to choose where they go, hopefully for their forever home, I accept that circumstances can and do change, and life throws mess at folk, but I need to know that those animals I am responsible for introducing into this strange society are going to be safeguarded throughout their lives. Guess that's why we do the contracts :-)
I would get in touch with the breeder, own up to not really paying attention to the contents of the contract you've signed and try to assure as much as you can that you have found a good home, and give the breeder details of the new home so that they can be satisfied of that first hand.

I too have been on the receiving end of someone not complying with a sales contract.  Not something I would ever want one of my puppies/dogs ever to go through again.  The first I knew was when I got a phone call from the Police in a town 30 miles away.  They said they had one of my dogs, according to the microchip.  I counted the usual suspects and they were all present :-) then realised that I had placed an older puppy more than 12 months earlier in the area.  I contacted the owner who was immediately very evasive and then admitted that he had rehomed the girl without consulting me.  This was someone who had kept in touch for over 12 months to let me know how she was doing and they were (in his words) totally happy.  I immediately drove down to the police station and picked her up.  I was appalled to be told that the local dog warden had been trying to catch her for over a week :-o  One phone call and I would have been there in a flash.  I still have nightmares when I think what she might have gone through in the week before she was picked up. Thank god for microchips is all I can say.  Until you have been in that situation you cannot begin to imagine how stressful it is to find out one of your 'babies' has been let down by people that you trusted.

Sounds more like someone trying to find out how their puppy is rather than being a business. I have only homed 2 puppies, one is with lovely people who do send text updates and I've invited myself over a couple of times when I've been in the area, but trying to get them to send a photo is like pulling teeth, lol! I probably am a little bit of a nuisance to them, the dog is 2 1/2 years old now and they still get me texting a 'hi, hope all's well' every few months. And they will continue to do so all the dog's life - yes they have reared and loved the dog all his life and he has a great life with them and is their dog not mine. But I chose to bring him into existence and so I have a responsibility to make sure the dog is happy.

To your original query, I doubt your contact is legal and binding, but as the breeder is so upset, surely it would do no harm to let the new owners have the breeder's details so they can get in touch to reassure them that the dog is in a happy loving home?

>If the breeder hadn't called me umpteen times and made a nuisance of themselves then I may have looked into returning the dog. But it seemed like a 'business' to me more than breeding ethics.

If you don't want to inform the breeder where the dog now is, could you get the new owners to give an up-date through you to the breeder?
If they really want to know the dog is ok, maybe they will settle for that?

Is there any chance of you taking the dog back in the future once you have settled down or is this move a permanent one?

Good luck, sounds like you are in a tricky position. I am not a breeder and neither have I had a contract with a breeder so I am unbiased. Hope you manage to sort something out that makes everyone happy.

The new owners could write a letter and send photo's that way they can get in contact whenever they want and the breeder doesn't the new owners address. The breeder doesn't legally own the puppy it just sounds like they are worried more than anything, and if you cant trust the breeder as others have addressed why buy from them in the first place.

I agree with the others an older dog would cost the breeder money to keep rather than make money from it, in our breed quite a few show people have rescued within the breed as the breed is quite hard to re- home in a kennel situation.

Surely it wouldn't hurt to pass on the new owners contact details to the breeder ? I think you owe them that.

A few years ago someone my OH works with wanted to rehome a pup. I said I would take on the pup but I asked them to get in touch with the breeder. They said "they couldn't be bothered." When the pup came to me with all of his paperwork I rang the breeder myself to let her know where he was and to reassure her that he would be loved and cared for. I kept thinking how I would feel if I had put a lot of time effort and love into rearing this puppy and it wasn't where I thought it was. She was more than welcome to come and visit to see for herself that he was being looked after. It wasn't about the money but the welfare of the pup.  I'm sure that is why the breeder is concerned and just a chat with the new owners may be all that is needed to put her mind at rest. After all she probably spent a lot of time choosing the right owners for her pups and she was happy that you were the right person to love and care for one of her babies, as sadly your circumstances have changed she, like you, will have the pups best interests at heart. Please try not to see her concern as being a nuisance but as the sign of an excellent breeder who looks out for her pups throughout their lives and is willing to offer help and support to their owners. As I said a chat with you or the new owners maybe all that is needed to reassure her and she will then not feel the need to keep contacting you and so everyone will be happy. I hope all works out well for you during this stressful time :)

This is what happened with my first ever dog as well. I was given him by his owners when their living arrangements changed (I was his dog walker), and they didn't tell the breeder. As I got all the paperwork I contacted the breeder and she was over the moon at finding out where Master had gone. She invited us for a visit and we got to meet his mother which was great. A long time ago now, it was 1981, but it made a big impression on me.

hi trurowesties, shouldn't the question be where you stand morally? I'm not and never will be a breeder, but I can't even let my hens go out into the wide world without worrying about their welfare, never mind a dog. I think the breeder's upset is fully understandable and if the new owners are as good as you say then I'm sure he would be much relieved--all any conscientious breeder ever wants to know is that their dogs are being well loved and cared for.

Same thing happened to me a few years back now, sold pup to couple who knew she couldn't be bred from due to endorsements and the fact there was a cleft palate pup in litter, they agreed and signed my contract stating they knew.......well only 4 weeks after taking her home, they decided they did want a litter from her so contacted the KC to say they hadn't been told about the restrictions, of course I had my signed copy and the KC backed me up.  They rehomed that poor little girl just 6 weeks after taking her home, and point blankly refused to tell me where she had gone............I have to say I was frantic with worry, so can understand why the breeder is contacting you.  I tried all ways with first owners but they didn't budge.  I knew the area she had gone to, so sent posters to my friends that lived in that area, she put them in pet shops, vets etc.  I spoke to the KC who said the bitch had been re-registered, so I wrote a letter to 'whom it may concern' (now owners) and sent it to the KC who then forwarded it on to the now owners............it took a while, but they did get back in touch, and you would not believe the relief I felt knowing my little girl was with a lovely new family, being loved and cared for.

So please have a thought for the breeder, they watched that pup being born into the world, they cared for it over the first 8-10 weeks of life and when it went off to its new home hoped this was the start of a friendship between you and them, being a breeder we don't expect weekly updates, just once or twice a year to let us know how things are going, and hopefully a picture every so often.  Instead your breeder only has your word that the pup is with a nice new family, what harm would it do just to give them details and put their mind at ease??

Hi Julie, you have my sympathy in this stressful time.  Is there a reason why you didn't approach the breeder first?

It seems the owner was more worried over the breeder "making a bit " (if he in fact does sell on returned dogs)  and herself not getting any money back from the pup, if she had sent it back the the breeder she would have received no refund, so by selling it to some one else, she has recouped some of her money.

Sorry , but that is the impression that has come across from  your post,  you signed a contract, you where obviously happy with  the breeder when you bought the pup,    you surely read the contract  and agreed to it before you took your pup home.

In my experience  breeders who take the time to draw up contracts usually do so because they care  for the welfare of their offsprings.. and from what you say, this breeder certainly falls into that category, otherwise he would not be contacting you  to find out why you did not honor the contract  and return said pup.

I find  this realy sad,   you know , breeders can only do their best to ensure their pups go to and stay in the homes they pick,  and  what this also proves is that no matter how hard they try to ensure they keep trck of their puppies, its still down to the owner,  if the owner does not  inform  the breeder and honor a contract,   then they are stuffed.

Shame these contracts cant stand up in law,  then it may make the person who signs it and has no intention of honoring it,  think twice.

My sympathies are with the breeder,  who tried to do the right thing and has been shafted.

you at least owe him the name and phone number of the new owner!!!

> Shame these contracts cant stand up in law,  then it may make the person who signs it and has no intention of honoring it,  think twice.
>

I am sure many of them would, but ti is expensive and time consuming to take these things to law.

I've been keeping track of this thread although wasn't going to post anything. But I'm sorry, I think the OP knew exactly what she was doing and has behaved absolutely disgracefully. What possible harm could it do to her now to pass on the new owners details to the breeder. I have no sympathy or respect for her.

If the breeder hadn't called me umpteen times and made a nuisance of themselves then I may have looked into returning the dog. But it seemed like a 'business' to me more than breeding ethics.

But surely the breeder did not ring and make a nuisance of himself   till AFTER he found out you had re homed/sold  the dog.............so how could you have then returned it to him!!!

I would be deeply upset if this had happend to me, imo the first port of call IF you have to part with the dog is the breeder.  If you dont want to contact the breeder, perhaps you could inform the new owners would kindly get in touch with the breeder, and explain the dog is happy etc and an update of the dog now.

I had a dog handed into a rescue, with all its papers, i did not find out until i saw him a year later with different owners and recognised him.  fortunatley he had landed on his feet, but i was so relieved to find out he was ok.

I think the original poster wanted to know just one thing....will there be any backlash from her actions..... legally.

I guess from her lack of response she's found out all she wanted to know...... :-(

It makes you wonder the point in contracts if they cannot be help to.  Its interesting that the endorsements are defunkt if the pup is resold, I thought they stayed for i could see all sorts of ways a puppy farmer can breed from the dogs if this right.

A friend of mine takes the dogs back for life, she has rehomed one to a friend and has kept the other one, which cost her huge vets bills, guess the new owners knew what they were doing when they gave her back.

"Its interesting that the endorsements are defunkt if the pup is resold"[ a point worth looking into sunshine -
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1735 which says under Regulation B12 b4  "In such cases the registered owner placing the endorsement shall not be responsible if notification of the endorsement is not given to any new owner, and may exercise his right to decide whether the endorsement be maintained or removed.............. "

That doesn't say it is defunkt , it says that the original person placing the endorsements (in most cases the orginal breeder) is not responsible.

IE if the endorsement was placed correctly and a contract signed from the breeder to the new owner ( 1st new owner after breeder) then selling the puppy on and not telling the next owner will NOT be an excuse for the endorsement to be lifted.

In other words the endorsement remains as the original person wished it to be.

Exactly Blue. So another good reason for breeders to put an Endorsement on the KC registration documents of puppies. If sold on it does not guarantee they will not be bred from as adults but does mean they will have much less value to seller and buyer if the litters cannot be KC registered.

well i have to agree with the others, i have signed a contract with the breeder of my newfie pup and i thought it was the most caring,amazing thing to do,i also signed about not having pups till health tests etc are done. To me,the breeder cares about this dog otherwise there would be no contract, also as they have so much experiance they can vet a new home out to see what is sutiable for the dog at the age it is now.I think it is wrong what you have done, i think that the fact the breeder has been calling etc so much shows how much he cares,and the least you can do is pass on the new owners numbers(thats if you do actually have them)I know we dont know the future,but god forbid my dog had to be rehomed, i would def follow the contract as to me i would have my dogs best interests at heart and that would be back at the breeders home,i am sorry if you dont like the answers,but you did ask and the people on here are only telling you from their own experiances and feelings if it happened to them