If you are considering a dog and have come here for inspiration please please think carefully about the breed you choose.
I am involved with Labradors and have been for over twenty years and also involved in rescue.
The biggest mistake people make when they get a Labrador is to think "well they make brilliant guide dogs" yes they do but they are specially bred for temperement!,they say " oh but Labradors are brilliant with Children" yes they can be but they are not born like that they need to learn with patience and understanding.
Ask yourself too if you havent had a dog before,can I stand the moulting? especially yellows whose hairs seem to be everywhere,do I want muddy walls in my house in winter when he has been for walks,Do I really want to go out walking everyday in the cold and wet?
The reason for my post is that Ive just come back from the kennels having been up to see two Labs we have in for rehoming both 8 months ( a very common age for being given up)both completly over the top with absoloutly no training whatsoever,no lead training in fact one doesnt appear to have ever had a lead on!!
Jumping leaping and generally unruly was the verdict.
Why? where have these dogs been? what have their families been doing just letting them in the garden ,its obvious nothing else has been done with thses two lovely dogs,but one nearly had me over and Im pretty strong, they have come in because they are too boisterous,so my question is why did the owners get a Labrador in the first place?
These two are just two of the many many hundred thousands even of Labradors coming through rescues all over the country.
So please if your not sure which breed is for you please do your homework before you buy a puppy,if you get a puppy start training day one little and often and make your new dog a joy to own learn together and then there will be one less dog for rescue. :) :)

Trouble is, a Labrador is not the dog for most people. They see the Andrex advert and think that is what they are getting. Six months after and they have an extreamly strong dog. One that loves to chew. One who can jump a four foot fence without any sort of a run at it. One who can dig four foot straight down almost as fast as he can jump four foot up. One who is quite capable of eating the Sunday joint and then asking, "When's dinner?" One who can run three fields over and without the proper you will have to walk three fields over to fetch back, (If you are lucky!).

These dogs are a victim of their popularity!

John

I don't know much about Labradors as I breed Pekes but this is an interesting thread - when some couples with childeren have come to look at my pups the childeren have commented - "Mum, can't we have an Andrex puppy" - I think quite a few people must associate Labradors with those ads ? just my view really.... not a lot of people actually consider the training and effort that goes into rearing a puppy - I always say a dog is what you make it and the owners are as responsible for establishing the dogs temprement as they are for their childerens

Donna

I think the media have an awful lot to answer for nowadays :( From other threads I've seen it always seems that certain breeds become popular after they've been used in some advertising campaign :(

I just can't understand people buying any kind of pup/dog without researching first to see if it'd be suitable for them and likewise if they'd be suitable for the pup/dog.

Before looking to get a new breed, I've always researched and read up on the breed first and met some too because I don't think getting a pup/dog should be taken lightly. Reading about the breed's a bit of fun too because it's good to then see the traits appear in your own dog.
I'm not going to turn this into a rant but there should be some sort of test people have to pass before they're classed competent to look after animals. Just IMHO :)
Dot

I agree with Donna

My vet has been bitten more times by labradors than any other breed PUT TOGETHER. So choosing a breed is good but choosing a good breeder is better. Mum and dad of pup are the best advisors on what the pup is going to be like as an adult.

regards
Jackie

Hope my post doesn`t come over as saying I think Labs are unreliable, temprement wise. What I was trying to say is that like all puppies , they grow up to be adult dogs & without the proper care & training that all pups need, they will grow up to be unruly teenagers, bodies of a man & minds of a toddler. Thats not saying they go around biting, I wouldn`t expect that of them at all.
Christine, Spain.

I am sure most agree with you Christine. The way a pup is brought up is the most important part of his or her life. But I did agree with other people when it was stated that just because it is a labrador does not mean automatic brilliant behaviour.

regards
Jackie

Hi all,Labradors are every bit as gorgeous as the adverts that use them to promote their wares & some more! :). But these puppies can & do grow up to be strong, self willed, independent dogs, like many other breeds of dogs. Thats why pups in adverts = *cute*. For me they are the most enjoyable breed of dog ever, always happy, but take your eye of them for a minute & they are trouble! They chew with a vengance, dig as if they have struck gold/oil & eat anything whether it`s edible/poisonous or not even if it fills them to bursting point. If something takes their fancy when out for a walk they will forget everything except their fancy & come back when they are ready or remember too. They learn how to open doors/gates/handles & any weakness in fences they will find it in 2 seconds flat. They are always full of life & rareing to go with energy I don`t even remember having, even when I was young :) They need loads of patience & gentleness with firm guidance that can only be done with lots of time spent with them & training them to what your needs are for them. Without all that they will/can destroy your house/home etc. Those little adorable pups will grow uo & can turn into the hounds from hell! Oh and don`t wait for them to grow up & mature cos they never do :) :)
Christine, Spain.

I agree with your sentiments. Labradors are very popular, but I have seen some unruly ones. One I know was kept on a lead until about 8 months old and you can guess what happened when it got free......away, away, till it felt like coming back. I agree with the Andrex thing too - I used to have kids go "Oh, look its Lassie" and come flying up to my Rough Collie. Luckily, he was brilliant with people, but it doesn't mean that they all are! There aren't many Vizslas where I am and yet people who have never owned a dog and don't know what he is come up to me and say, that's exactly what I want - what a lovely colour!!! Yeah, good idea, buy a dog for its colour. My dog can take three fields at full speed and still doesn't pant - infact, I've really only seen him pant excessively once and that was after full running for nearly an hour with another 2 year old Vizsla!

What can you do though.....!
Shirley

This description sounds very much like my Springer. I think all the working breeds are a bit of a handful as pets. These dogs are meant to have the energy and stamina to work on a shoot all day and mine certainly has! I agree that the Andrex ads play a part in it. The pups look so cute and cuddly and play nicely with the toilet rolls instead of shredding them into a million peices and having diarrhoea (sp) on the carpet. When the first Harry Potter film came out, a man who ran an owl sanctuary said parents were phoning him asking how much a white owl would cost as a xmas present. Duh!

hi springermania - I saw ads for 'Harry Potter Dogs' (I took it to mean Neapolitan Mastiffs) Grrrrrrrrrr:( :( :( Julie:(

We have exactly the same problem with Dalmatian welfare. People want the cute spotty puppy, but not the adolescent hooligan they end up with when they can't be a*sed to put in any effort (sorry about the language but they make my blood boil)

My severn year old lab is wonderful and as I had a child at the time she was only 3 years old when I had josh!! She has been patient loving tolerant great with him they rough and tumble a lot I actually got her from a puppy farm ish!! Unbeknown to me obviously severn years ago things like that were not well known!! I always played and rough and tumbled with her myself but socializing then too was not thought of she never mixed with kids but I would not replace her for the world now!! I have had moments where believe me bloody hairs have been a nightmare but i love her loads and she is part of our family!!!!!!! And her and Josh will always be together!!!!!!! People should think before they buy dogs but SOME of them never do and never will unfortunately that is a fact of life!!!!
Love to all rescue labs and may they all find perfect homes!!!!!!
Pinky

Its the same with Westies, folk thing that they are lovely cute fluffy pups. Oh! how wrong they are, they are terriers with a terrier nature and if you dont get on top of them while they are very young pups then there will be trouble ahead, Most of us "in westies" are dreading the film Greyfriars Bobby being released, it has a westie as Greyfriars Bobby, now it was not a westie, he was a Skye terrier, but, would the film producers listen, no, they thought a westie was "cuter" than a Skye, so I trouble ahead for our breed.

Oh Irene, tell me about it!!!!!! The problems caused by the "101 Dalmatians" films, you wouldn't believe! All you people in Westie rescue, make sure you have plenty of foster homes waiting 6 months or so after the film is released. You're going to need them! It was the same with St Bernards and the Beethoven films. Some puppy buyers have NO sense, and puppy farmers couldn't care less along as they get their dosh.

Do you remember the BBC series the other year called "The Magician's House"? Featured a talking Border Collie? After that was screened, at least one collie pup was taken to a rescue Kennel because the little daughter didn't want it any more because it wouldn't talk to her?!!!!! What on earth were the parents on? It makes me want to scream! This is why I don't breed any more.

Hi, I'm new to the board, and am having great fun so far:)
We are trying to avoid having the same problem the Dalmation owners had with Danes at the moment thanks to Scooby-Doo. People seem to think Danes should only be fawn and don't seem to realise that the little puppy WILL grow to a very large dog.
Also picking up on a thread from another board, we have a "lady" near us that breeds CockersXPoodles (Cockerpoos) very regularly, and charges big prices for them. She also crosses Poodles with Westies, Yorkies and Scotties. The sad thing is this woman should know better as she is a Veterinary nurse, but she has a waiting list for thses crosses so I guess the money talks louder.
Is it just me, or does anyone else find this really frustating??
Grace

Tell me about it. In common with a lot of board members I would think, when you have several dogs, the neighbourhood (apart from thinking your cracked) tend to treat you like a doggy Oracle. The things I am told or asked just blow my mind, and the level of general ignorance reagrding reponsibilities and the ethics surrounding breeding and ownership is amazing.

My worst favourite is, he came from a proper breeder, they breed all the time and have lots of different breeds!!!! Argh!!!! Or, Oh his parents don't need to have Health tests as they live on a farm!!!

Not forgetting the common misconception that just because it is a crossbreed it carries no hereditary defects! The breeds this woman is crossing, due to thier popularity can carry quite a burden of genetic problems, but this seems to be forgotten, so all the hard work being done by people who care about their breeds gets undone in an instant.
I know what you mean about being treated like a doggy Oracle. I have Danes and it never ceases to amaze me how little people reall know, not just about my breed, but dogs in general!

That's something I've never understood, people talk about crosses having hybrid vigour how can that cancel out any genetic problems that are in the breeds used?
Anne

The thing is Anne, suppose for example breed A carried Cataracts and PRA as a recessive gene and breed B carries Glaucoma and MRD as a recessive.

At first cross, because neither dog carries the same recessive problem THERE WILL BE NO PROBLEMS! What the people pushing the cross don't tell you is that the puppies now carry Cataract, PRA, Glaucoma and MRD as a recessive!

The second iteration, where the cross is mated to the cross then any or all of these hereditary ailments can come out because the dogs are literally walking time bombs.

Hope that makes it clearer.

Regards, John

Dear John,
Why won't people realise that a crossbreed or mongrel carries ALL the genes of ALL it's forebears??!! That crossing bad with bad DOESN'T equal good??!! A Lab with bad hips crossed with a GSD with bad hips means crossbred pups with the potential for bad hips?

Hybrid vigour is all very well, but it can't eradicate existing problems. But try telling that to the TV vets. Hah! Not a chance!

Thanks John,
That is exactly one of the many reasons why I will never breed, there are just soooooo many things to take into consideration.
I really wonder if many of the people who post about breeding from their dog know enough to know what they don't know.
I love my dogs and will post on training which I feel I have a little experience of, but would only direct people looking for pups to the breed clubs as I feel they need a wide range of options and I am only involved in a pet capacity.
By the way John you are brilliant at explaining things clearly,
Anne

I agree about terriers - people think , oh cute Westie - but they are terriers and can be just as tempermental and sometimes more than most breeds. I wouldn't argue with my mother's Westie - rather take on a big breed!! LOL! Yes, Greyfriars Bobby was Skye Terrier - definitely shouldn't use a Westie, but can you imagine the amount of people then looking for a Skye Terrier! We had a Corgi.......again, would rather face a p****d off Dobermann! AND BEFORE YOU SHOOT ME DOWN, THE SOPPIEST DOG I EVER MET WAS A DOBERMANN, AND I THINK THE BREED IS WONDERFUL!!!!!! AND THE SECOND SOPPIEST THAT I MET RECENTLY WAS A ROTTIE!

Shirley

PS My Vizsla is just wonderful, but my Rough Collie, now departed, was the softest dog I have ever come across, RIP Skye.

Hi Shirley,just read your post on Dobermans and Rotties,my mum has a Doberman x rottie and he had got to be the most stupid dog I have ever know,he is scared of his own shadow my mum has to make sure that she takes him out before it gets dark as he is scared of his own shadow.
Kim

Its not a Disney film is it? If not maybe it won't get as much exposure as 102 dalmations.

And with lovely cute Beardie pups, then they grow up and get hyper and chew and bring mud in and need grooming. In a way a welbehaved dog is a bad ad for a breed as people don't realise that that isn't how they come and it takes a lot of work to get to that point.
Border Collies can suffer from the easy to train label but they learn bad as easily as good and as with most dogs Satan finds work for idle paws.
Don't quite know where that came from
Anne

LOL @ Anne 'Satan makes work for idle paw' never a truer word spoken!!!! Julie:)

Hi all, I agree - I have lost count of the number of 'Mums' at school who have asked me about Labs (I'm the local doggy woman) as they are "easy and don't do much except lie around" and would be great to have "as they don't need much training!"! and want to know if I know of any litters locally - I do explain about labs and their needs and how strong they are and hope that some listen! Incidentally I can remember having a chat to someone in Lab Rescue (Kent) quite sometime ago and we were talking about chocolate labs, we were having a bit of a laugh , as I was telling her about a friends cockers who are chocolate (liver) and I was telling her how i think there is something linked with the chocolate gene to extra naughtiness (my friend and I call it the 'naughty chocolate gene' - when referring to her cockers!) but that aside I really agree - the latest 'thing' unfortunately seems to be Mastiffs of any description whether they be crosses or purebred :( Another point with the working line question is some breeders do not make it clear to prospective family purchasers that their dogs are working line, A Mum at school stopped me on friday and asked me to explain her new Springers pedigree as they didn't understand what FTCH meant!!! and told me she'd been looking at calenders at the garden centre and her dog looked nothing like the 'big springers with lovely coats' on the calender and come to that neither did the parents of the pup she saw!!!:( I explained it and she was shocked - she really thought her pup was show lines and didn't know enough about it and assumed the kc reg meant that the pups show lines! The breeder didn't mention it either! Now don't get me wrong they are happy with the pup, and it is doing well - its just not what they expected!

When any film comes out, you can't bet your bottom dollar, that the freeads/loot will be full of that particular breed:( :( :( its so sad:( and parents do buy on the strength of what the kids want - I shuddered when 'snow paws' (I think thats what it was called) came out! Julie:(

Julie,
Funny you should say that about colour as a friend said someone had told her that red Border Collies were different to others I laughed but we asked someone who is in Borders and they said they were of a different nature. My brown Beardie boy is certainly bouncier than any of my slates, but that could be sex rather than colour related
Anne

I know a bit of chocolate makes me jump around a lot happier.. :-)

Oh Oh sorry girls I was talking about the creamy edible stuff.

Pam

LOL @ Pam
Anne :-D

Now I'm having a bit of a panick. Do colour genes really make a difference and lets have some further info if you don't mind re: Chocolate labs. I have a black lab bitch and we are looking for a choc lab in the new year, well May/June time and I appreciate no two dogs will be the same, and at present am completely spoilt. I'm doing my homework in plenty of time so any advice re: breeders things to note, when should I start to visit breeders, are show breeds a lot different than breeders for gun sport, etc, a bit more from the people in the know would be appreciated. Cheers

Oh great there is a film that has been out for a while and that is called see, spot,run now those of you who have seen it will know there is a bullmastiff in there who is one of the stars in the film, we have got our long awaited bullmastiff now we waited 5 months to get what we wanted!! But the breeders all kept saying that loads of people where wanting them!!!
Lets hope they all do the shows and research and not just got one for the films sake!! I can imagine BIG dogs like bullies would be hard to rehome?????
Fingers crossed they actually genuinly wanted one like we did!!!!
I have pics if anyone wants to see him?
pinky

pinky - me me me!

Me - oh please don't panic - I really didn't mean anything by it - we were just joking about chocs honestly! I didn't mean to worry anyone by my post! If you do a search on 'working labrador or show labradors' there has been a recent thread about it, and there is info there on the subject (my own dogs are working lines) - sorry if I worried you Julie:)

Mattie can give you chapter and verse on chocolate Labs in rescue but considering its a minority colour there are a disproportionat number of chocolates in rescue compared with other colours. Whether the reason is that a good number of buyers of chocolate Labs are not looking for a Labrador, just an unusual dog and once the novelty wears off or the lack of training turns the dog into a demolision expert they get rid of it, or whether because of the fad or fashion the temprament has suffered I dont know. It is generally agreed that Chocs are slower maturing than blacks or yellows and don't find favour in the field. So saying, I know several choc's working in this area so to a certain extent it's a case of, "You pays yer money and takes yer chance."

Regards, John

Hi John
I cant comment on other breeds but I have found in bull terriers (Particularly APBTs) that the reds are slightly more laid back. I dont know why though.
Mick

Hi, I have black and chocolate labradors and I find that each one of my labs is totally different, the one chocolate bitch is so laid back but another is a thief and will chew through walls if she is left alone, the black is totally nuts and without spending time and commitment in training he would be a complete nightmare to own. So in my opinion colour does'nt matter but good breeding does.

I agree with you Tracey - good breeding - and responsible breeders and most important, good, responsible owners, I always found my pups to be like my childeren - I lay the ground rules and they must abide by them - result ..... well behaved, lovable and enjoyable. I have 10 Pekes and they are all totally different, each one has it's own personality, alot like us humans but they are reliant on us to pave the way for them and teach them right from wrong

Donna

Dont get me wrong, but where do you point the finger for the disproportional number of Choc's in rescue then? There has to be a reason, the law of averages says that over the long term things will equal out but in Labs they don't! There is really only three possibilites, poor dogs, poor breeders or poor owners? I'd be interested to hear your views. One thing is certain, on here almost two out of three enquiries for Labs is for choc's and each time I see them I wonder if it is another one for rescue in the near future!

John

Hi John,
Do you think there's any link with the fact that chocolate Labs were originally seen as a fault? I had thought that was just personal choice originally that whoever was responsible for recording Labs didn't like chocolate colours. I know that's what happened with Tibetan Terriers. At the moment a chocolate TT is seen as a fault.

Dot

I think I'm coming down on the side of the old story to a certain extent Dot. Working people breed for one thing, brains. Show people breed for one thing, looks! The first choc I saw was around 40 years ago when a person brought one to the club I was at. She had travelled over a hundred miles to get it from literally unknown lines. Paid way over the odds just because it was a rare colour!

People soon realised there was good money in them and so the start of today’s problem began. Labradors come in three colours as we all know but how often do you see someone on here wanting a black or yellow? In order to supply demand the size of the gene pool is reduced and any problems in one line are so much more evident than would be the case if the gene pool was breed wide. A similar thing has happened in Goldens. Since the fashion for almost white Golden retrievers we are seeing a disproportionate amount of eye test failures!

Fashions have a lot to answer for!

Regards, John

Thanks for that John. The woman who introduced TT's to the western world was a doctor so maybe she thought there was something in the make up of a chocolate dog. I had read it was just her preference but who knows. I've also heard of some breeders charging extra for choc TT's because it's a rare colour :rolleyes:

I agree about fashions. I remember when we had a Pyrenean Mountain Dog, she was 30" to the shoulder and breeders started breeding them smaller to make them "more appealing" for "town" dogs. Some of them were bred hardly bigger than Samoyeds. Thank goodness they started to return to their true size. As for Goldens, when we had them, some were being bred nearly as white as PMD's.

That's one thing about TT's. They've only been bred by westerners since the 1920's so, touch wood, so far they don't seem to have strayed much from the original type. I think TT clubs can thank Dr Greig (who introduced them) for that as she was apparantly quite fanatical about breeding true to type. I wonder if they'll still be the same in 100 years ;)
Dot

The problem was still around then John, my first ever rescue dog when I was a child 40 years ago was a chocolate lab, it was widely assumed by people in the village I lived in that it had ended up in rescue due to it's colour, there certainly weren't any other obvious problems. Ingrid

I believe the old time breeders used to cull the chocolate/liver coloured ones as undesirable .
Now the chocolates are fairly common and they certainly are cropping up more and more in rescue :( and are not rare at all.

A nieghbour of ours has Chocolate labs, the first one they had was lovely, really sweet dog. I don't know anything of their breeding, but she had a daughter and they then got a third who was either grand-daughter or another daughter. Anyway, these 2 were nightmares, very 'grumpy' and aggressive to other dogs - I thought at the time it was because they had bred to keep the chocolate gene they had sacrificed on temperament. Maybe this is happening? :(
Also, there was that advert recently (for a body spray or something?) had 3 chocolate puppies being walked by a woman - absolutely adorable of course but I wonder if that has had any effect?

The very worse thing that could ever happen to Labs is that one would go best in show at Crufts :( and worse still a chocolate !!!!

I have read and agree with what people have been saying about chocolates and really do think that the fashion accessory thing is so true. It is also down to breeders breeding for the colour rather than the health and temperamant of the dogs. I do however think as well that alot of the deliquents are also to blame due to the ignorance of people who know nothing about how to raise a dog to be a well balanced, well mannered part of the family if it is just to be a pet rather than a working or show dog.
I have had chocolates ever since I got married. I first saw one when I was a young girl and fell in love with them and always vowed that I would own one one day. My mum had a black Lab when she was a young girl and my Aunt and Uncle have had them as well and so I had always loved Labs what ever colour!
My three Chocolate girls are/were some of the most well behaved well balanced girls I know and people have commented so many times when they first meet them on what well behaved loving Labs they are! This is because or the hard work we put in to making sure they are like that ! The only thing we have not been able to crack is the table manners. I still have not got them to say pardon when belching after dinner !

I do wish people when getting a dog spend a lot more time looking into the time and responsibilities of having a dog and talking to people who have got the right experience to help, rather like a lot of people who use this site and Lab rescue's site ! :D

Lucy

I agree with you Lucy that a lot of the problem comes from the owners but I also feel that (and don’t get me wrong, yourself and other Choc owners on here that I have seen post, sound like very responsible people,) a lot of the owners who give the appearance of looking towards the novelty value of owning a choc, (Or an awful lot of the Labradoodle posts) do not have either the knowledge or the interest in training ANY Labrador! The instant dog philosophy! A metallic robot dog would be more suitable!

I do also feel that at least some breeders are also to blame. Breeding Chocolate Labradors is to me not the same thing as Breeding Labradors! The emphasis is on the colour rather than the breed and that is the tail wagging the dog!

I went against my judgment when I brought my own Bethany. Although a yellow, she was bred by a breeder of choc's. She hyperactive to the point of desperation went epileptic at 18 months old and developed cataracts at 8 years old. I must say she was my all time favourite but boy, was that dog hard work!

Regards, John

>>The very worse thing that could ever happen to Labs is that one would go best in show at Crufts

Not just Labs Mattie. It is the kiss of death for so many breeds :-(

I never even thought of that! Every year I lament the fact that my own personal favourites don't get a look in - but how can I now wish any of them to win? :(