Well, I'm expecting my first litter. I've thought long and hard about joining the AB scheme. I do know of a couple of people on it who I would quite happily term puppy farmers, a while ago I decided not to join as I didn't want to be associated with that sort of practice. But I have decided I will join, I will be probationary until my first litter is registered.
I was slightly worried at the prospect of an inspection, official = worry! However, reading this thread I was clearly concerned over the totally wrong things. Sounds as though I should now be concerned over the fact my 5 dogs live in the house, I have 5 crates in the kitchen for them to go into as and when they wish, I was all the dog bowls in my dishwasher!!! Their bedding gets washed in my washing machine and I get to wear their fluff when I do my washing and the whelping box is set up in my bedroom. They hog the sofa and they think nothing of shoving me off the bed. I am now wondering whether to apply.

Sorry this is very long but in defence of all those breeders failing their inspections I want to explain that things are not always as cut and dried as they might first appear.

Naturally, until you have been inspected it is easy to think that all the people inspected and failing must be falling well short on welfare and care standards.  Clearly some will be, however others such as the breeder mentioned by MarianneB and kayc are not poor breeders just because they have failed an ACB inspection.

When breed advisors visit Accredited Breeder members to ensure compliance with the scheme, the advisor is checking to see that the 10 mandatory requirements are met plus their new mandatory requirement of compliance with local authority guidelines.

The Kennel Club have a document called 'Expectations of Good Management'. This document is a plagiarized version of the Breeding and Sale of Dogs Act 1973 (section 4) and is based on the "Guidance and Model Conditions" used by local authority environmental health officers when assessing a breeding establishment for licensing purposes.

Many of the points covered in the KC's "Expectations of Good Management" document are to do with care and welfare and are most easily judged in relation to a traditional kennel set up and not a home breeder.  

For example, in the home environment many people will wash their dogs food bowls in their own kitchen sink (or dare I say put them in the dishwasher with everything else!).  Under the "rules" a separate sink should be provided for washing dog bowls.  This could of course be a utility room sink but basically must be one that is not used for human crockery.  Additionally, puppies must not be whelped or kept in the kitchen (for human health/hygiene reasons).

Isolation facilities must be in place; these must be at least 5 meters away from any other dog kept at the premises.  A fire and safety drill must be in place with plans for evacuation of dogs from the premises in the event of a fire and a 'risk assessment' must be carried out to ensure the safety of the dogs at all times.

Whilst the above are sensible and I'm not suggesting that they aren't important what I am saying is that perfectly good, caring, conscientious and committed people looking after their dogs in their home as part of the family may not be meeting these requirements either because they are not aware of the need to meet them or because the home environment can be so variable that situations vary from home to home.

It doesn't mean their dogs are at risk or in danger and it doesn't mean they aren't well cared for and leading fantastic lives but it does mean that some excellent breeders will fail the inspection because they rear their dogs in the home and not a kennel.

Depending on the size of their home, number of rooms and facilities available they may not meet all the requirements from a 'jobs worth' point of view! 

Each advisor will have a 'crib sheet' to follow but naturally, there is room for a subjective view and some will realise that the home breeder is doing a great job even if they do for example wash the dog bowls in their own sink and sadly, others will take the "black and white line" and grade them a 2 or a 1. 

3 is deemed acceptable, grade 1 is a complete failure and 2 is marginally unacceptable.  If there are a few grade 2 scores or even a one grade 1 then the breeder will be suspended and advice given to what is required to raise standards.  Unfortunately for some breeders, despite doing a great job and caring for their dogs well, if they are for example "failed" for washing the dogs bowls in their own sink and don't have the room to install another sink then they will not meet the standards.

The other thing to mention is that when members join the scheme there are 10 mandatory requirements plus six recommendations.  All good breeders will meet these 16 items and more without a problem.   However, there is now this vague statement which says breeders must also adhere with local authority guidelines; exactly what these are is not specified.  However, these 'guidelines' are the "Expectations of Good Management."  Breeders are being judged on criteria to which they are not really sure what they should or should not be meeting and this is unfair and it should come as no surprise to find that good and conscientious breeders looking after their dogs in their home to high welfare standards are being suspended pending improvements being made.

I have been inspected and I've been suspended too!  When I agreed to the visit, I naively assumed that as I was meeting the requirements that the visit would be straightforward.  Please don't think I'm being arrogant, I'm not.  It's just that I wrongly assumed that I was providing a good home for my dogs in every regard and supporting my puppy owners etc. together with breeding and rearing my puppies to high standards taking into consideration health, temperament, welfare, socialisation etc. etc.  I say wrongly assumed, in reality the assumption is not wrong, having been inspected by a qualified person from my local authority it has been shown that the only misconception was that of the KC advisor!

The gentleman that visited me was an experienced breeder who keeps his own dogs in a traditional kennel setting and not the home.  He was new to the scheme and I think I was possibly only the second person he'd visited.  I also asked him what training he'd received and he nonchalantly shrugged his shoulders and said it was more a case of "the advisors telling the KC what they should be doing."  Doesn't fill you with confidence does it!!!

I wasn't asked many questions and out of the few that were asked they were very obscure, for example I was asked how many staff I employed to look after my dogs!  This is clearly a family home, with happy dogs sharing our home and enjoying a good lifestyle in every respect.  We have a large home and good facilities for our dogs.  They are important to us and are cared for to high standards within a home environment.  Why he should think we have staff to look after our dogs is a mystery!! 

I was then asked if I'd done a 'risk assessment'.  When I looked quizzical, he was surprised.  I asked him what I should have done a risk assessment on, he didn't reply.  I then pushed him and said I'd do one on the 'fly' if he asked me the questions.  Again, I got no reply.

He wasn't interested in where I whelped the pups or how I reared or cared for my pups or their socialisation etc.  All he wanted to do was scrutinize the care standards for my adult dogs.

I was advised the visit would take up to 2 hours; my advisor was in and out the door in approximately 40 minutes.  The entire time he was uncommunicative, cool and detached in behaviour.  It was like a 'military inspection', no talking, no banter, no friendliness and more importantly no recommendations or helpful advice.  He appeared flustered and uncomfortable, he also appeared to be lacking in confidence (these are my personal opinions based on my interaction with him).  The only time he 'thawed' was when he was surrounded by my dogs who gave him a warm welcome.

I scored 3 for all points (there are 31 areas of scrutiny) but I failed on the following due to being graded 2:

1.  I provide too much care information in my puppy pack - the advisor said people wouldn't read it all as it was too lengthy.

2.  Isolation facilities.  Our dogs are house dogs and have free roam of the house for most of the day and evening.  I explained that any dog suspected of contracting an infectious illness would be kept in the study pending veterinary advice.  The study is over 5 meters away from my kitchen and sitting room etc.  He didn't measure the distance but he scored me a 2 as he said it was "unacceptable to have an isolation facility in a separate room within the home". (perhaps I should build a shed at the bottom of the garden????)

3.   Fire drill.  I showed the advisor that we have numerous hard wired smoke detectors throughout the house and we also have several strategically placed full sized fire extinguishers. We also have leads by all exits from the house.  I explained that as house dogs, in the event of a fire they would be put onto leads and evacuated with the family to a safe location.  He disagreed with this routine and graded me a 2.

4.   Routine with the dogs.  I was asked to provide a daily routine i.e. dogs get up at 7am and go to bed at Midnight, in-between times I was asked to list walk times, feeding times etc. etc.  I explained that as house dogs they rise and go to bed when we go to bed, they are not kennelled and therefore put to bed at a set time earlier in the evening.

I was graded 2 on this as I personally "only sleep for 5.5 hrs per night"!!!!  Can you really believe that - I thought that was totally ridiculous for what should have been a professional audit of my compliance with the scheme.  What has how much sleep I have got to do with anything??  The advisor commented favourably in his report on the health, temperament, behaviour and condition of the dogs, the high standards of cleanliness, the exercise routine, feeding and general care of the dogs etc. so it's not as if my sleep patterns affect my ability to care for the dogs!

5.  Overall facilities.  The facilities available for the number of dogs owned (we don't have many dogs - medium sized gundog breed) was deemed marginally unacceptable.  I explained that we have a large house (well largeish!) at 2,500 sq meters. Our kitchen is 25 feet x 16 feet, sitting room the same size and study 15 foot square etc. We have a 17 ft by 12 ft dog room for trimming etc. too. As house dogs they have plenty of room and plenty of sofas to lie on!  We have a reasonable sized back garden together with a large all weather covered dog run.  There is oodles of room for our dogs and us in our house!  Our dogs have more room per dog than a kennel dog would get with a kennel and run!

In the report that followed the visit under the section entitled steps needed to raise standards to accredited breeder levels, I was advised that no improvement was required for the areas graded 2 apart from the fire drill and isolation facilities.  In order to demonstrate my compliance with the isolation facilities and fire procedure I was told to obtain a dog breeders license from my local authority. I haven't been 'kicked off" the scheme, I've been suspended until improvements are made.

I have begrudgingly acquired a dog breeder's license.  I haven't altered anything at home and I showed the inspector the same things that the advisor was shown.  The inspection was unannounced and thorough. The inspector was knowledgeable, qualified, and experienced and thought everything here was excellent including the fire drill and isolation facilities! The inspector explained that our facilities and the condition of our dogs including their living environment were "exemplarily" and she had no hesitation in granting a license.

Said license has now been sent to the KC as requested together with a strongly worded letter and I await the outcome!

I know I've been on the receiving end of a visit and failed so perhaps you will determine I'm biased.  However, I can honestly say that the inspection didn't cover what I thought it would or should cover in relation to the terms of membership and it was cold and clinical.  I am not discrediting the inspector either in an attempt to gain sympathy; I'm just stating my personal experience of the visit I received.

The areas I failed on were totally subjective and that is a great disservice to breeders as it means that each inspector will judge a breeder by their own standards and not a set standard.  I can honestly say I was embarrassed and disillusioned to find I'd failed the inspection by the KC and I've thought long and hard about posting this message.

The Accredited Breeder Scheme according to the Kennel Club's own published literature is designed to "promote good breeding practices, giving prospective owners the best opportunity to bring home a healthy well adjusted puppy." 

I think all good breeders will meet this objective, it is a pity though that there is a 'hidden agenda' by which breeders are judged.  It is right and proper that the welfare of a breeders adult dogs is assessed and I have no complaint about that, rather I am complaining about the lack of openness and honesty displayed by the KC about EXACTLY what a breeder is being inspected for, the lack of training and support of their inspectors and the room for personal opinion overriding common sense.

Although the inspector gave the grades and the Kennel Club made the judgment call about suspension, I can tell you that the suspension arose due to the number of items graded a 2.  Out of the grade 2's I can honestly say I don't believe they were accurate and I say this because clearly providing a detailed and comprehensive puppy pack shouldn't be criticised and neither should the amount of time I sleep (given the dogs are well maintained) be down graded.  As for isolation facilities, these were measured by the local authority inspector and found to be more than the required 5 meters away from the other dogs and wholly appropriate.  The fire procedures were also more than adequate and the dogs safety was deemed not to be at risk.  Therefore they shouldn't have been graded a 2 in the first instance and then there wouldn't have been sufficient grade 2 scores to suspend me!  The scoring was down to the advisor and not the KC.

Sounds like you live at my house trialist (except for my luxury, dogs only, sink ;-)) I too have the furry clothes as a result of not having a separate washing machine :-)

Having read the post from Chris, I think I will save myself a few bob when my AB membership comes up for renewal.  Does anyone at the Kennel Club read this board?  I think they should.  This is not the way to encourage responsible people to join the scheme :-(

Do you mind if I ask why you needed a LA License.  I am assuming you don't breed more than 4 litters a year?

Surely the normal domestic set up should be fin for those breeding small scale.

I can understand them applying model rules if the level of breeding reaches that of needing a License.

I applied for ABS status last year and have just renewed, I am just about to home my first litter under the scheme, and embark on the extra paperwork.

Why be suspended? Why not tell them where to stick it?

I too am a member of the ABS and if I suffer the same type of inspection I will have to remove myself from the scheme.

My dogs sleep on my bed ( if they wish) loll around anywhere they like in the house and not only eat from my kitchen but my plate if I want them to.

If the point of the ABS is to lift us amateurs to the position of professionals then I want no part of it.

> If the point of the ABS is to lift us amateurs to the position of professionals then I want no part of it.

It's supposed to be about the care we take of our dogs, pups and breed surely, not good housekeeping/Ideal home.

If one of my dogs was ill, it would come up to sleep in my bedroom, where I could better care for her.

So what isolation facilities are we supposed to have if one of our children or spouses is ill.  God forbid.

Pst, the dog bowls go in the dishwasher once a week (for a high temperature blast) with my own dishes.  Rest of the time they are washed in the sink where anything else is washed.  Horror of horrors my dogs prewash pots and casserole dishes!

jacksgirl - I dream of moving ... I dream of designing my own house (actually, quite realistic as it turns out!) ... in that house I'm dreaming of ... A DOGGY ROOM!! A friend came around to visit today to help me do some 'clearing', she brought her mum with her. Whilst friend and I were 'clearing' Mum was cleaning the living room floor, using the sole of her foot to scuff up all the dog fluff! They asked me what vacuum cleaner I'd got!!! I've actually got a very nice Dyson Animal, which I'm dead pleased with. Problem was, I hadn't used it for 2 days 'cause I've had a stinking cold and been trying to ensure I'm ready for pups! Heck, what would an inspector think? :-0
Wow, luxury dog sink - must remember to include that one in my dream house design - do you have marigolds with paw prints on?! ;-)

I've made a decision ... I'm going to communicate with the KC (there is a very nice lady I've already been communicating with) and I'm going to raise my concerns following this thread. Not going to mention Forums or anything like that, but I will ask for their comments seeing as I'm about to send the forms off. Will keep you posted of their response :-)

Chris - sorry, only just picked up on your posting. Half way through your post I was tempted to ask "who are you?" as you came across very much like a KC bod! However, on further reading I realise you're a KC victim. What you outline is ludicrous, and if that is what the KC are looking for then why the h*** don't they state that in the ABS literature. I've just looked at what I've got and there is NOTHING at all that even covers the silliest of points you've mentioned.

I had planned to e-mail the KC tomorrow, but I feel a telephone call coming on. They really have got a very long way to go to sort themselves out re what they determine good and bad practice.

Sorry to hear about your ordeal.

Having read Chris' post and the posts from other breeders on here can I just say that I would far prefer to(and always have) buy a puppy from breeders whose dogs and puppies are raised in the home with them. I have no interest in how clean and tidy their home is (beyond the fact that it isn't covered in dog excrement) or how long they sleep for or even where they wash their dishes. I am interested in how they look after their dogs and puppies, the health testing they do and if they seem the kind of people that I could rely on to help with advice if I should have problems with a puppy. I am not and never have been a breeder but if this is what the KC think that puppy buyers are worried about then they are very, very far from the mark. They need to revisit these standards and re-word them in terms of the establishment visited. There is absolutely no point in having standards that the vast majority of home breeders would have no hope of meeting, that is just nonsense. Did the KC even ask breeders/dog owners what they thought should be included in a standard for AB status or did they just pluck rules from Local Authorities which do not even apply to most home breeders? Little wonder people don't want to be invoved with this scheme - lets face it the OP's story makes a nonsense of the whole thing anyway!

jacksgirl - I dream of moving ... I dream of designing my own house (actually, quite realistic as it turns out!) ... in that house I'm dreaming of ... A DOGGY ROOM!! A friend came around to visit today to help me do some 'clearing', she brought her mum with her. Whilst friend and I were 'clearing' Mum was cleaning the living room floor, using the sole of her foot to scuff up all the dog fluff! They asked me what vacuum cleaner I'd got!!! I've actually got a very nice Dyson Animal, which I'm dead pleased with. Problem was, I hadn't used it for 2 days 'cause I've had a stinking cold and been trying to ensure I'm ready for pups! Heck, what would an inspector think? :-0
Wow, luxury dog sink - must remember to include that one in my dream house design - do you have marigolds with paw prints on?! 

Luxury dog sinks will be the way to go if you are a KCAB by the sound of it ;-)  I have a utility room and decided to have an extra sink put in there.  Like you, if I had the brass, I could design a doggie paradise without a need for outdoor kennels.  Until then, I will just have to put up with my hairy friends sharing almost all of my surroundings :-)

Hi Dakkobear.  Please, please write to the Kennel Club and say the same thing.  Your's is the most sensible post I have seen (from the other side of the fence :-))

Sorry jacksgirl, decided a spot of one upmanship is required. My dream doggy house, sorry, I mean house, now has a doggy dishwasher situated in the doggy room (which in all reality will only be used when I'm rushing around and don't want a wave of fluff moving around with me or when they've been out in the mud). Wonder if the KC ABS inspectors will approve of that?

I think the topic has moved slightly off topic... so with regards to the original poster it does sadden me that the KC is willing to register the litter and it does make one wonder if the KC have their priorities in the right place, and if the above breeder is part of any breed club then I hope that the respective club will have some harsh words with the person and kick them out, otherwise whats the point?

Chris -thank you so much for sharing all of this. I am horrified but sadly not surprised. With what you have outlined, I know there is no way I would pass an inspection. However breeders that kennel ALL their dogs no doubt would! (I have no such thing as a utility room sink for a start, we have our kitchen sink and the bathroom basin and that's it!) Yet the great majority of my puppy buyers come to me saying they picked me BECAUSE my dogs are not kenneled and live in the house.

I have checked and she does not appear to be a member of any of our local breed clubs. Although the thread has been hijacked to some degree I have enjoyed reading what others perceive of the AB scheme. Personally I won't join because I do not believe it has enough credence to be successful and knowing that they are happy to accept the breeder that my original thread was about I do not wish to be part of it. However, seeing other peoples experience then I now know that I wouldn't be accepted. Dogs sleep in our bedroom, we wash the dishes in the same sink after our own dishes are washed. Dogs are often on the leather (plastic) sofa and I don't have kennels or runs. But I prefer my dogs existence than the existence the KC would prefer them to have.

Hi Brainless

My local authority determined from my circumstances and breeding record that I did NOT need a license.  They did go on to say that, "whilst many breeders are not required to be licensed many opt to be licensed as the council believe it demonstrates a commitment to good breeding practices and welfare". 

Our local authority appears to be quite conscientious and they are not an authority who will license 'puppy farmers' etc., and I was advised that they expect the conditions set out in the "Model Conditions" to be exceeded and not just met.

They also explained the majority of licensed breeders in our area are domestic breeders.  The "Guidance and Model Conditions" is split into requirements for domestic and none domestic breeders (kennels).   The conditions I quoted in my earlier post were for domestic breeders.  The requirements for none domestic breeders are more precise and stringent.  However, for domestic breeders the separate sink, whelping area, isolation facilities and fire procedure still apply.

I guess what I'm saying really is that the difference between the two inspections (although covering broadly the same requirements) was that the local authority inspector was experienced in assessing the domestic breeding environment and she was more accepting that different homes will offer different facilities whilst still ensuring that welfare, care and safety are of paramount importance.

Sorry everyone to hijack the original post, just replying to the AB thread really.

> I was all the dog bowls in my dishwasher!!!

So do I!!  Horrors!  My stuff on the top shelf, and dog bowls on the bottom!  Suppose I'll die of some awful disease now.

But to be honest, the dishwasher water will be a lot hotter than my hands could stand.

As for beds, I guess I would be shot down in flames.  I still have my Toy Poodle bed (I lost her a year ago.)  And it tickles me pink when one of the Collies decides to curl up tiny and get in it.

Hi tooolz

My first reaction was to tell them to stick it!  However then I got to thinking that I felt aggrieved by the whole visit and the outcome and so I thought I would get the license (well assuming it was granted!) and then I could say that their comments were taken on board but that not only didn't I agree with them but neither did the professional and suitably qualified inspector that they 'twisted my arm' into inviting here for an inspection.

Not convinced it was a hijack bearing in mind the breeder the original posting referred to was in the ABS. What you have done is raise some extremely important issues, that obviously many were unaware of.  Thank you for being so open with your experience :-)

Thank you Trialist.  I must confess I didn't really want to 'wash my dirty linen in public" as that's not my style.  It is rather embarrassing to admit failure especially as the showing fraternity have demonstrated on more than one occasion that there "must be no smoke without fire"!!

However as I was told by my advisor that the "Kennel Club have 5,000 scheme members at the moment and their aim is to have all 15,000 breeders in this country as scheme members by 2015", that existing members (like myself) and people considering membership should be aware of the new requirement that members "will operate to high standards and duty of care and comply with any local authority requirements."

I received a letter about 6 days before the visit with a copy of the "Expectations of Good Management." Having read it, I still assumed I was meeting the requirements even though this aspect of scheme membership was new to me (as an existing member).  I couldn't have been more shocked and dismayed at the findings of the visit! 

It was only after the visit (I felt it didn't go that well as I asked my advisor whilst he was here whether I'd 'passed muster" and I got a stone faced reply to say "I'm afraid I'm not allowed to tell you") that I did a Google search for the words used in the document supplied to me and my search brought up the relevant 1973 breeding act and the "Model Licensing Conditions".

Therefore, when I was waiting for the inspection I assumed that the 10 known requirements of scheme membership would be the main focus and that normal domestic care of my dogs would form the inspection relating to the "Expectations of Good Management."   As it turned out the 10 mandatory requirements didn't really get assessed and were not really discussed.  I had set up my whelping box and equipment and I had to almost force the breed advisor to look at it.  He really wasn't that interested.  All he really wanted to know was how many staff I had, what the fire drill was and the isolation facilities etc.

I wasn't prepared for the 31 areas of inspection. Fortunately, I 'passed' everything bar those items already mentioned. 

Luckily, I had the good sense not to tell him that we wash our dogs bowls in the dishwasher (I showed him the utility sink for bowl washing and as a food preparation area), I didn't tell him we sleep with our dogs when needed (especially if we think they may be 'under the weather') and I didn't tell him we share our food, forks and plates with our dogs amongst many other very 'unhygienic' practices!

I note with interest the recent posts about inspections and will be asking questions of the Kennel Club tomorrow about some of the seemly
stupid criteria that cause folk to fail.
I am a ABS member who has not yet had an inspection. I look forward to this as I shall not be making any changes to my system which is all part and parcel of raising the Well Balanced Pup and have taken time and effort to make sure that to the best of my ability my pups are
(1)
Of great temperament
(2)
Healthy (all known health checks for breed + DNA)
(3)
Have happy parents and other family member to help raise them so their dog language is great
(4)
Are given the best of socialization so they are ready for our silly human lifestyle
(5)
The new owners are chosen with great care and have to be the right person/persons for a particular puppy Long meets are sometimes necessary so over night stay is offered for people far away

I am a farmer NOT A PUPPY FARMER and the dogs share a large barn with 12 foot square runs along side the lambing or fattening sheep a couple of ponies and often hedgehogs or any other wildlife needing care and rehabilitation. They are also house dogs and several sleep in my bedroom and share the family life.They also have indoor pens in under housing shippon which is the same temperature summer or winter and very useful.They have straw beds to dry up farm mud and wet and lots of access to roll in sheep and pony or cow muck as do the pups when they are out with the adult pack in the front field.I do believe that much cleanliness's is bad for all young animals and children. Common sense
should be the key.
The dog dishes are washed in the home dishwasher and dog wash is in the domestic washing machine. I do have a large outside sink in the lambing shed but this is only cold water and I will not pretend that I do not use the domestic equipment
The pups all travel from an early age with their mother and the ones that are to be future search and rescue dogs are introduced to Sea King helicopters and even go into the chopper if the occasion arises I wonder what the inspector will think to that.The pups that go to family homes are introduced to cars trains buses shops etc and anything else thought useful.
I think more should be looked at as to wether over breeding is occurring (3/4 litters in a life time is enough for any dog) and if the pups are sold too early or even taken away from their mother before 8 week even on their own premises.
If and when I am informed I shall be having an inspection I shall send the person coming a copy of the DVD made here showing the methods used to raise our pups so they will not find it too much of a shock.
I think the KC and other interested parties should look at sensible caring raising methods and take the good from all breeders and pass good practice on to all.All caring breeders have something to offer and we can all learn from and help each other and the ABS could be the way to do this.They could as part of their input enrole lawers etc to produce a very good puppy contract that will stand up in court.In this way they could really make a difference to stamping out bad breeders/owners and puppy farms.

and dog wash is in the domestic washing machine. I do have a large outside sink in the lambing shed but this is only cold water and I will not pretend that I do not use the domestic equipment

i am sure you mean this is for dog bedding ect,  but to someone with half a brain they may think you put your dogs in the washing machine !

I'm pretty sure dog wash refers to the washing of dog bedding! There are no half brainers on CD!! :-) I always say I'm going to do a dog wash, don't think anyone's thought I'm meaning shoving the dogs in a maching, however, an ABS inspector may, I guess?

I have e mailed Bil Lambert this morning and I await his reply and reassurances

Diane

Goodo, I've just e-mailed the ABS section ... also awaiting their reply! :-)

Bill is out of the office until Monday 28th.....auto reply

Diane

Always the way when you want a response ... NOW!! :-)

There are some very important issues here so I am happy to wait for a considered, reasoned, reassuring response from Bill

Diane

There are some overall points which are troubling me, ones which seem to be at odds with amateur/hobby breeding.

What has washing my dogs dishes alongside my own got to do with the KC or my ability to produce 1st rate puppies other than I shouldnt offer prospective puppy owners a cup of coffee but what has it got to do with the health of my dogs - the KC's 1st priority?

Or for that matter a Risk Assessment and from that I assume a written one in PC nanny-state terminology not my 30 odd years of common sense.

I would sincerely hope that the KC are not confusing what is best for my dogs with what looks like an ideal breeding establishment in the public's eyes and those of official agencies.

Well this has made very interesting reading. It just goes to show that the KC need to conform all the rules and regs. On one hand a "Breeder" is allowed to get away with the sort of behaviour shown by the OP's first post while showing overly enthusiastic controls over good hobby breeders like Chris (Thanks for your sorry tale Chris I apreciate how hard it was to tell). One thing to remember Chris is that although they do not approve!! of your care etc...you wil not be stopped from registering your pups??? Double standards in the KC or what?
I too am an AB and have two accolades...I have never had an inspection but feel I  would be likely to fail. I have but one sink in the kitchen..SHAME ON ME!...however I do not wash up in it !! I use the dishwasher...for human and dog dishes..Shock horror!!! The dogs do have beds and they are in the utility room, but the girlies only sleep in there at night and sprawl out through out the house and garden by day. My pups are born in the lounge and move on to the ...."DINING ROOM"...at 3 weeks. They are placed in a huge run in the garden by day and sleep in the huge pen in the dining room by night, Oh and I wash thier bowls in the dishwasher too!!!! I happily cook our meals with an attentive audience in the kitchen hoovering up any slips!! and eat from a tray (Most often) on our laps in from of the TV with my wonderfull girls for company! I do not have an isolation room/kennel/prison as I would never isolate a sick dog and would nurse it in the home like a child. Anyone with a smidgen of sence would know that the infectious time is usually before any symptoms show so what piont then in isolation? We do not have a fire drill in operation after 15 years in this house I know the location of the doors and windows!! We do have fire alarm though, Ha! we are not silly!!
I do not have a big house but it is fine for us and the girlies...I do not have an outside kennel and if I did I would never use it. My dogs are family members and I will not have it any other way. I hope I breed the occasional good happy healthy health checked and well cared for litter. if the KC choose to exclude me fom the AB in favour of big breeders then so be it... I will  not lose any sleep over it, My consience is as clear as a bell.
Aileen

What has washing my dogs dishes alongside my own got to do with the KC or my ability to produce 1st rate puppies other than I shouldnt offer prospective puppy owners a cup of coffee but what has it got to do with the health of my dogs - the KC's 1st priority?

Exactly!!!!!

> I would sincerely hope that the KC are not confusing what is best for my dogs with what looks like an ideal breeding establishment in the public's eyes and those of official agencies.

Seems to be similar to judge evaluation.  They seem to be primarily  interested in the judges management of the ring, dress even.  The exhibitors are interested in whether the judges judgements, can they recognise type, and sound conformation based on the breed standard.

You have raised a valid point tooolz. 

From my inspection, it became readily apparent that the 31 areas of inspection were broadly similar to those of local authority inspection.  I was not really prepared for that as I assumed there would be 10 areas of inspection to comply with the 10 mandatory requirements of scheme membership.

Obviously, from MarianneB and kayc posts the breeder they refer to received a similar inspection to the one I received (otherwise the washing of dog bowls in the kitchen sink wouldn't have arisen).

The correspondence I received from the KC seemed to be fairly standard and therefore I assume that each breed advisor is checking for the 31 requirements encompassing the headings:

Breeder (points a - p) - this covers the 10 mandatory points plus the 6 recommendations and local authority requirements
Facilities (points a - f) - this covers lighting, temperature, ventilation, safety, risk assessment, infectious disease control, isolation facilities, cleanliness, food storage and preparation, and security
Dogs Welfare (points a - i) - this covers water/food, dogs' physical appearance, size of quarters, bedding, behaviour, exercise, daily routine, staffing levels and whelping facilities.

I think the above inspection points are new (well fairly new) and may not have formed part of inspections until more recently.

As I've said before, I don't have a problem with any of these areas of inspection.  All I'm saying is that members should know EXACTLY what is required of them and not have to wait to be visited, to be found lacking and then find themselves suspended as to the 'outside world' this gives the false impression that standards must be very poor which results in breeders being suspended.

It does nothing to promote a scheme which the Kennel Club are pushing as the way forward for responsible dog breeding to find that 20% of members are failing inspections (quoted earlier) and that 60% (quoted earlier) are resigning when faced with an inspection. 

Again, to the 'outside world' it might be easy to say that the 60% of resignations arise due to breeders having 'something to hide' when in reality it is likely that a significant number of breeders suddenly become aware that despite what most people would consider good breeding practices and standards of health, care and welfare that they would not meet the terms of the scheme.

I also maintain that a bit of common sense is needed to take into consideration the huge variety of domestic situations and to weigh up whether a breeder is keeping with the sprit of the scheme which is to "promote good breeding practices, giving prospective owners the best opportunity to bring home a healthy well adjusted puppy."

In reality, I'm forced to conclude (just my own thoughts) that there are probably three categories of breeder.  Namely, 'pet' breeders who keep one or two bitches and have a litter occasionally for reasons other than for showing/working/ other disciplines, large scale 'commercial' breeders who maintain kennels and breed as a business and finally 'hobby" show/working/other disciplines breeders who may have kennels but more likely keep their dogs within the home.

The KC assessment appears to be easier to pass when there are fewer 'grey areas'. For example, 'pet' breeders who keep their dogs in the home are considered 'amateurs' and are therefore granted more leeway, 'commercial' breeders keeping dogs in kennels and are already licensed will most always automatically comply and then finally 'hobby' breeders who breed for show/working/other disciplines are somewhere between the two extremes.  This is the tricky area.  Because the activities of 'hobby' breeders are seen to be 'professional' (not in a business sense but more in a commitment sense i.e. well thought out breeding plans, full health testing, careful rearing and socialisation, vetting owners etc. etc.)  that less leeway is granted and that although they are hobby breeders breeding for their dog related activities and not simply to produce puppies for sale they are not considered 'amateurs' and therefore they are not 'cut as much slack' as the 'pet' breeders and are assessed more from a 'professional' standpoint as opposed to an 'amateur' standpoint.

Therefore, I think that 'pet' breeders and 'commercial' breeders who are scheme members might find the inspection process straightforward and 'hobby' breeders are the ones most likely to encounter areas of non compliance (especially if they keep their dogs in the home and not suitably constructed and appropriate kennels).

> I held off joining the AB scheme until last year as I had misgivings about some of the 'breeders' who had joined in the early days.  However, statements made by the KC regarding tightening up of standards etc reassured me and I took the plunge.  I'm now beginning to wonder if I did the right thing......

And ditto with me.     

I did join in the beginning, but the feedback about poor breeders on the scheme made me cease my membership.   I did rejoin the Crufts before last with re-assurance from Bill Lambert, but I will write to them with these new problems.    We have 8 dogs and a puppy in the house.   Access to a paved back yard in the shade , and the utility room in the daytime if they want it, and the oldies and inseason bitches sleep in my bedroom.    Now that is just too unhygenic for words.......but we do have a separate sink, so guess that's an extra brownie point - but the washer needs fixing....brownie point off...how silly can you get........

Jo

I do the dogs bedding in my washing machine, then run a cycle with some disinfectant and to get rid of the hair before doing a load of my own.

The dogs are in the kitchen if left (bit cosy), only one sink, 2 dog beds, a crate and several mats.  As a double coated breed the beds tend to be used by older canine family members, and the younger ones prefer the mats or the tile.

Other than that there is a double kennel and run, (connecting door, so can be split or not into two) with 4 baskets under two full width benches for choice of sleeping area for those who sleep out.  The run is 12 x 10 so ample for older pups, though the concrete is pitted (one of the numerous expensive jobs that needs to be done some time), and the rest of dogs area is slabs and earth. 

I use a watering can with diluted disinfectant over the lot once a week in winter (rain does the rest) and more often in summer.  Sweep out accumulated dog hair as and when, and use a mop in kitchen.

I am sure this would not pass muster for professional kennels, but this is a home with dogs, the kind of home the pups are destined to go to I would hope, not a kennels.

Well my dogs, cats, horse, tortoise and at one point rats bedding is all washed in the household washing machine. Admittedly anything very hairy and the rats stuff when we had them were all done in a big orange wash bag thingy but anything else goes straight in the machine. Good job I don't breed - I would never pass - though I do have 2 sinks so I get a point there, but then the dogs sleep under the breakfast bar so guess that's another point off!

>I must confess I didn't really want to 'wash my dirty linen in public" as that's not my style.  It is rather embarrassing to admit failure especially as the showing fraternity have demonstrated on more than one occasion that there "must be no smoke without fire"!!

Thanks for the information Chris - I'm (normally) with you on the privacy issue but in your case I think you are actually better placed 'within' the system fighting your corner for fairness and common sense.  The more people you talk to, the more light you shine on your experience, the more chance you have of educating those with the power to change things.  Well done you :)

I have only an academic interest as an 'end user' - I don't breed but I care about the standards of those that do as I trust you, and others like you, to provide me with a happy, healthy, well adjusted puppy.  I'd rather buy a puppy from a good breeders home (with all that entails) than a commercial kennel with separate washing facilities!!

Thanks again for sharing xxx

I had a friend who was inspected and failed for very similar reasons to the poster here.  I naievely thought it was minor areas he'd pulled her up on and why would a hobby show breeder need kennels etc but she kept on you should pass coz you've got kennels and a cellar!

Now I read a very similar experience from another breeder and think that's it I've had it with these people I'm resigning, my puppy buyers think I'm amazing so much so 2 have sent their girls back to me for their litters from another breed they own!  Admittedly I probably wouldn't have had another litter after this one which is to fulfill my overseas obligations but really council pass with flying colours KC fail get a grip KC.

I know of at least one breeder who's passed and has bred her large breed girl at a yr old before any testing, displays her report on her website, it talks of no smell in stables, several acres of land for dogs to exercise in - is this the way the KC want us to go commercial breeders?  I know another in a toy breed who's allowed her stud dog to breed to a bitch on her 3rd consecutive litter but its ok coz its not like she's breeding it only her stud dog so that doesn't count - give me strength.

Had enough of inspections during my military career but at least with them you were given very clear instructions on what was required so stood a chance of passing said inspection - hell never failed a March out, far more important than a poxy KC suitability to breed inspection when they take ya money regardless!

I've had a response from a lady in the ABS section of the KC in reply to my e-mail of this morning. Not very helpful really, stating they can't comment re other cases (I understand that, specially as I couldn't comment on other cases as I don't know names, etc, etc). I basically outlined what I have and plan to do, mentioned some of the things someone had failed on ... would I actually be eligible for ABS status? I've essentially been told that yes I would be, if I think I meet the criteria ... basically if you think you meet the 10 points we're actually going to tell you about then yes, send us your dosh and join! I think perhaps not. One assumes that if you do not pass an inspection one doesn't get a refund?! Hope Wirelincs has a more satisfactory response from the big wig.

> but then the dogs sleep under the breakfast bar

So do mine, that's where the puppy pen fits, designed the kitchen that way when I had to refit.

>> but then the dogs sleep under the breakfast bar

So do mine, that's where the puppy pen fits, designed the kitchen that way when I had to refit.>>

Could be worse my Zymi has a thing for sitting on tables!!

Just the cats that do that!!

The hygiene thing ( in as much as separate sinks washing facilities etc) would have some bearing if it were the customers that were being made the first consideration not the dogs - ie we were serving them refreshments whilst perusing the puppies .....in our 'breeding establishments' :-(

The irony is I joined the ABS to show solidarity with what the KC plan to do with the two-tier system of registrations.... I dont even sell any puppies ( well maybe one this year) and would rather not have strange humans in my lovely house!

This is all it says re additional requirements, over the basic 10.

In addition to the above requirements 1-10, it is expected that the Accredited Breeder will operate to high standards and duty of care and comply with any local authority requirements. Any conduct considered to be incompatible with membership under the Accredited Breeder Scheme or contrary to the spirit of the scheme or likely to undermine the scheme may result in an application for membership being rejected or the breeder's removal from the scheme. If, in exceptional circumstances, and for accepted reasons, a litter registered by an Accredited Breeder does not meet all current requirements, then the Accredited Breeder must
inform all puppy buyers of this in writing at the time of purchase.

I assume what they are using is "and comply with any local authority requirements." but the LA have no requirements for a private home, so it is quite unreasonable for the KC advisors to expect anything above the 10 requirements, unless the level of breeding requires an LA breeders License..

I've had another response from the KC! All very nice, basically saying they can't comment on other people's grievances (which actually isn't what I was asking them to do), but the upshot is I've said that I wont be joining the AB scheme, which I felt a shame 'cause I thought that that I am exactly the sort of breeder the scheme should be looking to enlist. I feel a letter coming on now ... e-mails are all well and good, I think I've got to the right person in the department, but a letter is best. :-) 'Tis such a shame they're being silly over these inspections, as I've thought long and hard about joining, having initially felt it wasn't something I've wanted to be associated with, and there's all that time and agonising on my part gone to waste ... I could have used the time doing something useful, like .....

Hi Brainless

The 'high standards' and 'duty of care' mandatory requirements (in addition to the 10 specific requirements listed) appear to be covered (regardless of whether a breeder is licensed or not and regardless of whether they keep dogs in the home or kennels) by the KC's document entitled "Expectations of Good Management".

The "Expectations of Good Management" document is based on the Breeding of Dogs Act 1973 and is almost word for word that of section 4 of the Act (which has been repealed and replaced by the 1999 Act).

There is also the Animal Welfare Act 2006, Section 9 which states, "A person commits an offence if he does not take such steps as are reasonable in all the circumstances to ensure that the needs of an animal for which he is responsible are met to the extent required by good practice."

The "comply with any local authority requirements" does indicate that this is only applicable to licensed breeders. 

It would appear (to me) that as part of the mandatory requirements of the scheme, breeders must adhere to the 10 known requirements and the requirements listed in the "Expectations of Good Management" in addition to any local authority requirements (where applicable).

I don't think it's unreasonable for the KC to expect breeders to follow their "Expectations of Good Management" requirements (as they have an obligation to ensure their members are meeting the 'high standards' and 'duty of care' elements of the scheme), what is unfortunate is the fact that the KC have chosen to base their "Expectations of Good Management" requirements on an Act specifically designed to cover licensed breeders (and all that entails) and the fact the 10 requirements of this document are not publicly available so that members know what EXACTLY is required of them as a scheme member.

I surmise that in the face of criticism of the scheme, the KC have tightened the rules significantly and have in their wisdom decided that members should (by adopting the "Expectations of Good Management") be basically providing facilities and care for their dogs in a similar manner to those required by licensed breeders even though many breeders are not required to be licensed.  I.e. it is not a legal requirement but a requirement of scheme membership which has been included as a 'benchmark' for good practice which has been included as part of the process of raising standards.
 
I don't think I've explained that very well, what I'm trying to say is that breeders who are licensed are required to adhere to certain 'rules and regulations'.  These are set out clearly and are the minimum requirements needed to ensure that a breeder operates to a certain standard (facilities, care, welfare etc.), therefore as these a 'legal' requirements I think the KC have opted to adopt the 'legal' requirements as the basis for what they now consider to be 'good practice' for their Accredited Breeders. 

If the requirements set out under legislation are deemed to be a fair determination of good practice then in a way it makes sense for the KC to devise (of their own volition) a set of guidelines for their Accredited Breeders where said guidelines are as good as those laid down by law.  To be honest, if they chose to have 'guidelines for good practice' then as an organisation they can't really set their level lower than that laid down by law as this would lead to all sorts of complications.

Well then I believe they are taking the vast majority of hobby home breeder exhibitors money under false pretences, as there is no way my home set up can meet these standards.

it's like expecting my home to measure up to the rules for nursery's and crèches when looking after my own children.

I'm thinking this entire thread ought to be brought to the attention of the dog papers.