Hi all,
As some of you might know over the weekend I had rather a bad experience with a rescue whippet x lab and they had to go back to the rescue rather sharpish. I dont want to go into details but it was all rather sad and shocking and Im still really upset over it. Not only has it put me on edge about having a rescue sadly, it has also meant that I think my best option is to go for a pup, a blank slate if you like.  I really would like to add another doglet to my family but Im having a lot of trouble finding the right breed.  Ive got a few requirements and likes and dislikes and just wondered what you lovely lot could come up with as Im just completely stuck? (just in case anyone sees it, I have put a similar post on a different forum that I really trust, as I need as much advice to make this the right choice for the next 12-15years).

Ive kept dogs a long time, have had Cavvies, a whippet (which is why I went for that cross, never again) and a rescue JRT (one was enough lol).
We currently have a male neutered 3yr old cavvie who is naturally submissive and Im a puppywalker for Guide Dogs, so have a lab x golden Retriever who is as soft as butter.  I will have him until November at least.

I love dog training, going to our local dog club, clicker training and dog behaviour. I would like to be able to do things like Rally-o or basic flyball, obedience (not competative), pre agility and work through the KC awards.  I cannot do most of that with the GD pup even if they were old enough, and Cavvie is just not interested lol.

I have two sons, 16 and 10 who are very quiet natured and dog savvy and because of GD training we are all very consistent with the dogs.

Im looking for a girl (definate) that is similar in size to a small lab as Ive got to fit three dogs and two children in my car to go to the woods etc.

I have a house that has a fairly big garden on a new housing estate, 7ft solid fencing and access to fields across the road, lots of off road walks and not too far from woods etc.  I work 3 hours every weekday morning term time only.

There are some breeds that have been suggested that Ive already ruled out, such as the guarding breeds like dobies/staffies/rotties or any terrier (had lots of bad experiences with these), the toy breeds I think would be too small and not quite what I am looking for, so no poodles or paps.

Ive had Tollers and Large Musterlanders suggested but not only are they £££ they are like hens teeth.  I have about a £500 budget, I know thats not the normal thing to say but thats what I have to work to.  I need to go a bit smaller than a lab or everyone wont fit in the car!

Someone suggested a working cocker, but Ive not been able to find anywhere that actually has any?  Im also a bit unsure about the rage syndrome side of Cocker Spaniels?  Ive also has Setters suggested but then someone else said that they really didnt have the personality that would like the type of training that I wanted to do.  The same with Springer Spaniels. 

Can anyone suggest a breed?  Any ideas or pms as to breeders/pups would be gratefully received (In in Nantwich, Cheshire if that helps anyone).
Thankyou
x

What about a Border Collie? They tend to be smaller than a Lab and also would do very well in all the activities you want to partake in.. I'm sure the Aussie also would enjoy there activities.

Why not a Poodle, without the fancy clips?  I know you said you don't want a Poodle but I think tyhe look of the show type puts many off a breed, which is actually quite intelligent and a lot of fun.

I'm afraid your not going to get a well bred puppy from health tested parents of any breed under £500.  Realistically you need to be looking from about that to around £750.  You are also likely to need to go on a waiting list for several months unless yoru really lucky.

I have a friend who has a working or field cocker. He is absolutley gorgeous, full of fun/energy, goes like the wind and is always "working". He has a fab temperament too! I would definitely recommend them, lovely little dogs!

Or how about a working bred Golden? Not only are they smaller in build than the show types, they are fast, biddible and have excellent temperaments. I have no idea how much they would cost to buy.

>Ive also has Setters suggested but then someone else said that they really didnt have the personality that would like the type of training that I wanted to do.

I compete in agility with mine with some success and they have all of their good citizen awards. There are a few who compete in obedience ..... you just need to know what makes them tick ;)

Have you a ,German Shorthaired Pointer, I have two, FANTASTIC breed!!!!!!!!!!, my two are bomb proof with kids, very loyal loving dogs,they are very eager to please, I do Search and Rescue with mine and they love it! Give them plenty of excersize, love and the right diet and you will have a friend for life!!!!!!!!!!!!

> Ive had Tollers and Large Musterlanders suggested but not only are they £££ they are like hens teeth. 

A LM is about £650 and the parents will have to be x-rayed for HD, ED, eye tested for HC and now the new DNA test too - so the price is fair considering the health test requirements.    If you are prepared to travel then pups are not so hard to find.

Ive had Tollers and Large Musterlanders suggested but not only are they £££ they are like hens teeth.  I have about a £500 budget, I know thats not the normal thing to say but thats what I have to work to.

Why not just wait a bit longer and save up some more to have a bigger choice? What's a few more months if it's for so many years? :)

I too would suggest a border collie given the things you wish to do with your new dog ... but then I'm a tad biased, and I would add that yes you can get a jolly good dog, with all the relevant health tests, and more, superbly raised with goodness knows how many champions in it's lineage, for less than £500. Sadly, we don't all live in an area or with a breed where we can expect to demand very high prices ... and bet most of those that do cost over £500 can't do a decent outrun!!! (at 8 weeks I'm talking ... I know many dogs that cost that times goodness knows how many ... including one of my own!)  :-) I sometimes wish I were expecting my first litter of Italian Greyhounds at £1,400 a go ... but then could I do a good trial course with an IG?  Nah!! 
On a serious not though, a BC, or what about a Goldie ... even looking at breed rescues. I've seen some fabulous Goldies around the obedience shows in the last couple of years, and doing agility. There are many fabulous young dogs in rescue centres through no fault of their own. I appreciate that you've had a bad experience and without going into detail obviously I don't know what that is, but from my own experience with rescue centres unfortunately they don't all tell you the TRUE story, some are just 'pleased' to home a dog ... the problems are shown once in the new home.
Whatever breed you choose, I wish you luck.

Agree Border Collie.  Mine gets on well with the rest of my gang (Beardies, Yorkies, Chi's) so would fit in well.  Very, very biddable, only wants to please me, and a wonderful temperament.

Sadly, some folk think all they need to do is walk a BC for hours, but mine would be bored out of his skull.  He really loves being made to think, so as long as you exercise the brain as well, you're on a winner.  (But of course, they're my first love!)  :-)

Working cockers are fabulous little dogs, my sister has two black ones and they fit in brilliantly with her family and get along famously with her wolfhound. They are eager to please and always on the go, like any spaniel really.
I wouldnt rule out a springer, of course im biased. But if trained properly and given plenty of stimulation they really do make fantastic family dogs. I have known many springers compete in agility. A show type maybe worth considering.

Id also suggest a Tibetan Terrier, not strictly a terrier as i know you've said terriers are a nono. I was bought up with them and for your requirements i think one would fit the bill. They are a managable size, hardy, intelligent and are quite capable of going all day if required. They would also be well suited to your training/agitly plans IMO.

Seriously with all the DNA tests the breed has, Hips, eye testing hearing testing how on earth can anyone rear Border collie pups and sell at under £500.

Or ae prices kept artificially low because there are so may cheap ones availab;le wothpout the testing registration etc?

I wouldn't consider my breed expensive at £650 on average, much less than many popular breeds of similar size and litter size.

I'm not sure re prices of BCs, I guess there is the mentality out there that they can be picked up cheaply from some farms, not all I hasten to add. I know many farmers who do do all the tests and who do rear excellent dogs. Mine are all eye tested, DNA tested, hip scored and come from excellent lines and have excellent temperaments, etc, etc. I'm following the lead, re prices, from my breeder mentor and they will be £400. I even agonised about putting them at this price as she used to sell hers for £300!! I know looking on sites like Agilitynet there are BCs around £500-£600 available, and I know they are not as well bred/health tested as mine but assume it's down to the north/south divide.  There are obviously many a lot cheaper ... met a lady the other day with a pup, she wanted to pay £150, but ended up getting one from a farm for £180 - she couldn't find one cheaper!!  Unfortunately I know this farm to be churning out lots of dogs (not well looked after) and I know that some have come out of it with Parvo - also know someone who is trying to get them investigated!  So in a way it's a battle against that mentality, though she would not be someone I would ever sell a pup to (rolled up newspaper ready to tap on nose as wee'd on door mat when back door open, duuurrrr).
To be honest, to re-coup all the cost over the last year finding out my main lad had become infertile I need to be charging much more. However, balanced against that is the fact that I have got some excellent homes lined up, one or two I know do not have lots of money but will still be excellent homes and will make a name for my breeding in their line of work and hopefully orders for the next litter. I suspect that I gradually increase the price. I guess there's the fear too, with a first litter, that I'll end up pricing myself out and no one will buy a pup! As it is I need 12 pups ... I really hope she doesn't have 12, we'll know 2 weeks today ;-)
Actually it would be quite interesting to try and work out an 'average' price for a BC ... that could prove interesting research.

Re Cockers they have mostly bred that out(rage syndrome) Ive got a Border Collie and Cocker Spaniel and I would recommend a cocker even a working cocker is great (Whistler is a show cocker). I like the cockers because they can take as much exercise as you can give them, or will curl up on the sofa and sleep.

Ours has a 3 mile walk to work, sleeps on my feet all day in the office with a walk around the block for 11am pee. Plus a 3 milke walk home, or if Ive got to shop a car ride home and a chase the frisbee for half an hour later in the evening.

A show has a pain of a coat, you have to hand strip or they go all curley and dull, a working cocker needs the same exercise regime but also will need a "somthing to do" training.

The Border is a different kettle of dog, he has 3 miles in, out and is up for a lot more, but again sleeps here in the office with the cocker.

The only other thing is a spaniel left alone will pine, they need company. Jake (BC) is a one man dog, he adores Colin (OH) and tolerates me if he is away, oh and he's a sulker if he gets left when OH goes to London.

Hi all
Thankyou all so much for your replies.  Im very wary of collies tbh, I live in a really rural area and there are lots of them 'loose' round here,  I was walking with my dogs and one appeared from nowhere, and just herded us up, staring and doing the crouching and nipping our ankles thing the whole time. (Luckily my dogs are not reactive and we just turned tail and left) Its not the first time that Ive had that happen as well.  Im not sure a breed that Im wary of would be right for us even if they were going to be well trained, its a natural instinct for them to do that.  Ive already had spaniels for the majority of my life so like their happy outlook and loving nature, however I just fancied something a bit different.  It does appear though that a Cocker would tick 99% of all the boxes.  

Mmm thinking continues.

Yes I didnt want one OH did hence two different breeds, but I have fallen in love with Jake. He's Colin's though and it shows.

A Welsh Springer, is less frenetic, has lighter ears, but again like most spaniels can suffer SA if left.

I had a friend who used to breed Welsh,a nd often looked after her dogs.  I have to admit I don't like cockers or English Springers because of the very heavy ears, and wet mouths, and the problems that go with them. 

If I had to have a Spaniel (definitely not my favourite type of dog) then it would be a Welsh Springer, Coats less hassle than cockers.

Would be older than a pup but what about a 'failed' Guide dog? You might be able to get a smallish one.

I was going to suggest a working cocker.

"Would be older than a pup but what about a 'failed' Guide dog? You might be able to get a smallish one. "

Being a puppy walker this is what I considered first of all and over the last couple of months I have had several conversations with the rehoming section of GD together with my Supervisor (including one today actually :D).  A pup can get rehomed at any stage and for many different reasons, mainly behaviour traits incompatible with guiding or health issues.  They are then assessed by Dogs for the Deaf, Assistance Dogs and the Police and Drugs Units.  If they are not suitable for those alternative careers then GD have just bought in something called 'Buddy Dogs' which is to promote blind and partially sighted people's confidence and wellbeing. The buddy dog will be used to provide companionship, support and, in certain situations, to develop the necessary skills for guide dog ownership.  So it does mean that Guide Dog rehomes are very very few and far between, even for people that volunteer for them and if the dog is not suitable for the above and I took them on, then it would mean that I would also be unable to continue puppy walking.

Arent Welsh Springers meant to be a bit 'fruit loopy'?   Im not sure what the difference between the English and Welsh Springer actually is?

I have no idea how much they cost on average but there was a breed of dog at one of my old agility clubs which did well and that was the Keeshound, sweet dogs.. I know little about them, but was thinking along the lines of what you wanted to do. GSD's are also very good dogs to compete with.
Flyball needs a very ball orientated dog
Obedience and agilty can be done with most/all breeds, it really depends on how biddable you want the dog in these circumstances and how far up the scale you want to take it.
I've also seen Bearded Collies do well in agility... The only thing i'm concerned about is you mention about coats and the Beardie has a coat which requires a lot of attention, as does the TT someone has also mentioned.

An example from my dogs:
I have Bernese and the eldest is very clever and has gone all the KCGC awards and i was told i could move into high end obedience with him, also he loves agility, but would never complete with him. My youngest is not the most intelligent and we are working hard on the KCGC - so no obedience for him, he's too heavy for agility.

Are you wanting to partake in all the activites you mentioned or some of them?

Tough call :-)
I would say that a pup with a Guide Dog pup would be exceptionally hard work and that you would not be able to train both really well with all the other demands on your time. I say that through personal experience as you know....but you could always take a break from puppy walking. Guide Dogs may well let you have 2 together, but that doesn't mean it is the right thing to do, for any of you.
As for breed? I thought you wanted a Dalmation? I have no idea how much they cost? Someone elses suggestion of spending longer saving was a good one I thought? It would allow you to go on waiting lists etc some of which are exceptionally long.
Your other option of course is to get a puppy from a rescue centre, if you went somewhere like Dogs Trust ( the Merseyside one is probably only 45 minutes from you) they are VERY honest about how big they think pups will turn out to be and what breeds are in them. You would also be rescuing still...and with a blank canvas...all for around £80 I think.

> but there was a breed of dog at one of my old agility clubs which did well and that was the Keeshound,

to be honest the Norwegian Elkhound would be better suited for Agility than a Keeshond (similar temperament, but longer legs and more practical coat).

In fact the top dog all breeds when Agility started in the USA was an Elkhound bitch, she only died a couple of years ago.

Being a puppy walker this is what I considered first of all and over the last couple of months I have had several conversations with the rehoming section of GD together with my Supervisor (including one today actually :D).  A pup can get rehomed at any stage and for many different reasons, mainly behaviour traits incompatible with guiding or health issues.  They are then assessed by Dogs for the Deaf, Assistance Dogs and the Police and Drugs Units.  If they are not suitable for those alternative careers then GD have just bought in something called 'Buddy Dogs' which is to promote blind and partially sighted people's confidence and wellbeing. The buddy dog will be used to provide companionship, support and, in certain situations, to develop the necessary skills for guide dog ownership.  So it does mean that Guide Dog rehomes are very very few and far between, even for people that volunteer for them and if the dog is not suitable for the above and I took them on, then it would mean that I would also be unable to continue puppy walking.

Sorry your current rescue didn't work out, seems a sad situation all around.  I'm confused about the above though, wasn't it only ast month you were advsing someone else about being able to rehome failed guide dogs?

If you want a young puppy, though of course there are no guarentees with temp, you can only do your best but obvously the younge thye are the better chance you have of socialiation and training making the dog as well rounded and happy as it can be - given the current rescue situation there are plenty of pups in rescue - it's seems sad that one experience with a young rescue over such a short period has put you off rescue entirely :-(  While I appreciate you are upset whippets are generally lovely dogs and to not consider one ever again because of one experience is very sad, you can't judge a whole race on one exerience any more than you can a breed of dog, particularly one that has just had its home changed and may be stressed and react accordingly and probably because it finds it's self a little out of it's depth :-)

You can get puppies that are happy well adjusted little souls from rescue though.  I guess if your personal preferance is to go to a breeder that is a different thing and only something you can decide.

Its the introduction of Buddy Dogs that has changed the rehoming process entirely.  This has literally only just happened, we are talking in the last month.  Before then, you were able to put your name down on the rehoming list and the dogs that were on it were less problematic.  The ones that are deemed suitable are being taken out of that pool and into the Buddy system.  Its a trial at the moment, however its expected to become permanent.  Ive also discovered that the dogs are only rehomed in their own region.  So for example in my region there hasnt been a single girl available for rehoming in the last year.

Ive actually owned a whippet, which is why I went for the lab x whippet rescue, so I wasnt just going on just the one experience.  What actually happened was a lot more than a dog being stressed and out of its depth and was immediate and dramatic and very upsetting. :'(

Ive got a few possibilities to think about now anyway :) thankyou everyone.

Hi Ramble :)
I had intially wanted a Dalmation as you know, however I delved a bit deeper and rang a couple of breeders and spoke to the trainer at my dog club.  It appears that the breed is no longer the same as the one I spent a lot of my childhood with and perhaps for that reason they are not as suitable for my family as I would have first thought.  Thats one of the reasons I rang some breeders as from the horses mouth as it were.

Ive been a regular visitor to the Dogs Trust websites, Im afraid I just dont think dogs show their true colours in kennels, and I know that when I was looking for a dog when I eventually bought my Cavalier (3yrs ago), I did all the rescue centres round here including Dogs Trust Merseyside and Roden and you couldnt get to know any of the dogs well enough to know what they would be like in a family.  It just really worries me how much of an unknown quantity they are. 

My current GD pup is due to leave around October time, and yes if I needed to I could take a break :)

That is not my experience of Dogs Trust at all. They will let you reserve and visit a dog as much as you like whilst the whole process is going on. Yes, the dogs are stressed in that environment but I can personally vouch for the behaviourist at Dogs Trust Merseyside, she really knows her stuff and is exceptionally responsible, I have seen her work with a number of dogs and she is fantastic. I would trust any judgement she made on a dog. Yes, dogs can be different in a home environment,than they are in a kennel environment, but if people are careful and the rescue is decent there should not be too many shocks.
Tango had lived her life in kennel...her whole life, prior to coming to us as you know. She had never had a toy, never been on the sofa....how times change huh!!! :-) Thing is, she could have been written off but she has been totally amazing around people (she just has a few issues with other dogs but nothing that can't be managed. she is fab with Cosmo). I don't think it's right to write off rescues. :( The vast majority of dogs in rescue are just fine, they need time, patience and tlc that's all.
As for Dogs Trust...they get a lot of puppies in and by pups I mean really young ones, ones that would be a blank canvas for you so to speak. They never make it onto the website, a lot of the dogs don't, they have a very high turnover of dogs so there just isn't time. It would be worth you visiting them, filling in a form and having a long chat. The people there know their stuff. You could then phone once or twice a week to see what is in. They understand that people want and need to get the right dog as there is nothing worse for a rescue dog than being bounced around the place, that is the last thing they want.

There is a girl Golden Retriever that has failed and is currently up for rehoming in your area. I know because she has been offered to my neighbour who has only been on the waiting list about a month. She has been told there are dogs available still  and she is after a failed dog, not a retired one. Her circumstances are however, different to yours in that she has no children or other dogs. Thing is, not every failed dog will be suitable for the buddy scheme and the buddy scheme is merely on trial and not very big at the moment so there is no way it will take up all the failed dogs. The thing is you want to carry on puppy walking, so they need to ensure that a dog coming to you will be reliable with your resident dog and with any pups coming and going...as well as with your children. That is a big ask and so you could expect to be waiting for a long time for the right dog.You will not want a dog with any illness, so you will be looking at a dog that has had training issues of some sort... A friend of mine waited well over a year (she is a puppy walker) for the right dog to come along for her and she (again) has no children. She also ended up with a retired dog rather than one that didn't quite make the grade. The whole process takes a lot of time and you seem to want another dog quite quickly.

Can I ask what happened with the Lab X as she was only a pup wasn't she?

>Ive been a regular visitor to the Dogs Trust websites, Im afraid I just dont think dogs show their true colours in kennels

Some don't - we got ours from Manchester Dogs Home and he was the only dog in the place not barking: turns out he just had kennel cough and a sore throat and has made up for it since!  We couldn't ask for a better dog though, he's been perfect.

There are rescues that prefer to place directly into foster care to ensure they can carefully assess what homes might suit their dogs.  Black Retriever Cross Rescue is one that comes to mind but I'm sure there are others.  You could look for a dog that has already been assessed or perhaps you could foster first?  You probably have the sort of experience they'd appreciate.

What about a flat coat retriever ? Excellent family dog loves everyone enjoys some kind of work amd maybe not too big , that one is a bit subjective I know.Down side puppy prices ara a bit higher than your budget as far as I can see I am sure someone will have that infomation for you. Just seemn the link dogsababe has given maybe a foster would be good

Ive actually owned a whippet, which is why I went for the lab x whippet rescue, so I wasnt just going on just the one experience.  What actually happened was a lot more than a dog being stressed and out of its depth and was immediate and dramatic and very upsetting. :'(

No I meant it was sad to go on one negative experience and say never again with that breed, particulalry if you've had one great experience with them already, but of course that's your call :-)  Though dogs can act very out of their normal character when they are stressed and a young rescue dog moving home for maybe the second or third time and being faced with other dogs and new people coming in and out will likely make them feel out of their depth as it's a very stressful experience for them and they can react accordingly.

I hope you find the dog you are looking for.

:-) I would say a Flat Coat would be too big, in more ways than one.  :)

What about a Sheltie? I don't know how much a well-bred Sheltie would cost though.

Great little dogs and shine at agility and obedience :)

I haven't read the replies, but wanted to say Cavaliers can indeed do all those things, even if your particular boy isn't interested. Ellie has dabbled in agility, competed in obedience, and is signed up for rally - at our show last year she was 2nd out of 45 dogs entered, and many of them were collies as we also run obedience at our companion show. If you want something a bit bigger, perhaps something like a Toller (though I can well imagine you're right about how rare they are) or a Sheltie?

hi Trialist, have a look at the prices fetched for BCs at Skipton sheepdog sales

I know these prices very well, however, at such places like Skipton sales we are talking trained, or part-trained working dogs, hence the fact that they can go for many of thousands of pounds, a very very different kettle of fish to an 8-week pup going to a family home or to do obedience, agility, etc. I wont tell you how much my young working dog cost me!!
But that really is very different to 8-week old pups, these dogs go for the high price as they are they are doing a job of work, mostly a job that no human on a weekly wage could possibly achieve. I have a farmer friend who sends 2 dogs out onto the mountains, they're out all day and do a full hill gather, getting every single sheep down into the valley ... something it would be impossible for 10 men to do in a single day!! :-) Also they are going for sheepdog trialling, whilst there is no high money prizes in this, dogs with potential do go for a lot of money.
But thanks for your comment ... I do think I'm underpricing and feel a creep up coming along.

Just to finish this thread really, after having a long chat with the children last night (they are 16 and 10 so old enough to help making that decision). We reassessed various things and have decided to go with a breed that we are already familiar with, which is the Labrador.  I know they are bigger than what we originally decided but we weighed that up against feeling safe with the breed traits and their general nature which was higher up our priorities.  We have also decided to get a pup from a breeder and are therefore going to save up some more to enable us to do that. Ive nothing against rescues whatsoever, my Bridge Jrt Poppy was a rescue and a driving pony I owned whilst I was still married was rescued from the meat market.  However that is not right for us at this time.  In the meantime Im going to research and investigate breeders.

Thankyou all so much for your help.

> I do think I'm underpricing and feel a creep up coming along.

If people do the math it is quite scary how much it costs to breed well.

Also there is a definite difference between a puppy from just two dogs, and puppies with potential from parents with top class ability/characteristics that have a high chance of being reproduced in the offspring.

It's like a knock off rolex compared to the real thing, to some the knock off is enough.