I know everyone has different opinions on this subject, but I am shocked to see a breeder of my breed having a second litter from her bitch 7 and a half months after her previous litter of 15!!! She is 2 years and three months old! When is the KC going to take stock of this sort of practise. Surely it can't be said that this in the bitch's best interest.

You need to badger your Breed ~Club.   In our breed only for AB's the new breeding parameters are:

12 months between litters

1st litter not whelped before 2 years of age

No more than 3 litters from any one bitch

This is all in line with our Society's COE's

It takes some doing, but it is possible to achieve,with constant letter writing from your Breed Clubs and Breed Council to the KC, as this is a health and welfare issue for not only the bitch but also for the puppies that are born.

Puppy farmer in my opinion, so this bitch was only 19 months on the first litter & has been mated on her the next season!!!
I don't think it is the bitch's best interest, to have another litter the very next season after rearing 15 pups!!!

Alison, I have sent you a pm.

Poor bitch - there are a couple of issues, her age and the gap between litters.  Has she used her own stud? as I feel stud dog owners also have a responsibility to ensure this doesn't happen.
There can only be one reason for breeding her again so soon - money!  If licensed breeders are not allowed to have more than one litter registered per bitch per year, it cannot be that difficult to apply the same conditions to everyone.

Yes, she has used her own stud. This is a repeat mating of the first which produced 15 pups, this second mating has produced 11. 26 pups in a 7 1/2 month period!! The first mating was done before the bitch had any hips scored.

I have to say I find that quite shocking Alison. All I can say is poor bitch! Is it someone in the show world? Because if it is, they're hardly setting any example are they?

I've gone through agonies deciding whether to mate my girl after 9 pups 13 month's ago, there will be 15 months between litters, and I wasn't sure it was long enough.

> Yes, she has used her own stud. This is a repeat mating of the first which produced 15 pups, this second mating has produced 11. 26 pups in a 7 1/2 month period!! The first mating was done before the bitch had any hips scored.

Blimey, hadn't realised the pups have been born plus she used her own stud...deffinately not wrong with my first thoughts then!!!
Not knowing what price this breed normally costs but I guess this person has earnt somewhere in the region of £13,000 in this timescale??

Somewhere in the region of £19,000 in my estimation. Won't go into great detail but have reported this to the site in question and am hoping that at least she won't be allowed to continue to advertise this litter. Hopefully her membership will also be revoked.

I really don't know what to reply - words fail me.  I assume they are not KCAB's?

>Somewhere in the region of £19,000 in my estimation.

then I'm sure the tax man would be very interested ;)

Wow, that's too young, too close together, and too many puppies altogether! If I had a bitch with a large litter, I would consider if I needed another puppy from that line very carefully being putting further strain on her with a 2nd litter, and you should never except with exceptional circumstances mate a bitch on consecutive seasons. Poor girl :-(

Hi, I too am shocked by this, it's also my breed and I know how much it took out of my bitch when she had a litter of 11, 14 months ago!  It seems I am in the same position as "Itsadogslife" trying to decide whether or not to mate my girl on her next season, we are worried that 18 months after having her first litter might be too soon.  Poor girl, so young, I hope it's a small litter for her sake.
Jan

I hope she misses.

> I hope she misses.

The bitch in question seems to have had the 2nd litter, as the first was 15 & in the 2nd had 11 pups

None of mine have ever had that many pups in their lives.

This is of course why the Kennel Club can't make blanket rules that are too strict, including the 12 months between litters.

If a bitch had only one or two pups, in a medium or large breed, and long season intervals then next season would be fine.

This is why breed clubs need to make these rules for their breed and get the kennel Club to set them, but ti seems this only counts for the KCABS, and one would hope ABS members would not need the extra rules, these should be for all registrations, but would make it very complex for those not affiliated to breed clubs to know the registration rules.  Maybe that's no bad thing?

Barbara, can you confirm that the KCAB's have to abide by the a 12 month break or am I reading you post wrongly. I ask because have just found out she is AB and had her first litter of 15 before any hips where in place. She was also pregnant with the 11 when she went throught the hip scheme i.e. xrayed whilst pregnant. I couldn't see anything on the AB's scheme that prevented a mating taking place under 12 months break.
Thanks

No that has become a rule with some breeds who have lobbied the KC to include it, so ti's up to members to get their bred clubs onto it.

This really is an eye opener! So it would appear an AB is only controlled in a case like this if they are also a Registered Breeder where the rules state "that bitches do not give birth to puppies before the end of the period of twelve months beginning with the day on which they last gave birth to puppies".

The KC ABS requirements only state "Follow Kennel Club policy regarding maximum age and number/frequency of litters" and I can't find anywhere on the KC website or my ABS paperwork what that actually is.

Below is the link for registering litters with the KC - this does not apply to all KCAB's whose Breed Club has asked for special regulations:

i.e. length of time between litter

     number of litters any one bitch may whelp

     age of bitch when she whelps her first litter

Anyone with common sense and love for their dog wouldn't put their bith through that again so soon.  Guess money means everything.  Trouble is she is free to do it again once those pups are gone and any buyer is unsuspecting.

Sorry forgot to paste the link to the KC website for registering litters - oops

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/346

Thanks dogsdinner.  
I have always wondered about the piece on the back of the Litter Registration Form under The General Code of Ethics which states "Breach of these provisions may result in expulsion from club membership ........"   Not too many expulsions at risk there then!

wow...this is just so sad, that poor bitch.

My girl had 13 puppies 6 weeks ago and it really took it out of her, the pups are stunning and i am keeping a girl, i would love to repeat it and keep a boy next time round but the minimum break between doing this would be 18 mths maybe 2 years as her body was pushed to the maximum and i wouldnt dream of doing it again any earlier......this is nothing but pure greed. Awful :(

> as I feel stud dog owners also have a responsibility to ensure this doesn't happen.
>

Totally agree with this statement.  I refused the use of one of my boys for this very reason.  Believe it or not, the bitch in question had not only had a litter at the previous season, but had needed a C-section.

When I refused, the attitude was - well I'm willing to pay the stud fee! 

Well, sorry, but if I agreed, it would make me as bad as the bitches owner.  Although no doubt someone else said yes.  :-(

I have just telephoned the Kennel Club as the breeder is an AB. It has been brought to my attention that the bitch only had her hips x-rayed in May which means that she was x-rayed whilst in whelp!
The Kennel Club are happy to register the second litter. I must say that I thought that they would be a little more concerned about the health and welfare but sadly not.
On a positive front. The website she was advertising on has not only pulled the advert but I notice that her membership seems to have ceased too. Well done to the concerned Admin of that website.

Further on the subject of the ABS maybe some of you read Jessica Holm's article in DW last week. She states "There have been 500 inspection visits to date with 100 breeders suspended (20 per cent) from the scheme after an inspection and a further 300 rapid 'resignations' (60 per cent). Unfortunately, this does mean that less than 10 per cent of ABS members have currently been inspected and that when they eventually are, a good proportion of them will be expelled or will resign to avoid this".

I find this totally shocking. Surely those 20% who were suspended thought they would pass the inspection otherwise they would not have permitted the KC Advisor to visit. So their idea of acceptable standards must be very low. Plus they had plenty of time to prepare for inspection. So what does this say about the rest of the uninspected ABs?  The numbers flouting the rules must be very high indeed.

It's not the standards that are low. I know people personally who have happily allowed the inspectors in only to be told they failed for the daftest of reasons, such as not having a kennel for each dog to sleep in, or too many dogs sleeping indoors, or even the fact they washed their dog bowls in the kitchen sink!

[deleted]

I know of the person Marianne is speaking about.. a very caring breeder, and also got a black mark against her AB checklist for allowing her dogs to sleep on the sofa..

on that basis alone.. at least 75% of us would fail to be allowed AB status

If that is the case MarianneB it is understandable why so many would resign in disgust.

I have had an ABS inspection and found the KC Advisor very pleasant and reasonable so didn't encounter any problems. I definitely have too many dogs sleeping indoors! I guess I got lucky with the Advisor as my dogs were liberally decorating two sofas!

> It's not the standards that are low. I know people personally who have happily allowed the inspectors in only to be told they failed for the daftest of reasons, such as not having a kennel for each dog to sleep in, or too many dogs sleeping indoors, or even the fact they washed their dog bowls in the kitchen sink!

Well then I may as well resign now and save money, as I breed in a home not kennels. 

I do have a Kennel and run, but other than that the dogs are indoors and adhoc arrangements of puppy pens etc serve me well for puppy rearing. 

The dogs are companions and part of a hobby activity, and breeding only a part of it.

If breeding top quality health tested puppies reared with plenty of TLC isn't what is required then I don't know what the point is.

I's actually like to join the ABS now as I feel the KC are now trying more but as long as it seems to be so hit and miss with the inspections, I don't want to risk failing for something silly as what has been mentioned -imagine the talk that would ensue when it got out such and such a person had failed ? We all know how gossip is spread within breeds and it's not often you get a complete story. No thanks.

Well I am already an ABS member so i could be one of those in dsigrace when I get my visit

The Kennel Clubs ABS cant possible believe that everybody keeps their dogs in kennels, we wash the dogs dishes in our kitchen sink as well so we wouldn't be allowed to join, though we only ever keep 3 dogs at one time, health test, work and show the dogs as well as bring them up as part of the family.

when an AB is visited by a regional advisor there would have to be serious problems before the AB is expelled from the scheme. If there were problems such as inadaquate breeding records, lack of fences etc etc that one can see is detrimental to the welfare of the dogs or makes their paperwork look suspect the option is there for recommendations to be suggested to bring the standards up to that which is expected of ANYONE breeding pups (not just AB's). Really important things are there for "immediate" action and other things as little suggestions . A lot of people have nothing in either box. No way would someone be expelled for not having kennels. There is NO requirement at all for such a thing and the vast majority of the AB's have a relatively small number of dogs, kept indoors and breed very infrequently. They live as family pets and the only facility the breeder has is the kitchen. THAT is where the whelping pen is set up and THAT is where the food is prepared...no problem. What we must remember is that if someone is actually thrown off the scheme they are very unlikely to tell us the real reason and will make up something stupid to get sympathy or discredit the advisor who came. If however a regional advisor WAS completely unjust or "nit-picky" I'm sure Bill Lambert would be more than pleased to hear about it and investigate the matter. When the AB scheme came about everyone moaned that it was too easy to become one and that applicants should be inspected as soon as they applied. Now something IS being done people still aren't happy. The title AB should mean something and not be an easy way for people to go to the top of the PSI when they are no more than puppy farmers.

Well I hope that is the case.

I just looked at my ABS Advisor Assessment Form and see I actually got top marks for the dogs having comfortable bedding, which included sofas!

The Assessment Form is accompanied by a letter from the Scheme Coordinator asking to be informed if there are any points with which the inspected breeder does not agree. So I would definitely have taken advantage of this had the Advisor written anything I felt was unjust or unreasonable.

Surely an inspected breeders only fails if they are removed from the Scheme and not just for getting less than perfect marks on a few Scheme requirements?

Summer, Kay and I ARE talking about an actual case where a person who is very experienced, does all health testing etc WAS removed as a member. We even saw the paperwork detailing it all.

that is right. You do have to be BAD to be thrown off not just "room for improvement". All of us on Champdogs will raise our pups differently in some way or another ther is no right or wrong yet each one of us would know if something was unacceptable and cruel. The bottom line here is " if one of your friends wanted a pup of that particular breed would you be happy to send them there" if the answer is "definately not!!" you have your answer.
Most visits are actually an exchange of ideas and best practice where often the regional advisor learns something too , a slightly different way of wording a sales contract or a way of displaying rosettes they haven't seen before. After all we're all in it because we love our dogs and want to breed them in the best way we can.

if this was so and you truely think it was wrong write to me privately or phone me as this is NOT what should be happening. Regional advisors are exactly that ADVISORS not little hitlers. Don't forget though the advisor only gives in a report. The Kennel Club make the decisions who is suspended not the person who visited them. Soon they are going to be asking for feedback from breeders as to how the advisor conducted themselves which would have helped your friend.

>Summer, Kay and I ARE talking about an actual case where a person who is very experienced, does all health testing etc WAS removed as a >member. We even saw the paperwork detailing it all

Summer, this breeder is a small breeder, all her dogs live in the house with her, and was absolutely gutted and so very ashamed when she was told her application to become an AB was refused.. she eventually scanned her assessment and mailed it to us, and I was horrified to read some of the comments... the lowest box was ticked for bedding, because... Dogs were sleeping on the PLASTIC Sofa (the sofa was actually leather) and beside this the assessor had remarked it unhygenic... the same remark was made for cleaning of dishes.. because she washed the dogs bowl in the sink after she washed her own dishes.. I do that.. and everyone I know does this.. but again.. was given the lowest mark, and remarks were, unhygenic...

Onther assessor remark on the paper was that she had no kennel area.. and her dogs had free run of the house, and was again, considered unhygenic.. she got many ticks on the highest points.. but this was what she failed to gain her ABS on..

Some of the other things that were remarked on.. I don't know anyone who doesnt do half of them..including myself..

I would recommend her as a breeder, before I would recommend half the people I know on the AB Scheme ..

We told her to put in a complaint, and ask for further information as to why she has been refused.. and the KC told her they would not enter into any talks, they take the assessors word Pass or fail, as gospel.. If she wished to apply again, she could, and of course pay another fee..

ok
so you are telling me she got 1's for just the things you told me and 2's and 3's for everything else. I presume she has a relatively small amount of dogs in the house ( not 20 or something stupid or crates everywhere...and it does happen) so having the free run of the house surely is normal. You don't have to have kennels and you don't have to have a special sink..that is silly. The advisor would have sent in a report and photos and their opinion, and it is just that, as to whether the person should remain an AB or not. The decision is the KC only. Now the final form she had back ( not the one with the 1 2 and 3's on) would have listed immediate improvements and suggestions for further improvements. You need to see what they put there as that is what matters. Normally there would be things there that need to be changed and once they have done those little improvements the suspension is lifted...is that not the case here? What part of the country are we talking about out of interest?

She was also verbally told by somebody high up in the KC (shan't mention names here) that as she didn't have kennel space for the dogs and had too many in the house for them to have a bed each (many were oldies) she should rehome or put to sleep the old ones....... even give them to breed rescue. Many people contacted the KC on this matter (including myself) saying how outraged they were and basically they just denied it had ever been said -no proof as it was over the phone.

Having read the last page of posts I might as well resign from the AB scheme with immediate effect!  I have four dogs, all live in the house (though I do have the absolute luxury of a separate sink for washing their dishes.  Don't know how I managed not to poison myself in the 25 years before I had this installed :-)) and as I type, the sofa and armchair is draped with dogs!  Puppies are whelped upstairs in the back bedroom and when old enough, they are brought down into the utility room.  I do not have any outside facilities other than a securely fenced, paved large back garden. All dogs health tested as per KC and Breed Council guidelines.  I held off joining the AB scheme until last year as I had misgivings about some of the 'breeders' who had joined in the early days.  However, statements made by the KC regarding tightening up of standards etc reassured me and I took the plunge.  I'm now beginning to wonder if I did the right thing......

that is obviously completely out of order if it is true.
when you say "many" I wonder just how many we mean here. There is all the difference in the world for a person to have 4 or 6 dogs living in the house and having free access to everywhere compared with  a home with 20 or 30 dogs in it running everywhere .It would be very difficult to find a quiet area for the bitch and puppies and I can well imagine the advisor thinking whelping conditions weren't ideal. Beds and bedding depend on the breed too don't they. I have 2 dogs stretched out on the cool tiles of the kitchen floor now. They are of a breed who wouldn't give a thank you for a bed but one wouldn't expect to see a toy breed without a nice cosy bed. 3 pugs on a settee are also a different kettle of fish to 3 muddy St Bernards...you see what I mean you need the whole picture. I cannot believe there is no appeal procedure at all and I will look into that.

you DID do the right thing and believe me MOST of the people visited are just like you and there is no problem at all.

From memory, it was either 6 or 8 dogs. One large breed, one medium.

Thank you for the reassurance summer.  Assessing the circumstances of how people raise their puppies is not easy and I don't think you can apply strict 'carved in stone' guidelines.  I have a friend who has been in his breed for 40 years.  If you saw his house you would immediately think "Oh Oh, what's going on here" (it's a man on his own ;-)) However, if anyone asked me for a recommendation for a puppy of his breed, he would be top of the list.  All health checks done, puppies reared like kings and all adult dogs fit, healthy and happy.  If only he looked after himself as well as he looked after his dogs :-)

> I held off joining the AB scheme until last year as I had misgivings about some of the 'breeders' who had joined in the early days.  However, statements made by the KC regarding tightening up of standards etc reassured me and I took the plunge.  I'm now beginning to wonder if I did the right thing......

ditto