Like I say all trainers will vary regardles of their approaches. Reward based methods are not benign. If they were they wouldn't work as the dog would have no motivation. I don't generally teach retrieving ect so have no experience of the forced retrieve shown in those videos. I do have alot of experience of teaching variouse different behaviours (including copmplex ones and ones the dog is not keen on e;g not chasing) with e collars and always use the collar at a low level with no stress.

Banning e collars will not stop abusive training! the forced reterieve with an e collar would be replaced by forced retrieve with pinching. In my opinion if peopel are going to use aversives they will. The e collar is the nicest aversive you can find. It just sounds bad.

On the subject of body language. I read it fine thank you. I just don't subscribe to the idea that any appeasment signals equal stress ect. I spend a signficant amount of my time observing dog interaction and frequently see all the dogs occasionally offer appeasment to another (even a dominant dog to a submissive dog) the appeasment is a natural inclination to encourage group cohesion. When trainign dogs they will offer the occasional appeasement gesture to remind you that your all part of the same team. Dogs probably find it a bit werid that we don't do the same.
The only time dogs don't do this is when they are being worked in drive. If you watch videos of e collar trained dogs doing some work they don't offer appeasement as their in drive. Watch the pit video, when the trainer works him with the toy there's no appeasment.

Btw I don't think I've made this personal, certainly considering whats said about me I consider my replies to be rather nice.

Adam

Like I say all trainers will vary regardles of their approaches. Reward based methods are not benign.

I don't understand what you mean by this?

I don't generally teach retrieving ect so have no experience of the forced retrieve shown in those videos. I do have alot of experience of teaching variouse different behaviours (including copmplex ones and ones the dog is not keen on e;g not chasing) with e collars and always use the collar at a low level with no stress.

You don't have experience of it yet you claimed that no such thing existed and you couldn't make a Rottie do anythingn it didn't want to, clearly not the case and just weakens your credibility.

Banning e collars will not stop abusive training! the forced reterieve with an e collar would be replaced by forced retrieve with pinching. In my opinion if peopel are going to use aversives they will. The e collar is the nicest aversive you can find. It just sounds bad.

The fact that you believe that is just incredibly worrying, clearly you aren't stupiod Adam but to say things such e collars being the nicest aversive you can have is just not factual.  Apart from all the damage they can and do do, dogs vary so what one dog will find aversive another won't so to generalise liek that about soemthing that can cause so much damage, again just weakens your credibility further.

On the subject of body language. I read it fine thank you. I just don't subscribe to the idea that any appeasment signals equal stress ect. I spend a signficant amount of my time observing dog interaction and frequently see all the dogs occasionally offer appeasment to another (even a dominant dog to a submissive dog) the appeasment is a natural inclination to encourage group cohesion. When trainign dogs they will offer the occasional appeasement gesture to remind you that your all part of the same team. Dogs probably find it a bit werid that we don't do the same.
The only time dogs don't do this is when they are being worked in drive. If you watch videos of e collar trained dogs doing some work they don't offer appeasement as their in drive. Watch the pit video, when the trainer works him with the toy there's no appeasment.

You have provided evidence to the contrary Adam, you gave links to training videos with the e collar and used them to back up your argument when infact all they did was show that you can't read body language well.  You seem to have latched onto the word appeasment but tyere were lots of things that showed stress in thoe videos and appeasment is relevant and is important to looka at the context and other factors that go with it.  I don't kow which video you are refering to, all the links to the ones I provided showed extremely stressed unhappy dogs shown in a verity of way, but caused by one major thing!

Btw I don't think I've made this personal, certainly considering whats said about me I consider my replies to be rather nice.

Yes Adam you have remained polite but don't say you haven't made this personal because you have, my heart breaks for the dogs that are subjected to this kind of abuse, it is frustrating at the very least that you are provided with plenty of evidence to show what you are saying is not factully correct and yet you carry on spouting the same stuff.  It is because of trainers like you that other trainers get a bad name, or leave your average pet owner doing damage to their relatioships with their dogs and to their dogs emotional and physical wellbeing, while many of us are fighting to show people that positive training is the way forward, causing far less stress to animals and peaople while building far stronger relationships with their canine family members and the use of such devoices just ets it back time and time again, that all makes it very very personal!!

Hi helenmd, I might have missed that message of karenclynes--I was trying to keep out of this because I didn't have anything constructive to add. But having made myself watch a bit of the video I am really confused about the protocols of using this site. I am certainly not getting at anyone, far from it--but aren't we meant to be sharing good practice? Don't the moderators cut us off if we break away from the OP's context? In this case it was the risk of her dog killing hens, and we seem to have got into a horrible wrangle about a method of training that belongs in the dark ages--as far from good practice as it could possibly be. In my opinion that first video link was nothing less than pornography--who could possibly put a lead or hammer into a dog's mouth and listen to it pleading and crying like that? It was obscene.

I can't quote, so this could be a tricky post lol.

1ST, I mean reward based is seen as harmless, its not.

2nd I have no experience of the extreme forced retrieves shown in the vids, but I do train the odd dog to retrieve. Sometimes using an averisve method (e collar) as well as reward based.

3rd E collars can be used at the lowest level the dog feels it (see vids) other aversives can't. If you ban e collars people will continue to use aversives but they will be more severe than e collars. All dogs feel an e collar (at different levels) and all have the same reaction to it at the forst level they feel. This is just phsiology (sp). Sopund aversives, dominant interaction ect is the variable thing. Same as food or toys.
This is from my experience of dozens of dogs and from experience with 100s 1000s of dogs (other trainers) across the world.

4th All trainign will elicit stress (mildly) and appeasement gestures (out of drive) there is no way to change behaviour without stress, no matter what people want. Stress doesn't have to be bad by the way.

5th Sorry if you feel that way but my experience is otherwise.

Adam

yes if someone wants no stress for their child do not send them to school ! least of all college that is very very stressful!! of course so is not being able to earn a decent living! catch 22 here is the same dog from the earlier video I'm certain there will be someone who will see the shear terror and fear in the poor dogs actions http://www.youtube.com/user/panzertoo#p/u/24/9cXYsPNWJd4 here they are shocking a poor puppy with a pager http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i7PDAPRiNQ and a poor deaf dog it looks so confused the tucked tail and cowering is so sad its terrifed to even explore http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cXYsPNWJd4 and this dog is clearly terrifed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGvE2J4w8Lw and I'm pretty sure this one is so confused http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghyu0iEGJis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1lLJGmqXGY even let kids shock them this is dog trained with a pinch collar its easy to see the attitude is much better http://www.youtube.com/user/tripperwood#p/u/7/K_tXuwvj47k than this poor dog getting repeatedly shocked http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr-lXe3o_ac  after this I'm certain they will be banned worldwide! the little chocolate by far has the best attitude

Adam said  1ST, I mean reward based is seen as harmless, its not

I have seen several references recently both in this thread and another one saying that reward based training can be harmful. Please can you elaborate on what is causing the harm, the signs the dog is exhibiting that it is being harmed and exactly what is being harmed by reward based training. Preferably with references to prove that harm is being done.

I have 4 dogs here that have been clicker trained or trained with rewards since the day they arrived here  and they are happy healthy well balanced dogs who love to be trained. I cannot see that I have harmed them but perhaps you can enlighten me?

Adam, the videos show dogs suffering and that's that. If you can't see it, then you should not be a dog trainer.

Re appeasement.
I've just done my dissertation and mine was all about whether stress and appeasement are linked. As you may know, dissertations do have to be scientific, even at undergraduate level. The conclusion I came to was that (context considered - and the context I studied was "dog training by pet owners") then yes, they are linked to stress. And that's just my little study done on my little patch, with pet owners doing their own training with their own methods, being videoed and the dog behaviour compared against an ethogram, and using and referencing plenty of other information both for and against. Critical analysis and all that.

I too am unsure as to why this has not been locked, because the thread now has nothing whatsoever to do with the original question.

I can't actually bring myself to watch any video's that are showing cruelty to dogs because the 'trainer' doesn't actually really know how to train a dog.

At the end of the day any tom, dick or harry can bully and cause pain to a dog to make it react in the way that they want...this same person will also think they are great and the best trainer on the block when the dog gives in because of the pain and starts doing what they want.

A good and respected trainer or behaviourist will find the route cause of any problem that is occuring and will work with the owner and dog to alleviate this.  They will train in a positive, reward based way which offers praise with voice, treats, toys, pat on the back etc which the dog will respond to.  Sometimes you have to wait a little longer to see great results from training with kindest but you will end up with relaxed dog who is happy to respond to his/her's owners commands.  A dog that has been trained through punishment i.e electric collars, physical force etc will do what his/her's owner wants because they fear the shock/pinch etc.

I have been brought up with GSD's and Rottie's since tiny, I own an Akita, Rottie's and Staffie and all have been trained through positive methods. 

Also I am not sure about the comment over forced retrieves...why would a Rottie be any harder to force to do something???  I think Adam needs to learn a little more about the breeds.  I have owned Rottie's for many, many years and all of mine have jumped at the chance to work...they are a working breed. My Akita would not retrieve so I worked and worked with her (through reward methods) and she soon learned to have fun doing it...no force needed!!!

In my opinion that first video link was nothing less than pornography--who could possibly put a lead or hammer into a dog's mouth and listen to it pleading and crying like that? It was obscene.

Agree. It sickens so many of us, for good reason. It is, actually, abuse and torture, without meaning to be too dramatic, but rather, factual :(

Lindsay
x

Hi
I bought myself 3 chickens about 10 weeks ago. I have them in a small coop 6ft x 3ft.
I have a 4 year old weimeraner and an 8 year old doberman. The doberman just walked up to the coup an dlooked at the chickens and has pretty much ignored them eversince, The weim on the other hand was obsessed with them for about a week. I actually thought that he was going to go mad with frustration, he would go into the garden through the dog flap and stand at the coop shaking with anticipation. I actually thought for a while he wouldnt leave them alone.
As i said that was 10 weeks ago. Now he occassionally goes to the coop and watches them but he doesnt have too much interest in them now.
I have in the last week taken to letting the chickens out if the coop to roam the garden for a couple of hours but i shut the dog flap and lock the back door so he cannot get out. So at the moment he is very interested in them again but i obvioulsy dont let him out.
I dont htink i would trust him to be in the garden with the chickens unless he was on his lead but when the weather gets better i am going to try sitting out there with them all together.
I have a13 year old cat and the chickens chase it across the garden if she goes too close. Very funny indeed.

So my point maybe would be perhaps you could have chickens in your garden in a coop and you could get him used to them. My dog cannot get into the coup as the wire is strong and it stands on concrete so he couldnt dig underneath.Maybe your neighbour would lend you a chicken or two and put them in a dog crate so he could get used to them and he wouldnt be able to get them.Perhaps for an hour or two at a time.