We want to put breeding restrictions on our bitch puppies and lift later on, my question is can you restrict just certain dogs/ bitches in a litter or does the whole litter have to be restricted.

Hi Triona

If you are planning to register the litter online you apply the restrictions on each individual puppy as you register them. We had 9 last year and all had restrictions bar one (the one we wanted to keep).

If you're planning to keep one and won't make your decision until the last minute, just register all bar one with restrictions, then just make sure it's that registration you keep when the pups go.

The individual pups aren't matched with their KC name until you hand the paperwork over.

You can restrict just some, (I am exporting one of mien and didn't put endorsements on oen registration) but it is best to restrict all, not just the bitches.

I normally endorse all the litter including the one I am keeping.  Mine are matched to their papers when ear tattooed.

I wish the Kennel club had an opt out rather than opt in system for endorsements, meaning all pups should be endorsed unless breeder chooses otherwise for good reason.

Endorsing puppies is  sign of responsibility, only lifting if the dog/bitch is worthy of being bred from (health,conformation, temperament).

All have restrictions on my pups pedigrees, I didnt do it with my first litter...have since found out that a lady who bought the only bitch from that litter has bred her when she was 11mths old..the pups werent KC registered!!
I rang her up to ask what she was doing breeding at such a young age.....reply...I have the stud and the bitch, just thought Id give it a go and its my dog anyway.....now all have restrictions.

very Scary.  I'm a potential first time breeder (we're planning our first litter in the next few weeks depending on seasons) after 3 years worth of research and visits to breeders, shows and talking to our vets. 

After talking to breeders and reading horror stories on here I will definately be applying full endorsements to any puppies I sell (with the exception of any puppies going to friends, family or experienced breeders that might be interested).  My bitch is from a vulnerable breed with less than 90 puppied a year registered with KC. 

I have nothing against people breeding off any puppies I breed as its a fantastic breed that could benefit from a more diverse selection of pedigrees to choose from - but I would want them to take the same amount of care as I have. 

I would be prepared to lift breeding restrictions after all health testing had been done, a stud dog with no cross overs for a minimum of 3 generations and if they could just show me they'd done a bit of research. If this puts people off then they clearly don't deserve one of my puppies! 

Any idea how i can write researching breeding into a contract as I know this could be a bit of a sticking point - realistically a chat on the phone and letting me visit their bitch would re-assure me but how can I put this in?

any help would be appreciated

>I will definately be applying full endorsements to any puppies I sell (with the exception of any puppies going to friends, family or experienced breeders that might be interested)

Isn't is easier, safer, and fairer to apply endorsements to every pup?

Families aren't always as reliable as we'd hope, friends can disappoint you, and experienced breeders would expect to see endorsements anyway.  'One rule for all' may save you from embarrassing or uncomfortable conversations later and there's no telling how each dog will turn out. 

**I don't breed but I find it reassuring to see breeders using endorsements :)

That is a good point - If I was looking to buy a puppy I'd be surprised if it didn't have restrictions on it and would expect to speak to the breeder about whether they would be prepared to lift them in the future (when they reached the right age, after doing health testing etc.)  So should I not expect a breeder to do the same. 

Family - well the only person who will be having a puppy is my parents whom I part own my bitch with anyway so realistically there is no way I would apply restrictions to their dog (couldn't even if I wanted to since my mum joint owns her with me)  they may well decide to breed off their puppy at some point but if they do I know that they will do everything needed and I'll be heavily involved (realistically I'll probably do most of the stud searching, health testing etc.)

My friend who wants a puppy for fly ball & agility is looking to castrate him anyway so it would make no difference to her to have endorsements on the KC certificate.

There's no way of knowing that any puppy I choose to keep would be healthy enough, have a hip score or temprement good enough to breed from (although I hope I have done everything possible to ensure that these will be as good or better than my current bitch - who is exceptional :) )

There is an information guide booklet available from the KC with regard to putting on the restriction
"Progeny Not Eligible for Registration".   Also info available from the KC here -
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=1735&d=pg_dtl_art_news&h=243&f=0

I would suggest anyone considering putting on this Endorsement read and follow the guidlines with care so as not to be caught out at a later date by a puppy purchaser who tries to get around the restriction. The puppy purchaser has to have their attention brought to the Endorsement and sign to agree to it and accept they understand the implications. Also the breeder is supposed to give the conditions under which the Endorsement would be removed, if any, at the time the puppy is sold.

After talking to breeders and reading horror stories on here I will definately be applying full endorsements to any puppies I sell (with the exception of any puppies going to friends, family or experienced breeders that might be interested). 

Endorse them all as you don't know what the future holds. I have made the mistake of not endorsing certain pups as I trusted people I had known for years. NEVER again. An endorsement can so easily be removed, but once registered without it and transferred to a new owner, can't be put on.

"Endorse them all as you don't know what the future holds. I have made the mistake of not endorsing certain pups as I trusted people I had known for years. NEVER again. An endorsement can so easily be removed, but once registered without it and transferred to a new owner, can't be put on."

Very wise words there MarianneB!

We put restrictions on the whole litter, boys and girls, even the ones we are keeping.  Much safer that way.

"We put restrictions on the whole litter, boys and girls, even the ones we are keeping.  Much safer that way."

Exactly. It also stops the documentation being stolen to register false litters or the use of KC documentation by a dodgy breeder who is not entitled to it. Something that happend to me and the thief was stopped from registering the litter because of the endorsed registration document.

We constantly see pups advertised on the internet which state both parents are KC registered but puppies will not be registered. Lots of these litters most likely have at least one parent with an endorsed KC registration document.

I endorse the whole litter, even those I keep.. We can always remove restrictions if and when neccessary.

"I endorse the whole litter, even those I keep.. We can always remove restrictions if and when neccessary."

A big problem is that a lot of outstanding dogs and bitches are prevented being bred from because the KC will not allow the lifting of an endorsement for the registering of one litter. It's complete removal or nothing.

If a breeder who placed an endorsement wants to allow one well planned litter to be bred but not to risk complete removal of the endorsement it cannot be done under present KC rules. They have been approached to look at this matter but with no result so far.

fully agree with dog babe....mine  all   get resrictions especially to friends and family and experienced breeders!!! I once sold one to someone id known in the breed for years and made the mistaking of trusting them to use him on the right bitch, if any,,,,,but they went ahead without any health testing of dog or bitch, and the bitch was not the best!

> A big problem is that a lot of outstanding dogs and bitches are prevented being bred from because the KC will not allow the lifting of an endorsement for the registering of one litter.

In my breed, to be honest.. this is not such a bad thing.. we have over 47000 pups registered per year.. so the odd outstanding dog not being able to register progeny is no great hardship... there are more than enough great dogs out there to choose from... I can however see this could affect other breeds

"I can however see this could affect other breeds"

Indeed it does seriously affect other breeds where numbers bred need to be controlled by responsible breeders for welfare reasons. An already small genepool becomes even smaller because of this endorsement ruling. However the KC will not be moved to consider these issues.

I'd have thought that legally, there is nothing the KC CAN do. I mean, you sell a dog, it is endorsed, all agreed on that, no problem. Then you lift the endorsement, but no longer own the dog, so how could you possibly put it back again? I'm pretty sure that by law, it would never work. We already know that unless both parties sign to accept it in the first place, it isn't valid. If you buy something, by law you can do what you want with it -whether we like it or not. It also wouldn't be legal to sell a pup on the agreement that they cannot mate it to whichever dog they want -much as we all like to put clauses like that in our contracts.You don't have that sort of control once you have sold. It's all trust. The only way you could do it would be to co-own the bitch with the buyer. Personally I think that if somebody has carried out what I expect (in my case, hips, eyes, dog looking good enough, no major faults, good temperament and having proven itself either in the show ring or in any form of work) and I trust the person enough to lift the endorsement, then I need to trust them full stop, or not lift it at all. Imagine the abuse there could be if endorsements could be put back on. You fall out with somebody and find your best bitch suddenly is endorsed again, even after having had a litter of excellent pups, as an example. It would be a can of worms.

>A big problem is that a lot of outstanding dogs and bitches are prevented being bred from because the KC will not allow the lifting of an endorsement for the registering of one litter.

Isn't that a bit short sighted of the breeder?  Sort of cutting off ones nose to spite ones face...

If the breeder is so anxious about the long term future of their breed and does not feel that anyone else can make these decisions with their dogs then they could look at co owning or retaining ownership.

However if they are comfortable with their chosen owner and have coached, encouraged, and mentored them to make a good decision about the first litter then surely they must trust that owner to continue in the same vein.  Education is the key and if they stay in touch with their owners it's likely they will be consulted again even though the decision will rest with the owner.  Breeders of vulnerable breeds may have to play a more active and very important part in the education of new owners and it's a long term relationship that requires trust to maintain.

"All have restrictions on my pups pedigrees, I didnt do it with my first litter...have since found out that a lady who bought the only bitch from that litter has bred her when she was 11mths old..the pups werent KC registered!!
I rang her up to ask what she was doing breeding at such a young age.....reply...I have the stud and the bitch, just thought Id give it a go and its my dog anyway.....now all have restrictions. "

Unfortunately placing restrictions only prevents litters being registered, it doesn't stop the anyone from breeding.

sadly very true! :(

MarianneB and dogs a babe - Obviously I didn't explain that well enough for you to get my point. The required action by the KC that would be very useful would be to allow breeders who have endorsed registrations to lift them for one breeding to take place.

Whatever a breeder does to protect their puppies dogs can get sold on. It is not possible to mentor anyone who wishes to obtain KC registered stock for the extra kudos when they breed fighting dogs, dogs for illegal coursing and other despicable purposes. Fortunately it appears folks on this thread have never had dreadful experiences with the criminal fratenity who wish to obtain KC registered stock for various purposes.

Indeed co owning or retaining ownership is the only secure way to deal with it. However the ownership as given on a KC registration form is not legal ownership.

The required action by the KC that would be very useful would be to allow breeders who have endorsed registrations to lift them for one breeding to take place.

Okay but I still don't get what difference it would make? Why would one litter be safe but not another? Why trust a person once but not twice? If you have such serious problems, perhaps it would be better to simply NEVER lift endorsements unless it was to an already established breeder you could get references for?

The difference would be that a dog or bitch would be able to pass on its genes but the endorsement would still be in place to enable the dog to still be protected against being exploited or over used by an inexperienced owner.

In some breeds which have very few puppies registered per year more stud dogs are needed to expand the genepool. In some cases these dogs are there but cannot be used at stud, even by their breeders, without removal of the endorsement. A temporary waiver of the endorsement by signed agreement lodged with the KC for each litter bred is what is needed.

Ah, so you are mainly talking about dogs as opposed to bitches? I can see that point, yes, makes sense indeed. Never thought of it that way before.

I put endorsements on the whole litter.  Both dogs and bitches.  And discuss reasons with new owner, asking them to understand and sign that I have explained things to them.

I realise that I have no control over people that will go ahead and breed anyway, not bothering that the pups can't be registered.  But, like most on here, have to hope that I have been sensible in my choice of puppy owners.  I suppose I'm lucky in so much as my breeds have very small litters.

This year I had to phone the KC and let them know that I intended to breed from a bitch that I had kept for myself.  Had to put it in writing, obviously, but wondered how I would have got on if I had forgotten until after she had been mated.  As I sometimes register a litter before I've made a final decision on which to keep, it's easier for me to put endorsements on the lot.  (As long as I remember to lift them for myself!)

I put endorsements on every puppy I breed, including any going to friends or family. I also put restrictions on any puppy I keep as I don't always know which name I want, etc until the last minute.  I have removed the restriction at the last minute to register a litter (completely forgot to do it before mating, etc) and the KC had no issue with this.

Worth knowing.  Thank you.

I had a litter once where the breeder of the stud dog had forgotten to remove the endorsement so the first thing any of us knew about it was when I tried to register the pups. It was no problem, sorted within days.

I have had both situations, forgot to remove them from the bitch whose litter I was trying to register, and with her second litter I had forgotten to remove the endorsement on the dog I used who I had bred. 

Both resulted in a quick call from the KC asking me to send in a letter.

Same here Barabara, I registered pups from a girl I had bred.. KC phoned to let me know I had not lifted restrictions on the dam.. and asked me to send in a letter... restrictions lifted and pups registered.