Lokis mum.

Yes definatly.

Adam

> I've seen dogs raisded in a totally reward based way who were totally out of control and aggressive

Caused through reward-based traing or POOR trainig? There is a huge difference. If people can scerw up thier dogs to the point of causing them agression issues by giving them a reward just imagine the damage done if they had been giving them a shock from an e-collar instead

The same people that can't implement reward-based traing to the desired effect still have access to averise methods, it's very, very worrying to think that these poeple can read how 'great' e-collars are and think they would have better results with them. If they can't get results with reward-based methods,  thier understanding of dogs & thier timing is very poor which leaves MASSIVE room for seriously dangerous behaviour problems using aversives :( :(

Two dogs I met were both people aggresisve (one to the owner, one to strangers) owners had been taking and following advice from  very ''approved'' trainers.
1st dog had learned that if he displayed aggression his owner would use a positive interuption (bed command) and reward that. He learn to display the aggresison as it guaranteed a reward via the positive interuption. The owner was also advised to reward all none aggression, of course you can't give treats 24/7 so the dog learned the best way to get a treat was threaten the owner and get the positive interuption.

2nd dog dislike strangers, was on an extensive counter conditioning and desensitisation programe but wasn't suffiecently motivated by treats and was too keen (for whatever reason) on attacking people to desensitise to them. He would seemingly improve then regress, trainers advice was to go back a step in the programe when the dog deteriorated but the owner spent 6 months not getting past a certain point and the dog was still aggressive when he wanted to be.

Yes I wasn't nicey nicey with either dog, but at the same time both are now happy social dogs who aren't aggressive.

Reward based training simply isn't sufficent for dogs who can self reward or arn't sufficently motivated by it.

The reality is people who can't use reward based methods to good effect do use aversives to good effect and with very positive results for the dog.

Adam

> 1st dog had learned that if he displayed aggression his owner would use a positive interuption (bed command) and reward that.

OK, why on earth would a dog show agressive behaviour to it's owner in the first place?
If the owner had brought the dog up on reward-based traning there would be no need atall for the dog to show agression. Confrontational/averisve methods or lack of understadning of canine body language/communication elicit agressive responses in dogs. This may then lead to a behavioural problem which will apear as if the dog is agressive 'for no reason', but the reason is the dog has learnt it has to be like that (unless it has a medical problem that causes agression).

> The reality is people who can't use reward based methods to good effect do use aversives to good effect and with very positive results for the dog.

But the reason people fail with reward based trainig is simply due to poor trainig, not the 'reward' part. For people that lack understanding, punishing a behaviour is far easier than teaching the desired behaviour, or even rewarding desired behaviour. Rewarding behaviour sounds simple, but as in your example, a dog can learn how to manipulate the reward from the owner by doing the beahviour that the owner wants to be rid of. This is not a failing of reward-based trainnig - the method - It's a failing of implementing the method.

> He would seemingly improve then regress, trainers advice was to go back a step in the programe when the dog deteriorated but the owner spent 6 months not getting past a certain point and the dog was still aggressive when he wanted to be.

If the owner/trainer had been putting the dog in situations which made him feel he needed to be agressive, the desentisation programme was not  implemented correctly - a failing on the owners/trainers part, not reward-based training  :(

I've learned my techniques from trainers ect I know of lots of trainers in the uk who use them,

Don't get me wrong, there's plenty about! My friend's gundog circles use shock collars (she herself does not).That's not what my original point was about though, as I explained.

On this subject most trainers who use them don't come on forums or publises their work for the simple reason they get heavy critism/abuse.   
And rightly so. If they are supporting a type of training most genuinely believe, is abusive. Most who do come on forums are usually very nasty types.
If shock collar training was not harmful, then it would take less convincing of others, including myself :)


Lincoln is taking into account basic training I believe. This will be the real clincher in terms of showing that e collars are ok. As used for basic training and low level stuff their totally none stressful.

We won't agree on this. To use aversives and pos.punishment/neg.reinforcement for basics is not necessary and is a betrayal of the age old relationship.

I've seen dogs raisded in a totally reward based way who were totally out of control and aggressive.

Hmm well that's just plain odd. I've never seen this;  not due to the method used. Behaviour problems caused by other things, yes.

Lindsay

Some case histories. Before you say anything Adam, remember that this is how people will use shock collars; some of the cases involved shock collar trainers who were basically abusive, inexpert or just not knowing what to suggest in place of the shock collar! (esp. see case of the deaf dog :( ) :

http://www.apbc.org.uk/sites/default/files/APBC%20Response%20to%20Welsh%20Assembly%20Government%20Consultation.pdf

1.3 Seven-month-old Retriever/Collie.

I saw a family with a seven-month-old Retriever/Collie pup. They were at their
wits' end. The dog would not respond to training of any kind. The breeder had
told them they just had a bad dog and suggested escalating punishment.

They bought a shock collar and used it when the dog 'refused' to pay them
attention. This dog presented as particularly submissive and fearful, however
the over-riding problem was that it was deaf! Dispensing with the shock collar,
we introduced training using a visual (light) marker and three training sessions
made a huge difference.

Expert Behavioural Opinion
The pup was suffering from undiagnosed congenital deafness. It was not able
to hear any commands or warning signals in order for it to avoid the shock.

From the dog's perspective it was being subjected to painful shock for no
apparent reason. The pup was developing fears of almost anything present in
the environment when the shocks took place, resulting in increasing specific
fears and anxiety. This highlights the problem of the general public availability
of electric shock devices and their use without proper diagnosis.

another snippet:

1.2 Twenty-month-old Doberman.
This case was referred as the bitch had been showing increasing aggression
to her owners and this aggression had generalised to many different locations
and scenarios. She was also displaying compulsive behaviours such as
circling the owners' detached house for hours on end. The bitch was
described as a 'problem puppy' and had been asked to leave puppy class.
The owners were particularly bothered about the bitch's lack of recall and a
'behaviourist' introduced them to the remote control electric shock collar.

Very quickly the bitch started to associate being let off the lead with pain and
would start jumping and grabbing at the owners as soon as they let her off
lead. They punished this with a shock. She then started to get aggressive
when they tried to put the lead on to go out of the house so they shocked her.
Eventually the family was in fear of getting up in the night to go to the
bathroom in case they disturbed the dog and she attacked.

When I met this bitch she was thin, her coat was dull and full of scurf. She did
not settle for 1.5 hours after my arrival and during that time was running
around the house grabbing at things randomly and circling. The behaviour
had reached the stage where, despite starting to implement my modification
plan, the family became so afraid of their dog that they had her put to sleep a
few weeks after my visit.
Expert Behavioural Opinion
The Doberman reacted to the pain of the electric collar with aggression,
associating that pain with being let off the lead. From the dog's perspective
therefore, anyone who tried to let the dog off the lead was responsible for the
pain. Attempts by the dog to prevent people letting her off the lead produced
further shocks. The fear of this generalised to any touching of the collar and
lead. The dog associated the proximity of the owners with the pain of the
shock and defended itself from them. The owners were trapped in a cycle of
using the electric collar on the dog for bad behaviour, which caused the bad
behaviour, which resulted in more electric collar, which caused worse
behaviour, ad infinitum. The use of an electric collar on this dog caused an
escalating aggression problem it did not previously have, ultimately resulting
in the dog's destruction.

Sad, real case histories, showing what happens when trainers, self styled but inexpert "behaviourists" and joepublic use shock collars.
There are more case histories, I've just taken out 2 to show some of what has happened to some dogs.

The only way this can be stopped is to stop the production and availability of shock collars. Whatever the Lincoln study indicates. Or, to make shock collars so that they cannot be used on painful levels - at least that would be something.

Lindsay

v

Dog had started as a puppy and learned to control the owner and influence the owners behaviour to his own benifit by growling. It got worse as he got older. Owner was raising the pup along the lines of the Gwen Bailey book '' the perfect puppy '' ?

People fail with reward training because the reward isn't sufficent motivation for the dog in many cases. Or the dog learns some easier or more fun way to get the reward. Or because another reward out competes the first.

Owner may not be able to manage the behaviour sufficently to prevent aggression. In actual fact this owner was but was unable to get the dog beyond the point were they stayed at for 6 months.

Adam

People will always use things badly. Even benign things to be unpleasent to the dog. So what? ban leads, ban boots, sticks, rocks ect. The intent of a thing doesn't matter to the dog, just the effect.

Re the studies.

1st, So the first dogs owners weren't sufficently educated to get the dog vet checked and to realise it was deaf. If they didn't use an e collar they'd probably have hit the dog instead. Which would have been worse for the relationship than the e collar.

2nd one. Dog seemed to have sterotypical behaviour. On the training front, they would have made the dog aggressive no matter what they did because they didn't understand her. No e collar no difference imo. They would have used another approach and messed it up.
Also I'd like to point out the dog could have been fixed using an e collar (and possible rehomed if the owners were scared of her).

Stopping use of e collars won't stop this. People will always want aversive control of the dog (wether they need it or not) and will use other more damaging methods.  

Adam

> Owner was raising the pup along the lines of the Gwen Bailey book '' the perfect puppy '' ?

If that was the case then I think Gwen Bailey would be appalled to hear it. And I am disgusted that you even brought her name into it. I think that just about sums up your ethics and morals.

I'd be careful using people's names in threads like this Adam, as you never know who may be reading, and she certainly has better lawyers than you.

Better people than you have been threatened for far less on online forums after unwisely dropping a well-known name into a thread like this.

Not a good career move Adam, as if your attitudes online aren't already digging you into a bit of a deep hole. I hope you have a second career option lined up.

Adam I may have missed this somewhere along the line.  Are you a trainer of some kind (as a profession I mean)?  If so, do you advertise and mention your use of e collars?

My reason for asking is that we often get people on here who have experienced problems of some kind with their dogs.  Most users generally refer them to the APDT site for help in finding a good trainer or behaviourist.

Could they actually find you by mistake?  I'm not being rude but if I wanted some help I'd be horrified to find that I'd inadvertantly called someone who supported the use of e collars and you'd be off my property very fast.  However, it's not in my nature to waste anyones time and I'd like to know that you could be chosen only by e collar supporters (I don't know any) but avoided by people like me.

Please be assured I'm not making trouble just worried that someone could end up with the wrong sort of trainer - and not know how to get out of it

I think we have decided on finding a decent kennel and run for Pip to go in during some periods in the day.  Maybe one of the other dogs could be in it with him for company sometimes.

!t has now been some days since he has been after the chickens.  He and the other three did get out via the garage door the day before yesterday - which I had thought the builders had closed - but we managed to catch them again quite quickly.  Have to say that once the builders have finished life will be much much easier but they are likely to be here for some time yet!

Snowflake

People will always use things badly. Even benign things to be unpleasent to the dog. So what? ban leads, ban boots, sticks, rocks ect. The intent of a thing doesn't matter to the dog, just the effect.

Adam once again this is the same old, same old. Blame the tools, blame the owners - never blame the fact that shock collars are available to use and are recommended, as often in these cases, by "professionals" who prefer to use them, eh?

The fact is that shock collars are "a method of training" which often promises miracles, THAT is why people use them. I don't agree the same people would cause such damage by hitting etc.

Putting a collar on and using a remote (that word "remote" is a clue) is far easier and less morally objectionable to some, than physically kicking/hitting/using a rock as you put it, (which is against the law and can cause damage). It's a no brainer.AFter all, it's just training, not abuse ;)

I also think bringing someone's name into this is pretty low. The person you mention has done more for dogs than most.
One other thing is that this thread was not about shock collars, although they did come into it. As usual, they've taken over the original thread and I think it's better to acknowledge that and let the thread get back to what it was about.

Lindsay

I think we have decided on finding a decent kennel and run for Pip to go in during some periods in the day.  Maybe one of the other dogs could be in it with him for company sometimes.

!t has now been some days since he has been after the chickens.  He and the other three did get out via the garage door the day before yesterday - which I had thought the builders had closed - but we managed to catch them again quite quickly.  Have to say that once the builders have finished life will be much much easier but they are likely to be here for some time yet!

That sounds like a plan. It will certainly be much easier once the builders have gone! I would definitely give Pip company as just being out there on his own may be boring for him; plus, if they will share safely, some ingeniously stuffed kongs. I'd also not rely on the builders at all - even though they may be really nice people. Just check everything all the time!!!! :)

Good luck
Lindsay
x

>Even benign things to be unpleasent to the dog. So what? ban leads, ban boots, sticks, rocks ect.

The usual desperate attempt to justify the use of a tool that is designed solely to cause pain to another creature.

Only mentioned the name becaue of the dog in question. Maybe they didn't follow the advice properly (it's certainly a good book).

Re the other stuff about e collars, I think when you consider the numbers in use compared to the case studies mentioned and when you consider how often e collars in the uk are only used as a last resort (e;g before dog is destroyed) e collars come off very favourable.

On the advertsing front, all word of mouth atm so yes most/all will know about the e collar. If they don't (and I think the dog will need it) I'll discuss it over the phone. Interestingly I've gone to cases were the client has been anti e collar initially but after seeing it in use has decied to go for one.

E collars arn't designed to cause pain, pain is counter productive tolearning and dogs learn very well with e collars.

Adam

BTW that's good news with Pip.

>E collars arn't designed to cause pain

Static shocks are painful. Shock collars are designed to give a static shock. Therefore shock collars are specifically designed to be painful. QED.

I have read this with thread with interest.
My dog is not a predatory chaser, but i once had terrible recall problems with him.
I used a technique similar to the one described by David Ryan http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk
for chasing problems, and  found it worked so well, I wondered why I had ever thought of using food treats as a reward before.
I  also used a spray collar (noise aversive) with some benefit with him.
The two together seeed to make the difference.
I would recomend giving his method a try, using a long lead for safety to start with.

Snowflake, do you have room at home to get yourself a kennel and contained run? If the builders are going to be with you for a while, by the time you've paid various kennel fees it will probably be no more expensive, and at least you know he's with you and you can swap your other dogs around with him? Could be a useful thing to have on an ongoing basis too, as you know he needs to be secure at times.

M.

Adam , have you watched the video by Jesus Rosales-Ruis called the Poisioned Cue ? If so what are your thoughts on it ?

Hi JG. Static/electric doesn't hurt if its low enough. The trouble is your equating static with the static off a car, this is alot higher than the static from an e collar. E collars are more like tens machines.

Adam

E collars are more like tens machines.

I have used an E collar on myself and it is nothing like tens machine!!  Dog have a much higher pain threshold than we do and if the collar is aversive enough to interupt their behaviour when they are in 'prey mode' then of course it's painful!

>E collars are more like tens machines.

Which can also be extremely painful on a high setting and is uncomfortable and unpleasant at the low settings. So that's no recommendation for shock collars at all.

The modern e collars have so many settings you or the dog won't feel them on the lowest settings, when you start to feel them its a tingling sensation. I would suggest the tens machine you experienced was set too high.

Adam

I would imagine the e collar you used KC was set too high then. If it is painful, its too high!
With regards to the prey drive mode, I tend to work the dog at threshold (see earlyier in thread) so dog isn't in full drive.
However when I have had to use the collars to stop a chase I've GRADUALLY turned the dial and the reaction the dog has given when chasing has been the same as when dog feels the collar for the first time.
As an example I used an e collar on a jrt recently. When finding his working level he looked at his chest when he felt the collar. When stopping him in a full sheep chase I turned the collar up and when he felt the collar again he looked at his chest.
Note, sheep appeared unexpectedly in the woods we were walking in.

Adam     

>when you start to feel them its a tingling sensation.

Yes - and that's unpleasant and aversive.

I've never denied that an e collar stim is unpleasent/aversive, thats the point if your using it as punishment/negative reinforcment. However aversive does not equal cruel/abusive/welfare issue. It can be argued that even purely positive training will have an element of aversive for the dog.

Interestingly a dog will cease to view the stim as aversive if associated with something pleasent (counter conditioning) if you want you can associate the stim with food and use it as a clicker!

On the subject of clickers many dogs view this noise as an aversive at first.

On the subject of aversive's my experience is the main benifit of the e collar isn't the aversive but rather the alien nature of the aversive and the fact that its contingent on the dogs behaviour (doesn't know your doing it). So a dog who will ignore massive lead corrections in favour of doing something else will stop when it feels the stim dispite the fact the stim is a much milder aversive to it than the lead corrections.

Adam

> I've never denied that an e collar stim is unpleasent/aversive,

But yes you have.... both here and on other forums!

You've repeatedly tried to tell people it doesn't hurt/it's only a little shock/it's like a tens machine.
For pete's sake, I have used a tens machine to relieve chronic pain, if it bothered me more than the orginal pain it would have gone straight in the bin or I would have walked out the practitioner's office.

You can't come on here and in ONE post say an e-collar doesn't hurt, it's like a tens machine...
Then in the next post say, But it is meant to be unpleasant?

So which IS it Adam?

Can't have your cake and eat it, and if you were trying to stop me eating a cake it would take a LOT more than a tens machine, in fact it would probably need a good jolt of lightning (or a free £1,000 waved in my face in fresh banknotes) to stop me if I was about to bite into a nice chocolate eclair!!!

Don't know who you think you are trying to kid here.... your logic just doesn't stand up.

> On the subject of clickers many dogs view this noise as an aversive at first.

And now this really has turned into a comedy show.

You really want to pit the minority of dogs who dislike the sound of a clicker (possibly because they were not properly introduced to it to start with) against the thousands/millions who love the sound and will do anything for it?

Come on...... next you will be telling us dogs enjoy getting electric shocks!

I don't think anything will change Adam's mind about using these tools on dogs. I, for one, won't waste any energy in trying to put forward my thoughts on the use of these tools. Likewise, I will never change MY mind - use of pain to get results is the sign of a poor trainer

The trouble is when you use this one size fits all approach using punishment and don't take everything into account you aren't doing what is best for the animal or the owner.  Chasing problems are much more prevelant in stressy dogs and often very anxious or stresed dogs use it as a way of making themselves feel better becasue it causes a chemical change in the brain, a release of dopamine which makes them felbetter.  If you are just punishing behaviours which are often symtoms of a biger problem rather than adressing the underlying problems and them as a whole you are being cruel to the dog, however painful or not the use of the e collar is!

Often reducing stress in their lives, noit increasing it by the use of such devices which whether you see it or not they clearly do, (even with the 'support' of your video clips the show increased stressed and they are the less obvious clips as obviously you aren't going to pick the ones for the average dog as you are trying to change peoples mind about them) and giving them and appropriate chase outlet while incresing the bond between owner and dog is enough to remove the need to chase inappropriate things.  Still clearly you aren't able to see the stress you cause by using such devices so don't suppose you are going to be able to see the cause of the problem possibley being stressed dogs in the first place as well as lots of other reasons that would be bettr dealt with at the route cauuse before introducing the use of aversives.

As for your comments on clicker training, i's just rediculous, clicker training is a principle of using a marker to make something clear to the dog.  If a dog is sounds senstive then you use a different marker.

Yopur comments about being able to use the colla for rewarding like you would a clicker are equally rediculous, if you paired something painful with something goo like food, you could end up making the food aversive, or could end up with a very conflicted dog.  With my guys, I can assure you that it would end up with both, though, over my dead body!  I have three with high chase instinct, all under control, all chase for different reasons and all trained with their motivations for chasing in mind, all done with positve relationship building methods.

The e collar on me by the way was not too high a setting, it was a low setting, they just hurt - I don't have a low pain threahsold either, though of course dogs pain thresholds vary just as ours do.  The fac that you can use theis tool on most of the dogs you work with only goes to show hw much you are missing because in readin dogs, because I kow very few dogs if any that could tolerate it without negative consequences and ceftainly don't kow any who would benefit from learning that way over positive ways, quite the contrary!

MT
Things can be unpleasent without causing pain. In fact pain will act as a motivator to a dog in drive so a painful correction from an e collar would be counter productive even in a chase sequence. As I say its not the level of aversive that matters but the presentation of it and the way you teach the dog to turn it off. If you got a mild discomfort everytime you looked at cake and that immediatly stopped when you looked away that would stop you looking with repition. Then of course you wouldn't be able to eat it. The real advantage of the e colalr is the control able duration of the stim means that you can make the wrong behaviour uncomfortable (looking at sheep/chickens or in your case cake) and the right behaviour (looking away) comfortable.

KC
I always provifde a chase out let and reduce stress (if needed). But we should remember dogs are predators and chasing is a fundamental behaviour to them. They are also opportunist so in many cases unless you give them a reason not to chase they will continue to chase.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKqgmo_bEZ0, btw not a huge fan of sit means sit myself.

Adam  

On the subject of pain - the shock collar lead is really painful. Horrendously so, in fact :(
And I mean on the first level (if it has a level - the lowest setting, or the actual setting, whichever it is).

Lindsay

Back to original message,
I have had a major breakthrough with my now 8 month Patterdale that I have being working with to stop her chasing my chickens. Today she slipped past my legs when I opened the gate to the paddocks where the free range chickens wander and ran like mad at a chicken ( my heart flipped as I was sure the chicken would die ) but when she was about 3ft away from the bird she stopped and sat, just looking at the chicken as if to say, I know I shouldn't do this, but I forgot !!!! she almost didn't know what to do between her natural instinct and her training, both pulling in opposite directions.
At this stage I stood still and called her and wow, she actually ran back to me with a perfect recall. I could have hugged her to bits, in fact I gave her a slice of the chicken off my plate ( my dinner) at that moment she could have had the world.
I am so chuffed, we still have a way to go but bless her she is trying so hard to be a good girl and it shows the effort is worth it

Lindsay, I've never used one so can't comment. But I've always thought if your going to use an e collar for a pulling problem why not get a collar that lets you control the dog off lead too! I've had great success with stimming and pulling the dog back into the heel position or stimming and about turning. Obviously in both cases you stop the stim the moment the dog is in the correct spot.

Sillysue

Thats very good progress well done! despite how I come across on here I'm a big supporter of positive training and its obviously working for your patterdale.

Adam

Thats very good progress well done! despite how I come across on here I'm a big supporter of positive training and its obviously working for your patterdale.

Many thanks, however - would she behave the same tomorrow under the same circumstances ? well I'm not holding my breath on that one, but once is a very good start and gives me the incentive to keep on working with her.

Best way to go with it is to try and keep the circumstances similar but not identical. Ws there anythign different done with her in the good scenario than normal, e;g more exercised/playedwith/hungry? Try and replicate this if you can.

Lindsay, I've never used one so can't comment.

It was pretty barbaric and I am thankful they don't seem to be popular.
Really, take my word for it, they are horrible, whatever methods you use.
I guess some people must buy them though, and just feel so sorry
for their dogs.

Lindsay
x

> [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKqgmo_bEZ0," rel=nofollow]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKqgmo_bEZ0,[/url] btw not a huge fan of sit means sit myself.
>

Had a look at some of those  videos and they are horrendous.Why does he use the collar in the dog's groin? Is it not painful enough round its neck?

>Why does he use the collar in the dog's groin?

Sadism, pure and simple. This is exactly why they should be banned.

This is the guy who did the video of the rottie - a "forced retrieve" using a shock collar.
The dog's owners thought it was fine, but the dog was so stressed.
Of course, if you can't read your dog's body language, and you've got a professional telling you he'sjust being a big baby, you'd probably think it was fine,
even though the dog was silently screaming :(

Lindsay
x

I agree Fred Hesen isn't the ebst trainer but the dogs are no more stressed than many positivly trained dogs.

The e collar on groin/flank/hindqquaters/top of neck is no different in terms of what the dog experiences than in standard position. Its a trainer cheat to make learning easier as the dog will respond to physical sensation in different ways on its body, In other words if your training the dog to out off a bite the e collar on the hindquaters makes it easier than on the neck. I've never positioned one anywhere but the neck as I
a, Don't need to, for what I train.
b, Can't be bothered getting the dog used to it before doing it.

Re forced retrieve, its just a term, you can't make a dog do anything it doesn't want to with its mouth (especially a rottie). coined by the usa gundog fraternatiy to differentiate between a dog picking up of its own accord and doing it on command. Has become a general term now.

Adam

Re forced retrieve, its just a term, you can't make a dog do anything it doesn't want to with its mouth (especially a rottie). coined by the usa gundog fraternatiy to differentiate between a dog picking up of its own accord and doing it on command. Has become a general term now.

That's just plain unture, of course you can get a dog to do something it doesn't want to with it's mouth by using punishment when it puts an item down and only stoppin the punishment when it is holding the item, very sad to watch and very real, forced retireve is not just a term!  The term mean the dog felt ithad no other option, which it didn't, absolutely disgusting, beyond appauling training and that poor poor dog, when it could have easily been taught positively and even if it couldn't, well oh well -  there is no excuse for that kind of abuse!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiohmGqNgK0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjRNIf9yMEo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRyoEnmfhx0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLOE1m8L0Gg&feature=related

These are ajust a couple of clips, not easy viewing and certainly (and sickeningly) not the worst I have seen. 

Adam you say you remeove stress if needed but, what is the point of remving stress if you are then just going to add more stress! It also is very evident (given the videos you have previsouly put up to supposrt your argumant) that you can't read stress very well so am very certain you are missing stress signals.  It really isn't as black and white as dogs are predators and therefore will chase to kill for food!  It's a little mkore complex than that.  Two of my chasers would go looking for things to chase when they have been stressed by a big incident for the reasons as explained previously, it gives them a boost that makes them feel bette and relieves stress.  You really are very basic in your appraoch to things and they are rarely that black and white.  If you deal with the reasons behind the chasing in the first place there often isn't a chase problem at all.

With regards to you clip - I'm not quite sure the purpose, was that supposed to convince that an e collar can be used in place of a clicker :-D an advert by people who are clumsy in their training and clearly want to promote the collar, using a dog that has already learnt an exercise and have set the clip up to 'show' that the dog doesn't find it unpleasant, yes I'm compleltey converted :-D 

I agree Fred Hesen isn't the ebst trainer but the dogs are no more stressed than many positivly trained dogs.

Comments like these are futile and a little silly, to be honest. Attacking reward based training hardly negates the pain and stress caused to the rottie.

I will never forget what I saw, and it was one of the videos that made me realise just how sick shock collar training is, and how easily owners can be fooled into thinking their dog is a baby for yelping and that their dog is happy when it is being trained. The face of the trainer when he was doing it was horrible too, interestingly enough. I did wonder if he actually enjoyed doing it and hurting the dog.

Lindsay

Re forced retrieve, its just a term, you can't make a dog do anything it doesn't want to with its mouth (especially a rottie).

It's hardly just a term! Adam, a forced retrieve is very unpleasant and relies on the use of pain to teach a dog to hold. Ear pinches and toe pinches or whatever floats the trainer's boat. Special tables set up to fix string, rope or thread to the dog's toes, so that they can be painfully pulled or squeezed. Approaching the table must be like approaching a place of torture. No notice is taken of appeasement so the dog cannot communicate, how terrifying must that be????

The dog avoids the pain by holding the dummy or whatever.
Pos. punishment and neg. reinforcement, as usual.
Not sure if Karenclynes has given a link to the toe drawing/pulling table but that is appalling. There is no compassion, just force. Some places such as gundog kennels in the US admit and are proud to say they use force.

Appalling, just appalling.

And yes, you can certainly force a rottie to do it. It does it to avoid pain.

Lindsay

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> These are ajust a couple of clips, not easy viewing and certainly (and sickeningly) not the worst I have seen. 

Absolutely disgusting videos.The rottweiller not only looks stressed and confused but no progress seems to have been made by the end of the video,its hard to see what the dog has actually learnt.And those poor sweet-natured,biddable labradors being so horribly abused. I can't work out why they are being  force-retrieved when retrieving is something that they are bred for and should come naturally to them.

I couldn't watch the whole of even the first video. I've followed this thread with some frustration--implacably opposed positions on the use of e collars, with replies getting more and more personal flying back and forth. helenmd, thank you for the links to the videos to put this in perspective. Having seen this video now I can't see how any responsible human being could ever advocate their use. That rottie was fearful and crying. Shame on the owner for putting the poor dog through this, but no forgiveness for the trainer that uses this method. It's nothing short of cruel abuse and I look forward to the law making their use illegal here.

Jay15, it was karenclynes that originally put the links to those videos as she says there's actually worse about-like the toe pinching ones.There's no skill involved in this so-called training,just brute force.Can't believe that in this day and age with all the information about about how dogs learn people still train like that.

> there's actually worse about-like the toe pinching ones

I've never heard of this before or the ear pinching going on on one of the clips.  How on earth can you do the normal grooming activities like ear cleaning and nail cutting if dogs are trained to fear these areas being touched? How does this make them a better family pet?

I would be devastated if I did a training session with one of my dogs and they looked at me in fear instead of love. My dogs don't stress about following a command, most of the time they do as I say.  They're not perfect, neither am I, but we trust and respect each other.  Isn't that what an honest relationship is about?

>I've never heard of this before or the ear pinching going on on one of the clips.

I can't watch stuff like this  - even the description is enough to make me feel upset

>I would be devastated if I did a training session with one of my dogs and they looked at me in fear instead of love.

DITTO - I cannot imagine why anyone would want to own a dog and then hurt it, on purpose.  The things people do under the guise of 'training' astound me...

> I cannot imagine why anyone would want to own a dog and then hurt it, on purpose.  The things people do under the guise of 'training' astound me...

It is truly sickening isn't it :( :(

I watched a few moments of each of the videos, I have no sound at the moment, but the dogs body language is blatantly clear - they are not happy dogs :( :(

The good thing about YouTube is the fact that related videos are displayed down the side of the screen & I noticed this one. I have no sound, so can only go by what I saw - the difference is amazing, this video has an eager, happy pup wanting to lean more and happyily doing so, not being forced into anything with pain, fear & confusion.  The method to go with seems such an easy choice to me..............