When is the best age to stop breeding from your bitch? My bitch is due to be mated in the next week, she is 5 on Halloween :-)

How many litters has she had, and when was her last one? Three litters is usually plenty for a bitch.

db,

You mentioned in another post that the bitch isn't KC reg. Can I ask has she had all health tests? Also what is the reason for having another litter?

If this is the unregistered bitch she should not even have had one litter. Breeding is done to either improve a breed, which obviously you need KC registered animals to do, with good show results or working results, all relevant health tests etc (which for Springers would be eye testing, hip scoring and DNA testing) -otherwise you will have done nothing for the breed at all in allowing puppies to be born. The only time I can see a reason for breeding from unregistered dogs (provided health tests are still done) would be if they were outstanding working dogs and were needed by for instance police.

As they are ESS it is possible they are working dogs and health tests aside I think people will breed for what they want in the dog they need and being registered would not be of interest to someone breeding a bitch to acquire working stock.

Thank you NOVA for your NICE reply.
I guess all the others are professional breeders and all their puppies are KC reg.  Well a friend of my daughters bought a KC reg ESS yesterday and he has a hernia, obviously no helath check there!!!!!
It will probably be my last litter.  And to all you others who were nasty and rude to me, I love my dogs, all 3 of them.  I have bred them for pleasure, not to show them off at Crufts!!! And they have ALL gone to good loving homes......

i use to breed ESS she was from working lines and her pedigree was outstanding, full of champs , she was kc and we used the same stud dog for her 3 litters, we worked her and sire was a working dog both very good at what they did ,thats why we breed her we always had a full waiting list with maybe 1 or 2 to sell after born has she always had very big litters ,for me 3 is enough.

The Kennel Club as a blanket rule will not register puppies from a bitch that was 8 years old or over at the pups birth. 

Very occasionally they will allow a litter older with supporting veterinary evidence and good reasons, but not often, even a Group winning bitch at Crufts was not allowed a litter over 8, as I assume they considered there were enough of her progeny to carry on the line with.

They will also not register puppies from a bitch that was less than one year old at mating.

Breed clubs will have more specific rules as to what is appropriate for their own breed.

With my own medium size breed the rules are that a bitch should be over two years old at whelping, and should have her first by 5 years old.  Obvioulsy Hip scored, eye scheme tested, DNA tested for prcd-PRA, and Kidney fucntion tested to monitoir for FRD.

No more than 4 litters maximum, but most people will not breed more than two or three litters from a bitch depending on how many pups she had, and the qualit6y of pupies produced.

Well perhaps not so nice I had assumed you were breeding working stock, I am not sure why your only stated reason is because you like to, if this is the case then you should be proving your breeding stock either in the show ring or as workers or may be as both.

A hernia can happen to any pup there is no health check for the condition, however the buyer and the breeder should look out for it as in general stock with a hernia should not be used for breeding. If this hernia is small and soft then it may well disappear only a few need to be repaired, it is the more serious and sometimes not obvious health problems that need testing for as without these tests you have no idea what your are buying and what the future may hold. So yes, a registered pup is best because you can then check the health history.

>a friend of my daughters bought a KC reg ESS yesterday and he has a hernia, obviously no helath check there!!!!!

There's absolutely no connection between the health tests done on the parents to the appearance of a hernia on a puppy.

> I guess all the others are professional breeders and all their puppies are KC reg. 

Depends what you mean by professional.  If you mean for a living, then no good breeder will make a living (or even attempt to). 

If you mean approach breeding in a proffesional manner, with the utmost care for the breed, ones own dogs, and the potential owners, using the available knowledge available through Veterinarly science, breed clubs and mentors, having the highest standards then yes.

Breeding properly and ethically means breeding for a purpose, to enhance and continue the breed and keep it's gene pool healthy, to produce typical dogs to an accepted breed standard for show, work and of course primarily companionship for ourselves and to share with others.

Sadly not all those that use the Kennel clubs registration services are anything like that.

None of us condone poor breeding practises (very prevalent in the UK) that are driven primarily by commerce, and certainly not in favour of casual one of litters or unregistered stock (because their ancestry and more importantly their health status cannot be ascertained) in except the very rare case where there is some valid reason for doing so, other than simply producing puppies. 

Such breeders rarely are looking into the breeds long term welfare, and are rarely prepared to take the lifelong responsibility for the puppies they produce (primarily be willing to take back those in need of re-homing at any age). 

Unless someone can make such a commitment to breeding properly they should not be doing so. 

If only the most committed people who bred for the love of their breeds did so there would be a lot fewer puppies bred and the rescue centres would be pretty much empty (as is the general experience in Scandinavian countries, where casual breeding is rarely done).

If this is the unregistered bitch she should not even have had one litter

what about breeds that aren't recognised then?

>what about breeds that aren't recognised then?

Not sure what you mean, breeds may be recognised by say the FIC but not registered by the UK KC - is that what you are saying, if so one assumes the dogs would be recognised and registered with their countries recognised and affiliated kennel association. And if so would be recognised as breeds but not necessarily registered by the KC.

I have bred them for pleasure, not to show them off at Crufts!!!

I'm sorry, but I find this mystifying 

For me breeding is anything BUT a pleasure.  It's fraught with worry that something will happen to my bitch or the pups - there are so many things that can and do go wrong.  Having had an experience in my family where the bitch almost died and lost the only pup, despite all health checks done, breeding being meticulously planned and the breed known for easy self-whelping, this is something I can never relax about.

I will admit there are moments of pleasure, when the pups are up and running about, when the bitch is clearly doing well, but that worry never quite goes away.

I breed to continue a line of healthy dogs as we have a fairly small gene pool, which could very easily become too small to survive.  Any showing is done for pleasure and to ensure that my dogs meet the breed standard ;)

I have bred them for pleasure, not to show them off at Crufts!!!

Shame. Great shame. Breeding for "pleasure" is not a good enough reason to breed. It's due to all the people breeding for similar flimsy reasons that there are so many problems with dogs.

This is interesting, as i was going to make a post about breeding without good reason due to the actions of a friend. Maybe i still will, as its something i would like an opinion on.
I have only ever bred one litter, six years ago. This was done with the advice and guidance of my bitches breeder, who is a good friend and well established gundog breeder/trainer. It is not something i would ever do again, and cannot see how you can say you have bred from your bitch for 'pleasure'. The mind boggles.
I have always believed that breeding is done to improve or build on positives from good examples of whatever breed.
It is also my belief that only dogs that have proven themselves in either the showring, working field or other forms of competition such as agility or herding should be bred from.
Otherwise what is the point?
Just because your bitches pups go to 'loving homes' is not a justifiable reason for you wanting or continuing to breed from your bitch. I have owned ESS for over twenty years and there are far too many poorly bred examples of this breed being churned out by people such as yourself. Many of these 'loving homes' find that the cute puppy becomes far too much to cope with at around a year old, and ends up in rescue. I am speaking from experience. The ESS rescues are one of the busiest breed rescues in the country, and at the end of the day its the dogs that suffer. Not the people who 'breed' them.

My advice is get your bitch spayed and enjoy her as a pet.

I'm sorry, but I find this mystifying 

For me breeding is anything BUT a pleasure.  It's fraught with worry that something will happen to my bitch or the pups - there are so many things that can and do go wrong.  Having had an experience in my family where the bitch almost died and lost the only pup, despite all health checks done, breeding being meticulously planned and the breed known for easy self-whelping, this is something I can never relax about.

I will admit there are moments of pleasure, when the pups are up and running about, when the bitch is clearly doing well, but that worry never quite goes away.

As someone with 30 years in their chosen breed, I have to agree.  Having had two disastrous litters from a CC winning bitch (lost 4 of 6 puppies in the first and ALL of the 5 in the second) I now approach each whelping with great trepidation.  How anyone can do it for 'pleasure' is beyond me.

I lose a stone in weight with every litter, through sheer worry and stress. It's never a pleasure.

I do get great pleasure from my litters but it is tempered with great anxiety, sleepless nights and very often guilt if something goes wrong.

If it were all worry I wouldn't do it because the bad times are surely awful...... but when it goes well and I feel that I'm helping the breed or a new owner its simply great.

what i mean by not recognised are breeds like the patterdale terrier, the plummer terrier, the lucas terrier just off the top of my head, these are recognised by lots of people as a breed but not the kennel club

hayley123 this was what I meant when I said:
The only time I can see a reason for breeding from unregistered dogs (provided health tests are still done) would be if they were outstanding working dogs and were needed by for instance police.
i.e. dog needed for a genuine working reason (can be for any purpose, police was just one example) is a different kettle of fish. Breeding them for PETS only I would not agree with, but the majority of course are bred for a real working reason.

Just thought I'd add re: the DNA testing - fucosidosis (but no need if both sire and dam are tested clear I believe).

ETA, sorry, so as not to confuse people, was in response to Marianne's post on health tests for ESS. Elbows are also being done more commonly in many breeds. I knew someone with a lab x springer who had dreadful elbow dysplasia (obviously that is a cross, not a breed, and elbows are recommended to be done in labs, but...)

what i mean by not recognised are breeds like the patterdale terrier, the plummer terrier, the lucas terrier - I am familiar with the Patterdale but what are the other two?

They are terriers that have been bred to do a particular job in a particular area. Many are developed by crossing two other terriers and do to some extent resemble one another unlike the Jack Russell that seems to have strayed far from being a breed and has become a JR type, the result of crossing will only ever become recognised if they are breeding true to type and have been for many years, they must also have a viable number of quality animals.

The Parson Russell Terries is one of these specially developed types of terrier but they are now recognised. Most of these specialist terriers are purely developed to be working animals and there would be little point in registration or in recognition as the whole idea is you should produce a pup to suit your particular needs, in general they are not expected to be pet animals and most are not suitable to be sold as such.

Going off track slightly but on breeding from the dog.  At my ring craft there is a breeder of black lads.  They all have a health problem (I was privy to this by one of the mentors)  They are breeding the labs with limb issues.  All have dysplaisia yet the ring craft are not allowed to say anything or report it to the kennel club.  i think this should highlighted more when we know if dogs like this, they also show the dogs in this state.

I believe the kennel club should be informed of this practice and order a vet check to prevent further spread of bad health issues.

Not sure why it has to be kept quiet, you can write to the KC, the breed clubs but ask the breeder themselves first.

Before you do anything I would speak to the people concerned, they must be testing to know there is a problem, they may be taking veterinary advice. Since nearly all dogs, and people, have less than perfect hips it is impossible not to breed from dogs with at least some dysplasia. Unless these people are telling you what the dogs scores are you will not know if they are using dogs they should not you are just listening to here say. So ask and if you still think that they are behaving in a discreditable way then for goodness sake report it just be sure of the facts first.

EDIT: Have looked at the mean score for the Lab and it is 15 so ideally one would not use any dog or bitch that is above this score but one can not throw the baby out with the bath water and other matters have to be taken into account - if all there breeding stock is above 30 I would be worried but if below there may be a good reason for using a dog at or slightly above the BMS

No breeder looking to produce pups for the show ring will want to produce a un-sound animal, judges are not stupid, well most are not and they will not place an un-sound dog. HD does not always cause a dog to be un-sound but if you are saying that it is well known that these Labs are suffering dysplasia then I would think that they are - else how would you know.

Unless these people are telling you what the dogs scores are you will not know if they are using dogs they should not you are just listening to here say

These days I would always suggest potential puppy buyers get the parents' registered names for any pups they are interested in so they can check up hip scores on the KC website.

Agree MaianneB, that is the way to go, I have no idea what it has to do with those who run the ringcraft but if they think that things are happening that are discreditable then it should be reported to the breed clubs and to the Kennel Club I am just surprised as to how they would know unless they have nothing better to do than research the practices and behaviour of their ringcraft members.

You can see the dogs elbows out and they walk with a limp, it is only a pup and its mother was the same.  I doubt they do any testing at all, you'd have to see them to understand (and aspersions cast).  All their dogs are aggessive even the labs.  Yet they still show and at go to ring craft.  i have stopped going as twice my girls, maybe more, have had narrow escapes with these animals.  one occasion i was doing the mat walk, it lunged at us taking the young girl in tow and i winder why my girls stopped performing.

i think if you are an experienced judge you can pick up bad conformation, so should be able to do something with it.

Do you mean the pup is loose at the elbow when it walks, in other words the elbows are not tucked in? Is the dam still loose at the elbow or has it improved with age? Is the dam lame? I am sure anyone not just the judge would notice if the dam is lame and I doubt it would be placed but there is nothing to stop it being shown if the owner wishes. You say all the dogs are lame in an earlier post is that only when pups?

Sorry I am sure I am being dense but I am at a loss to know what it is the ring craft people should be reporting if they were allowed.

It's probably best to start a new thread on the Health board to discuss a particular health problem - this is going a long way off topic from the original question about when a bitch should have a last litter.

That is true Jane, I am just trying to answer if it should be reported but I can't work out what it is. It is relevant to the subject of BYB and KC breeders and the age of breeding but I can't understand what is being asked, sorry for being so stupid.

plummer terrier are quite similar to russells but they should only be red and white with red saddle they were created using different terrier breeds, beagles, fighting bull terrier breeds, the lucas is a scruffy little terrier

The Lucas originated with a cross between Sealyham and Norfolk terriers in the 1930s. There is an active breed club, they encourage health testing and are VERY particular where puppies are sold.

The so-called 'Sporting Lucas' is a bit of a different matter.

> I have bred them for pleasure, not to show them off at Crufts!!! And they have ALL gone to good loving homes......

Grow up db, your anti Crufts, KC reg dogs blah blah blah is getting really annoying, do you honestly think that ALL KC registered dogs weren't loved or that ALL dogs that attend Crufts aren't healthy?
Can't you understand that most members on this site have KC reg dogs that they either own or have bred who have been to crufts & they are all loved, were bred with care & raised with the highest standard's around! And yes there are memebers of this site that do not own a KC registered dog or do not even own a dog at all but they understand that we all love & look after our dogs regardless of being KC reg or a red rossette winner!

I have generally found that those who breed irresponsibly don't like to have this pointed out to them and get defencive. 

They then seek to justify their unjustifiable lack of responsibility by slating those who do, saying 'Oh I'm not really a breeder' (doh your bitch has puppies, ergo your a breeder) or pointing out that there are bad apples among those who use the KC services, rather than accepting (except in certain circumstances) those not using the KC for KC recognised breeds are simply breeding with no thought to the breeds, individual dogs or new owners welfare.

Strange though, they are allowed to breed potentially unhealthy untypical puppies (no health screening or attention to breed standard etc) yet if they buy a puppy they expect perfection from that breeder themselves?

There are lots of people breeding dogs in UK that aren't KC reg - and are breeding responsibly and reputably... yes there are the terriers, Lakes terriers, Patterdales etc, also Welsh Sheepdogs with their own registry (have to be Working sheepdogs on KC working registry for some bizarre reason), some Kelpies are working lines only and not on Australian KC never mind UK one.  There are huge numbers of border collies not on the KC register - but most on the ISDS and can be registered (I have a dual reg collie whose father is dual reg but whose mother is ISDS only).

Many KC breeders are poor, many non KC breeders are fantastic, and no one should be critical of those who breed and don't register for the right reasons (because they can't or because like many ISDS people they don't believe in KC registration and certainly don't like what KC registration has done to border collies. 

Not sure about the working line beardies, whether or not they are KC, possibly not.  I know which I would choose...working one rather than show one, have you seen what showing has done to the breed?

I know that this site is for KC dogs, but we shouldn't be critical of good breeders who aren't KC reg.

My own collies are either KC or dual registered, although I have one on the working register - lots of collies are and this is basically because not everyone agreed with KC recognition.  Now if you have a 'working sheep dog' you could still get them KC reg, but you'd have to know their pedigree AND you'd have to get them ISDS registered on merit.  Most people don't find it worth it, but they're still very good dogs, just not KC reg.  I guess each breed is different.

Can i just ask then if your dogs aren't shown, worked or put through another way of assessing them then how do you know that you have a good specimen of the breed, even with health tests done? Surely its all about improving what we have already and the only way we would know we had something good was if we are told so by breeders, judges etc and also prove it by results on all accounts.

As an example, you have a breed which is just a pet, which is fine, but you want a litter, you do the health tests and all is well, you find a dog, is it a good example?? who knows but it also has the health tests... what is the reason for the litter? What are you achieving from this litter?

By the way the above is a post added on at the end and not in reply to anyone.

I know that this site is for KC dogs, but we shouldn't be critical of good breeders who aren't KC reg.


If you read the whole thread, you will see that what we're being critical of is people breeding unregistered puppies for no reason other than that "it's fun".

> the only way we would know we had something good was if we are told so by breeders, judges etc and also prove it by results on all accounts.
>

You'd think wouldn't you.  Judging as most know, depends on who you know and how long you've been doing.  i never go on a dog being a chamo unless i know it.  I know of dogs getting a 1st, BoB ect with terrible faults and very good dogs being rejected.  it also depends on what the judge likes as well of course (before anyone jumps lol) such as leg colour, in my breed, or size.

As i said before, all the papers don't mean anything if a breeder is a bad breeder.  its up to us to do our homework and be better than them.

Could i ask what is the ISDS, have never heard of this.

A reply to the original poster, personally (KC or otherwise) I would consider 5 a little old to have a last litter, unless there is a really good reason, 2 litters is genrally max for me with the bitch being 4 for the last litter.

Our breed has a relativly short life span 8- 10 years so at 5 she would be getting on a bit and the risks become much higher.

>I would consider 5 a little old to have a last litter, unless there is a really good reason, 2 litters is genrally max for me with the bitch being 4 for the last litter.

It depends on the breed; I wouldn't want to have a first litter till the bitch was 2½ or 3, before having a second litter 2 or 3 seasons later when those pups have reached adulthood for assessment. So 5 would be fine for a second litter with maybe a third litter at 7 years.

My breed has a life-span of 12 - 15 years, so 5 years old is still very much in early adulthood.

"Judging as most know, depends on who you know and how long you've been doing." quote from Sunshine

Well how do you explain my making up a bitch from my first ever litter? I hadn't bought a bitch from a well known breeder either!

>Well how do you explain my making up a bitch from my first ever litter?

Bcause you had a good bitch. :-) The old excuse of 'depends who you know' tends usually to be used by those whose dogs are beaten (by better ones). There are exceptions, of course, human nature being what it is, but on the whole the winning dogs are the better ones or are better handled to show off their strengths.

Yes, JG, she certainly was a lovely bitch :)

Lol, new someone would have some luck, either have to stick their oar in or make up an excuse.  i do very well with my bitch when the judge is unbiased.  When a dog which very bad white of eyes, very bad in my breed, gets a champ and jw, you just know its who they are.  Yes human nature is a crock at time.  Glad not all judges are like that.  Anyone who denies they have experienced it are either lying or oblivios to it.  is till go as i like it and yes i carry good breeding so one day will work out.

no mine aren't from a well known breeder either, they ddo well on they're own merrit.  Well done on your wins btw.

I have sold a dog to novices who made it up to champion,a and they did the same with one they bought from another breeder, why because they were good dogs.

I consider myself after only 17 years in the breed as a relative newcomer as a breeder and have made up 3 bitches myself, and sold two to a longer established breeder in Ireland and both have done well getting their Irish titles and CC's and RCC.

Think sometimes people find a fault on a dog and then think something is "fixed" because the dog with the fault, clear for all to see, is winning, they forget that a judge will judge the whole dog, look to see how well it fits the standard - if a dog only has one thing that is not as good as it should be then that is probably a very good dog. Trouble with judging from the ringside you miss out on that vital sense that of touch.

> When a dog which very bad white of eyes, very bad in my breed, gets a champ and jw, you just know its who they are

There is no such thing as a perfect dog, you could find fault with EVERY dog in the world, and those who don;t do well themselves or are poor losers usually do ;-)  I'm another that made up my first show dog, won a champ show group as a nobody.

Unless one has been lucky enough to have a top drawer example as their first dog one will inevitably do middling well, but as a newcomer perhaps have rose tinted specs about our protégé.

Looking back I can see that with my first exhibits I had the results generally that I deserved, they were worthy typical examples, but not outstanding. 

My second home-bred generation finally produced more of what was wanted, but the bitch I kept fell a little short on substance and coat. 

We did well, with a RCC and almost winning out of Limit with about half a dozen shows a year and 3 litters taking her out of the ring for about 9 months at a time.

In fact I sold my first champion and had her back at 8 months, I knew she was something special, but I wanted to space my dogs ages out more, but I didn't look a gift horse in the mouth when she came back :)

It is only from this point that I would say I knew what I was doing re improving on what I had and puppy selection