We are at our wits' end knowing how to handle this problem.  We moved to Suffolk nearly 3 months ago and are renovating a shabby house and having a lot of work done in the large garden.  We have 4 dogs one of which is a JR, a dog we rescued about 6 years ago. called Pip.  He has always been hyper and quite naughty and is an inveterate escaper - to him it is a game.

However the escaping was never a real issue until last week when he burrowed under our (new) fence and sped across the field and found some chickens in a coup.  He got inside and was caught as a neighbour said "with his mouth full of feathers".  Said neighbour called the police which I thought was a bit hard. Fortunately Pip didn't harm any of the chickens but since then he is obsessed and has escaped umpteen more times although we have caught him before he gains entry to the chickens.  If it wasn't those chickens there would others as this area is rural and lots of people keep them.  We have bought a tether to tether him in the garden but I am not convinced that he won't wriggle out of it somehow (he is a real Houdini).  He managed to burrow under the fence still with his tether on - although now we have moved it away so he can't reach the fence.

Having to keep him indoors a lot is making him miserable and more determined than ever to get out.  Up until the incident last week he used to potter around the garden quite happily but now he is mad to get out and at the poor chickens.  We have heard about an electric fence that you use with a special collar which if he gets near the fence gives  him some sort of electric shock - I am told it works.  I don't like the idea at all but something has to be done. 

I am sure other country dwellers  must have come across this problem and would like some advice.  As a newcover to this village I really don't want to be falling out with people over this - I do regard myself as a  very responsible dog owner.  It is making my life a misery as life is hard enough at the moment with workmen in and out and four dogs to look after!.  Needless to say it is hard ensuring that the builders understand that no doors must be left open  - it is inevitable that they do forget sometimes and the dog is just waiting his chance .....

Glad of any suggestions folks.

Harriette

Hi Snowflake,

Poor you, I have a freind who has terriers and gundogs as well as chickens she keeps in a big pen and on the odd occasion has had one of the terriers managed to get itself somehow inside and catch a hen. Other than her re-inforcing the coup its a problem for her I know.. . Have you considered buying an all in one kennel with a run or one of those big pens you can buy with a roof? we got a fantastic enclosed kennel with a run from http://www.ducheyfarmkennels.co.uk 'The Chalet sytle range' they are a great company good prices and they come and erect the whole thing for you, all you need to do is put a concrete base down for them to put it on. At least this way he would be confined at times you arent able to supervise him?  

Sorry try this link http://www.ducheyfarmkennels.com

This won't be much help to you, but I do understand what you are going through. I have a patterdale 7 month old AND free range chickens, a few have bald patches, but we have managed to avoid chicken death. We have had to make a very secure but quite large area where pup can go at all times and she is only allowed in the fields on a long lead where she is introduced to the chickens under controlled circumstances. She is gradually getting used to them and when she sits and relaxes with chickens around it is click and treat time. It's a long process and I am sure she would still chase off lead, but a lot of the the rigid shaking in desperation to get at those pesky chickens has turned into 'what is it' and then boredom sets in and at that stage it's treat and off on a nice walk.
Have you thought about getting your own chickens and trying to de-sensitise your JR. I know that each morning I take my Pat into the chicken run to let them out after being shut in overnight (foxes) and she is so used to doing this that she can get to within 4 ft of the birds with no reaction at all (on a loose lead though ) so as I said it will take a long time, but we are getting there.
BTW the secure area has a strong layer of chicken wire fencing that we buried 18 inches into the ground to stop her digging underneath.

You could build a small run for him, using concrete slabs for the flooring, and putting the wire right down into the ground. So long as it is high enough that he can't jump out ;-) Perhaps puppy panels for a large breed dog might just be high enough to keep him in? Or does he climb?

How about wiring going down into the ground? My friend's Cavaliers used to dig out under her fence, and she had to bury fencing going down a fair way into the ground to stop them. Not cheap though!!

Hi snowflake, some good advice here. One of my gundogs in particular became obsessed by hens--he hasn't killed any but none of them actually enjoy being retrieved. The trouble is that hens being what they are even the calmest of dogs to be driven to killing. My solution was to spend £1500 building a big run for the hens, with a fence that is buried 2' deep in a L shape, backfilled with stone, so nobody is going to get under. However, my oldest dog knows that he can flush the hens by running alongside the fence and they have yet to learn that it's safe inside the pen, but not when they fly out :(

I won't use an outdoor kennel for the dogs because I am afraid they'd be stolen, even where we live. They are either in the house, on a lead outside or taken to a place where they can run free, which in this sheep infested rural area isn't easy either.

Having paid an unfeasibly large vet for an irate hen owner (whose birds were free ranging in an insecurely fenced field--none were killed, but they were retrieved as usual...sigh...), I am now extremely careful about letting him run free for most of the year. I work on his recall every day, and  he is definitely far more reliable, but he isn't totally hen proof, and I doubt it would be any easier with a JRT.

You could have a look at David Ryan's website http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-i-stop-my-dog-chasing/ and decide whether you want to buy his book or invest in some training (I got as far as affording the book, which I thought was very good).

Or you could redirect Pip's energy to flyball, which could be great for him--lots of dogs with high prey drive make very good flyballers. Good luck whatever you decide, just remember you are not alone!

Hi Moomins, the website address is http://www.duchyfarmkennels.co.uk (no e in duchy)

Thanks..had been up most of the night puppy sitting, please put my  sleep depravation down to my mispelling Lol!

No worries Moomins...I wanted to check the site myself and was worried when I couldn't find it. Hope your puppies let you get get some rest :-)

This will cause chaos but here goes.

You need to use an aversive to teach him to ignore chickens. I've done this with lots of dogs from malamutes killing sheep to terriers killing chickens. The aversive is anything the dog dislikes that is controllable by you.
My preference is to walk the dog around the chickens at a large distance, whenever he looks at them apply the aversive and move him away from the chickens, when he stops the look you stop applying the aversive. It needs repitition and consitency but you should have the dog ignoring chickens totally with in a few sessions of good work. You start on the lead but once the dog responds to the aversive by moving/looking away from the prey item you dispense with it.
Within a few sessions you can walk the dog through the chickens and he will totally ignore them, even off lead.

Adam

One of mine loves chickens. My sister keeps them and she decided that she wanted them very much free range. One day these chickens had decided to come right down to our house, one of mine took off and took a few of her chickens out as he wasn't on lead and i didn't know they were there until it all started happening. She lost a few and has since decided that free range in her own garden is sufficient for now..

Adam when you say aversive i do hope you mean something along the lines of pet corrector? The problem i foresee with this is that on a lead your teaching your dog no, but if this dog escapes again and is alone, off lead i can see its instincts taking over again?

she can get to within 4 ft of the birds with no reaction at all (on a loose lead though ) so as I said it will take a long time, but we are getting there.

Sorry Adam, but I prefer my way to train my terrier although without doubt it will take a lot longer than your way, but when her little face looks up at me with such love when I treat her for ignoring the chickens I cannot imagine the hurt on her face if I had just given her pain instead of treat. And when I say 'there's a good girl' she wags her body in two as she is so pleased with herself, this would be impossible to see with your way, so you must miss a lot of the joy of teaching a dog and seeing it improve day to day and that dog knowing it is pleasing 'mum'.
I will not have a go at you because you are entitled to have your views, but your way is not my way and never will be.

Hi all
It is all very well trying to train your dog using treats etc., but this does not always work. I had a rescue dog that was intent on killing the cat. The cat went and lived in the barn and every day for 6 months I took the dog round and praised her for not trying to get the cat. This was a well trained dog and she would sit down and 'watch me'. However she was just biding her time and one day the cat stepped round a corner --dog on lead-- and she snatched it and would not let go till it was dead.
I used a different AVERSIVE method to stop her wanting to kill the sheep  and 3 years later she is totally fine round the stock and treats the lambs as her friends.
I think there is a place for all sorts of training methods. However for this problem the dog needs to be shut in a secure compound and controlled on lead. I too have had hens killed by dogs whose owners allow them to do as they please and yes it was costly for the owner.  8 pedigree hens at £10 each. The hens were free range on our land but the dog got through the wire. For your own peace of mind you will have to make your premises secure-- you cannot keep your eye on the dog all the time .
Louise

Hi Snowflake!

Before you moved to Suffolk, was Pip allowed out of the house/garden without you?   I'll bet he wasn't!

The trouble now is that he "thinks" he has all this freedom - to do just what JRs want to do!

At 6, it wil take some time before he learns NOT to even give a chicken the eye - and whilst you are having work done on the house and garden, it is difficult to "train" people working on your property to close doors/gates behind them every time.

I would strongly advocate a kennel and run in the garden for him whilst the work is being done.   You can then work on training him at your own pace - which will lessen the stress on you and therefore on him.   We did this when we had dogs that whilst as good as gold when we were with them, would want to do their own thing if we weren't - and with 4 children under ten plus tradesmen in and out, keeping dogs confined was difficult - until we built the kennel & pen - they were put in there after morning walks, and welcomed back into the house in the afternoon/evening.

Whilst not wanting to disparage the advice you have been given here - I would advise taking Adam's with a large dose of salt!

> Adam when you say aversive i do hope you mean something along the lines of pet corrector?

No I'm afraid Adam's idea of aversive is an electric shock collar. It would seem to be his answer for everything.

> electric shock collar. It would seem to be his answer for everything

I know, was just waiting and hoping he may come up with another idea. As they say one way of training doesn't suit every dog, so not sure why he thinks that a shock collar would work with all these dogs with problems on here???

I have strong urge to obtain an electric shock collar ... and put it on Adam - and press the button every time he mentions the blasted things!

> I have strong urge to obtain an electric shock collar ... and put it on Adam - and press the button every time he mentions the blasted things!

Yes please!!

It is all very well trying to train your dog using treats etc., but this does not always work.
Hi Louise,
I agree there may be a time when this may not work with a dog but I have trained 3 mad boxers a gsd and a cocker to walk freely among my chickens, they lay around in the sunshine with chickens actually walking across them without batting an eyelid, and all done with love and treats and no aversive training in sight and I am sure I will make it work with my terrier with patience and time. I am not in a hurry, I prefer to enjoy my dog and her training.

It's very important to remember that many dogs are hard wired to chase things. The dog usually has a target, and a real chaser will try to get out to find its target.

Now, with work, the target can be changed (see David Ryan's site, as previously mentioned, http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-i-stop-my-dog-chasing/ ).
I should add that this person was a police dog training instructor (not just a trainer) for many years and has handled many different types of dogs. He also helps people with dogs with this problem, so he does know what he is talking about. He himself does not use shock collars, because hehas found that with many dogs and situations, it can make the problem worse.

However, his advice does take work and is not a quick fix. He helps the owner alter the target of the chase.
Ultimately if your JRT loves to chase, he will need something to chase, and not just be stopped - this is actually a welfare issue, which is explained on DogSecrets site :)

If it's hard to give the dog individual time, I'd be honest here and say to rehome him, because he clearly needs lots of attention and is not happy to just lie around, he needs to be doing something and his hard wiring is telling him to chase. Whatever, he will need a new chase target to be completely happy :)

Best wishes,
Lindsay
x

For terriers I've mostly used sound aversion (discs, pet corrector, spray collar facing downwards) as they are sensitive to that. An e collar is just another aversive and for may dogs is less aversive than a sound aversive. This is easy to see by the reaction. The dog gets a stim from an e collar and looks at the ground, he gets a noise from a sound aversion and jumps looking startled. I prefer the softer approach and favour the e collar.

Treats are unlikely to work when the dog is away from you, and in full prey drive.

The last client I had with this problem had a patterdale terrier who'd killed lots of chickens. I did the aversive thing it worked and the dog can now be left loose and not supervised without a problem.

The dog does need a chase outlet but will be less commited to a toy if he still believes chickens are a problem, on the rehomong front. I suppose you could but 1000s of perfectly nice dogs (who don't chase chickens) are pts ever year because there isn't the homes available for them.

Adam  

Adam,

What will you do if, like Wales, the rest of the UK follows and bans electric shock collars? I guess you will continue to depend on sound aversion?

I don't mean this as an attack on you personally as I like to assume the best of people :) However, I see your training methods as a sign of a poor dog trainer and one who depends on instilling fear as opposed to developing a working relationship with dogs.

Treats are unlikely to work when the dog is away from you, and in full prey drive.

As a shepherd, I need my dogs to work with me...not fear me. Have I had a dog single out one sheep when working away from me? Heck yes! Do I use treats? No! Do I use aversion tools to control my dogs when they work away from me. No! If my dog singles a sheep for a chase, it's MY fault and not the dogs. I have asked them to do too much to soon. It's back to circular penned sheep and the dog working outside of the pen again...allowing the dog to develop confidence and allow me to lay on natural commands to natural behaviour.

I really find it saddening that, in this day and age of increased understanding of animal behaviour, some still see it necessary to inflict discomfort to achieve results. It is never a necessary action.

Thanks for all  your comments.  However,  despite new temporary fencing in the garden and some doors in the house being un-openable due to large objects being shoved against them - so nobody can inadvertently just open them - Pip has got out several times more.  Yesterday we thought one of the chickens was killed but am now told it appears to be recovering.

The embarrassing thing is that these chickens are owned by a local landowner.  She owns the field at the end of our garden and kindly gave us permission to use her field as access to our large garden for the works we needed doing.  We have had a tennis court dug up,  horrid conifers removed and the whole fenced - all this has cost thousands - you can imagine.  The landowner is a lovely lady who has been very understanding but is now getting less so, unsurprisingly.

I can't see Pip changing to be honest.  He is a very hyper little dog who gets fixated about things.  We have done lots of training with him over the years but I am afraid that is all out of the window now he has "tasted" chickens.  Funnily enough we have two cats and he is fine with them but will always chase other cats!

We have sadly come to the conclusion that the only way forward is to begin the process of trying to rehome Pip which I don't suppose will be easy and when we embarked upon this move to Suffolk was something I never thought I would have to contemplate.  He is a cute chap though, full of character like most JRs, good with children and other dogs.  Good off lead in normal circumstances with a good recall!!! Back in Berkshire we were never near chickens and his stamping ground was a local moor - those were the days!

I thought I might talk to my (new) vet this week to see if she can offer any advice.  On the rehoming front I would maybe use the dogs forum website and try to rehome him from home.  I don't want him in kennels.  In the meantime he will be confined to the temporarily fenced off area of our garden when let  out - but ony if someone is there to supervise him as I do not trust him one inch, but I know it is only a question of time before he gets out.  I certainly don't want to fall out with our new neighbours either.

The situation is very worrying and depressing.

Snowflake

PS My other three dogs - a sheltie,  hound cross (rescued from Crete) and westie are all fine thank God and not interested in chickens .....

Maybe you are tired and depressed with all that is going on, but please don't rush into doing something you may regret once the dust settles, especially if you really love the little boy. Are you sure there are not a few doors still left to open, how about a local good trainer that can come and work with him on your land, I am sure there are people on this forum that can suggest a few quality trainers in your area.
Please think of alternatives before rehoming and then realising you made the wrong decision. For me rehoming would be the absolute last measure.
Can the knowledgeable people on this forum advise if there are 'good' places where you can send your dog for training

Good luck with your decision but please make sure you will have no regrets

Well without the builders today - being Saturday - we have had a better day.  Pip has been able to roam around the fairly large fenced off bit of garden - although I suspect he is still looking for a way out.  I do feel that without all the work we are having done it may be a lot easier.

As Sillysue said,  the last thing I want to do is re-home him,  I have never given up on on any animal I have owned.  So I will see how it goes - but I am on tenterhooks all the time.

Snowflake

>the last thing I want to do is re-home him

If it's difficult to secure him whilst the builders are there, can you arrange some form of day boarding whilst you are having the work done?  Plenty of kennels offer this service but there are also home boarders too that may be able to help.  Alternatively do you have a friend he could stay with?

It may be worth a try for your peace of mind and his security

Pip has been able to roam around the fairly large fenced off bit of garden - although I suspect he is still looking for a way out.

Is this an area where the builders don't go, because you may be able to find some really cheap paving slabs to put just around the edge of the compound ( up against the fence to stop him from digging ) just in a single line on the outer edge, or even concrete. As long as the fence is high enough and he is prevented from digging under then he should be secure, but it must be an area where people will not keep going through as they can whip through the legs and be gone in a flash. So similar to a kennel run but probably cheaper especially if you take him indoors of an evening, then his very own piece of garden should be enough.
He will need walks and games to make up for his time in his garden, but I am sure he would get used to his quiet time with a stuffed kong or the like and then enjoy his time with you whenever possible.

Don't rehome Pip! Seriously this can be so easily and effectively reslolved without any stress to the dog rehoming him is silly. If you lived down in devon I'd do it for free! (I like jrts quite a bit you see)

Re colliecrew. Yes I would look into alternative aversives. But would not like to have to over do it when an e collar is much kinder.
Re your other comments, The thing is I don't see an effective alternative to using an aversive for some behavuiours. Yes you can use toys and treats to countercondition/train in an incompatible behaviour but when the prey is running most dogs don't really care. You mention something about going back a stage in the training if the dog responses poorly. I'm sure thats good but what if you can never get over that hump? And what if the dog needs to get over that hump to remain with you and have a good life?
On the sheep dog front most shepherds I know use aversives (verbal reprimands) and this is very effective because of the dogs breed and the relationship. Imo a effective verbal reprimand is no gentler than a effective physical aversive (e collar) Ib fact many dogs are quite upset by verbal reprimands but never by e collar training.
TBH the statement about pain is just untrue.

Adam  

Adam, your continual claims that shock collars do not hurt are very irritating. Even the Youtube films you've shown, in support of your claims, suggest that the dogs are not happy as you would have us believe, and as you claim.

If you are going to use electric collars, at least be honest and say that they can and do hurt dogs, and that they are not "kind" as they are positive punishment and negative reinforcement (ie the dog has relief because it avoids the applied aversive) which is unpleasant enough for the dog to avoid.

many dogs are quite upset by verbal reprimands but never by e collar training.
TBH the statement about pain is just untrue.

Even though videos on Youtube have been edited by their makers to avoid showing the bit where the dog is doing "the ecollar walk" out of pain? Or the bit where the dog yelps, or works desperately fast to avoid/escape the shock, or where the dog scuttles into place to avoid it? .... come on Adam. If you use them, at least admit that they can and do cause pain. Don't pretend that they do not.

You cannot rely on the much touted "working level" as that will alter from moment to moment. Sorry, but they do cause pain and you should at least admit this, as some shock collar people do.

Hi LINDSAY, how many dogs have you trained with an e collar?

Just because you dislike it doesn't mean it doesn't work or isn't humane. This thread has been interesting to me, I really thought I'd see lots of positive suggestions for PIP. But tbh there aren't many.

Anyway the working level will change moment to moment, SO you just change it on the collar with the dogs emotional state. All you do is turn the dial/press a button if the dog is more distracted until he feels it again. I do it all the time when working dogs around stock or dogs they have aggression issues with or in high distraction situations. It's no different to making a treat/toy more exciting.

The issue's you mention on the video are just not true. In the pit's case I've watched the vid several times and all the dog does (even at full volume) is grunt when jumping into position. Its a big built dog.
In the other cases the calming signals you mention are the same as those shown on any video of dog/human interaction were the dog isn't extremely focused on the training. I posted a clicker video showing excatly the same signals. The only reason dogs don't show signals when trained is because they are being worked in high drive (just as often with e collars as clickers)

Adam 

It's no different to making a treat/toy more exciting

I can see absolutely no comparison at all to making a treat or toy more exciting to the dog and upping the level of electric shock you are administering to a dog. The dog wants the treat/toy but I fail to believe that any dog would want to receive a shock - are you honestly telling us that some dogs want to be shocked?

The issue's you mention on the video are just not true. In the pit's case I've watched the vid several times and all the dog does (even at full volume) is grunt when jumping into position. Its a big built dog.

You are a trainer and yet you can't read the dog's response correctly? You are only seeing the body language you wish to see and you aren't interpreting it correctly - and this lack of understanding and knowledge is very often the cause of the majority of behaviour problems that people have with their dogs... they misinterpret, misunderstand and the problems begin.

I mean when the dogs level of distraction goes up your level of competing motivation needs to go up. Regardless of wether its a positive or aversive training.

Re your second statement. I used to be anti e collars! I then moved beyond my assumtions and began to seriously research them, the rest is history.

Adam

Adam, watch the videos without sound. Watch the dog's body language in each. It's a real eye-opener to anyone who understands dogs.

>I mean when the dogs level of distraction goes up your level of competing motivation needs to go up.

But the only way to discover how much pain the dog will tolerate before it becomes too much to resist can only be achieved through random trial and error - and what caring person is willing to experiment on their pet?

>I used to be anti e collars! I then moved beyond my assumtions and began to seriously research them, the rest is history.

Well all credit to you Adam for sticking to your guns and coping calmly with the ongoing criticism.  There is a BUT coming...

I have to say I'd voluntarily rehome a dog away from the chickens if e collars were the only training method available to me.  I'm constantly giving myself minor electric shocks from static and I wouldn't wish that on anyone, let alone my dogs.  There have to be other more acceptable ways

I would first remove the problem whilst the builders are there and whilst doors cannot be safely closed - day boarding for instance
I'd then look at buying or building a secure dog area for Pip
I'd also talk to the chicken lady about each of the steps I'm taking and see if there was a way to help her better protect her chickens just in case Pip managed to escape
Once things were more settled and Pip was safe from the vengeful chicken lady and the chickens were safe from Pip I'd review this thread for all the positive actions I could take

Hi

Thanks for your comments - the  collar seems to have provoked lots of reaction.  I can't say I really approve of such a method, to me it seems extreme.

Well, having had a weekend without the builders I myself am feeling calmer and Pip seems to be too.  Mind you they will be back tomorrow! I have to say though they are lovely lads and are all dog lovers.  They make a fuss over all the dogs and do their best to prevent the Pipster (our name for him) escaping.  It was one of the builders who got to him first when he was in the chicken coup the first time.

The temporary fencing seems pretty secure and has kept Pip in. Hubby has reinforced it and it seems dog proof.  I have been keeping Pip in our study (a room off a room so pretty safe from exterior doors) in between letting him potter round the "safe" area in the garden and putting him on his tether for short periods and obviously taking him out  with the other dogs.  This is time consuming (the garden bit) as I feel I have to supervise him at all times, him being such a Houdini.  The lady who keeps the chickens lets them roam free quite often and the last time he escaped and got to them they were out.  He scattered them and one ended up in the main road apparently although it was caught and was okay.  That was three days ago and was the last time he got out.

Hubby is still muttering about rehoming Pip (although he adores  him) but I am hoping that with our renewed vigilance, the safe area and this new routine the dog won't get out again.  Regarding kennelling him - I have put him and  Hannah our Greek hound in several times over the last few weeks  because of all the work being done here.  After the first instance of the chickens I put Pip and Hannah (to keep him company) in the kennels - it was the week before last - for three days.  The people who run the kennels are lovely and been very supportive.  They love Pip!!  Trouble is it is v expensive to keep putting him in kennels and he does get a bit upset at being sent there I think,  although it is lovely there.

I honestly don't want to rehome him as we love him and have had him for six years.  He was difficult when we first rescued him and I know he would react in the same way in some new home.

I will keep you posted as to events this week - hopefully good news!

Snowflake

Hi LINDSAY, how many dogs have you trained with an e collar?
Obviously, none.
And that is a typical question from people who support their use. They think that in some way, it supports their case.

I'd ask you - do you think to have views on some things you need to "experience" them? If that was the case we'd have a very strange world. We could not ever send anyone to prison for a start, as we'd not experienced being a burglar (or worse). Just follow that logic through!

If you understand enough about canine training and behaviour, and how dogs learn, you don't need to actually physically use one on a dog. Same as you don't need to beat a child to know that it's wrong, and so on.

I really thought I'd see lots of positive suggestions for PIP. But tbh there aren't many.

Yes there have been - it has been suggested the owner look at the Dogsecrets site, written by the police dog instructor and behaviourist. It's up to her if she wants to have a go, but it does take commitment, and is not a quick fix.

.

The issue's you mention on the video are just not true.

Really? As I said some time ago, I know of one of the trainers on one of the US videos and let's say she is far from an expert. One featured person caused damage via training to a dog that was on the road to recovery (mental damage, not physical, and it took a long time to get the dog back to how it had been). I think other people has gone over the videos anyway, so not much point in bringing it all up again, as we will all just have to agree to disagree, and hopefully when the ban comes in, you will have to accept that you cannot use shock collars any more.

I will however say one thing re videos, I did see a video which was held up by the usual supporters as just fab. In fact, it was terrible. It was of small dogs who had been fighting. The owner took what was I believe an online with phone support course in shock collar training and then videoed her dogs. All I saw was dogs who yes, were not fighting, but they were very miserable, unsure, and confused. One in particular kept running back to her "safe spot" on a mat where she knew shewould not get stimmed. All the shock collar supporters thought it was so good which really surprised me. I guess they could not see the subtleties and were happy to trade fighting for miserable dogs. Of course as usual - no mention whatsoever of a veterinary check up...

.

Anyway the working level will change moment to moment, SO you just change it on the collar with the dogs emotional state. All you do is turn the dial/press a button if the dog is more distracted until he feels it again.

And you are totally sure of the dog's emotional state every second? Sorry, that is impossible. Some shock collar supporters have, when pushed, admitted that some dogs will be shocked at a higher level than the working level, and will therefore be "toughened up". Yes, really. Nice, eh?

Adam, I do respect you for being calm and polite. However, strongly disagree with your posts :)

What I would say to you is this - if shock collars were not painful and were so good at helping dogs, would not the top behaviourist and training people be using them to improve their success and to get more clients and to make more money?? There is a reason this is not happening.

Lindsay
x

I have to say I'd voluntarily rehome a dog away from the chickens if e collars were the only training method available to me.  I'm constantly giving myself minor electric shocks from static and I wouldn't wish that on anyone, let alone my dogs.

Yes! :)
I have that problem with my car, only about once a day, and it really does hurt and I do try to avoid it by using my sleeve or a bag or anything to avoid that feeling. It's extremely unpleasant. It's OK maybe once, but not every day, and I'm only talking about once a day, too!

Lindsay
x

I honestly don't want to rehome him as we love him and have had him for six years.  He was difficult when we first rescued him and I know he would react in the same way in some new home.

I will keep you posted as to events this week - hopefully good news!

I do hope things manage to sort themselves out, it must be very hard as I can imagine the idyllic situation, but then the problem with one of your loved dogs, making it all a bit difficult.

best wishes
Lindsay

JG, RE your statement about pain.
All I'm doing is observing the dogs reaction while using the collar to make sure he feels it.
An example.
Other day I was working on recall with a dog in a distracting environment (BC on dartmoor, sheep everywhere) at one point I called her and she ignored me, so I stimmed her on level 2 (her working level) she immediatly repsonded, lots of praise throwing the ball ect to reward her. A few minutes later the sheep were closer and presented excatly the same scenario in that I called, she ignored and I used the collar. Because the sheep were right up close to us her distraction/drive level was right up. I upped the level of the collar by one (but didn't repeat the command, I want a response on the first command) she immediatly repsonded, showing she now felt the collar. I turned it back down to 2 and continued working with her. 
In that scenario if I'd been wanting to find her working level around variouse distractions (this isn't needed as you do it on the go) I would have upped the level until she looked at the ground or similar to show she felt it.

Adam

Lots of top trainers and behaviourist (in this country, europe and the usa) do use e collars. They simply aren't promoting themselves as many of the pr people (reward only trainers) propably because like me their quite busy and don't really need more work.

I don't need to be sure of the dogs emotional state every second, I only need to be sure of the dogs reaction to the collar (e;g weather he feels it or not) This is easily done by pressing the button and observing the dog. Note you always start at the dogs lowest working level (found when the dog isn't distracted)

Adam

I too have shocks from cars, shopping trolleys etc.  and boy do they hurt!   :(  wish I knew what to do to avoid them.  I cannot believe that an e-collar would have less impact.  In order to work there must be some level of pain.  Calling it a 'Stim' rather than Shock! does not lessen the discomfort for the dog, although it might allow the user to justify their method as kinder in their own mind.

I actually know someone who tried training their dog not to chase sheep with an e-collar.   Yes it worked... as long as the dog wore the collar.  As soon as it was removed the dog reverted to her original behaviour.   If the collar was on her, but the owner didn't hold the hand set, then she ignored the collar.  Basically she KNEW when the collar was active! 

Dogs aren't stupid, they learn very quickly, but not always the lesson that is intended.

snowflake,

I hope you manage to contain Pipster until such time that you can get him trained to ignore the chickens, having builders in can be stressful and distracting enough without the worry you've had about his antics.

Re the fighting terriers, while they were showing submissive body language they certainly weren't stressed as demonstrated by eating ect
during the video. Also they'd been fighting for years so had a cer to each others presence. But lets face it they weren't fighting!

Re a ban. I'm awaiting the results of the lincolin study as I think a ban will rest on that, seeing as the study (appears) to be done well I doubt a ban will be brought in. Also wales might repeal theres. Mnay countries that have banned or attempted to ban collars either didn't or are likely to repeal it.

Adam

I've watched the videos without sound as you suggest and not seen bad body language, see my original statement re appeasment body language and in drive state.

Re static off cars. Two points.
1, If it hurts its higher than an e collar stim at working level.
2, With e collar the dog learns to control the static so instead of random static (like the car) he knows by doing/not doing things that he will avoid static.

If Pip will not settle well in a rehome situation I would defo recomend this approach. Lets face it the dog isn't going to be the easyist to rehome and his current home sounds good with the right training. If Pips owner gets a collar I will be happy to provide free advice via email.

Adam

So Adam - here is a challenge:

You are so certain that these collars work at below pain level - are you prepared, to have one used upon you, at the SAME LEVELS OF PULSES, FOR THE SAME TIME INTERVALS as you use when -"training"?   And have this trial carried out by one of the sceptics on this Board?   And have the results filmed and published?

:)

Adam, no offence but I've kind of lost interest in this. I know you will not alter your mind, others like myself will not alter theirs. We won't agree over the video. So no point really in to-ing and fro-ing. It's all been done before. It's boring, time consuming and totally pointless.

Yes, there are "trainers" using shock collars, as you say mainly in the US (these same people who DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER VET CHECKS and you never see them advise this). However, I am referring to reputable organisations, not a few willy nilly trainers here and there who often add to the case histories of the better trainers!

But my point is that most educated and experienced trainers and behaviourists here in the UK do not - and there is a reason for that.
As, if as you claim, shock collars did not hurt and caused no harm, these people WOULD be using them and WOULD BE adding them to their toolbox as it would not only help their clients, but give them a better reputation for solving problems and thus get them more money!!!

Yet, in spite of this, they are NOT using them ;)

Did you know that medical problems can even cause predatory chasing????
Do you get your dogs vet checked each time before using shock collars on them? I know you do not, as if you did, you'd be the first shock collar user to do so.

You have your views and others have theirs. I strongly support a ban on use of shock collars, and hope that there is one. I hope the Lincoln study does reflect the stress we know occurs especially when dog owners use them for their pets. I hope they've taken everything into account that needs to be, including the use of pos. punishment and continual negative reinforcement for initial training. I hope they are taking into account basic training (which the shock collar is often, now, thanks to US trainers, used for) and not just punishment in chasing, for example. Otherwise the study will certainly not satisfy me or many others.

I know of one greyhound who had a shock collar used on him for barking and he was a wreck when he was eventually rescued. Even now, when he hears a dog bark, he is terrified. He is slowly improving. And you can say the collars cause no harm ....

Lindsay

Wth regards to your point about people not using them, tbh it depends what dog circles you associate with. I've learned my techniques from trainers ect I know of lots of trainers in the uk who use them, A supplier of mine recently said I was one of many trainer buyers. He often sells four or five units a month to indivadual trainers and has lots of indivadual trainers as customers. That's really the tip of the iceburg as many trainers deal in their favourite brand of collar.
By your own admission your anti negative training, that suggests that the people you associate with will also be anti negative training. If you became pro (like I did) you'd suddeny find lots of people use them.
On this subject most trainers who use them don't come on forums or publises their work for the simple reason they get heavy critism/abuse. Simarly most owners who use them don't come on forums ect because of the abuse they may recieve. I believe there is about 500, 000
e collars around the uk atm. Interestingly wales has seen a 60% decrease in purchases since the ban, not a total reduction.   

Lincoln is taking into account basic training I believe. This will be the real clincher in terms of showing that e collars are ok. As used for basic training and low level stuff their totally none stressful.

On the subject of harm. TBH we could compare stories (which is all they are) for days. But my experience is that any method does harm. I've seen dogs raisded in a totally reward based way who were totally out of control and aggressive. I think if you compare the figures you'd find
e collar trained dogs have fewer problems than any other sort. An intersting point on this. The usa is a very litigouse society. Yet e collar training has never been as popular there! Maybe because its less risky than other training.

Adam