Their over priced stuff gets on my nerves anyway but took my 2 lab pups for their first vaccination today and mentioned their seperation anxiety especially when in the car they get quite distressed - and as they come to work with me they need to go in the car

The vet suggested DAP difusers and spray, but they didnt have any spray in stock and said it would be back tomorrow - ok i thought ill call in at pets at home - so i do i find it in a locked cabinet and ask for some "sorry we dont have anyone in today who is allowed to sell it, there might be someone in tomorrow"

I may be over reacting because i wanted some to ease the puppies distress but i really fail to see the point of stocking something that you then can only sell a couple of days a week? Am i the only one who thinks that is ridiculous??

I am now going to order some online as its cheaper but i broke the diffuser trying to get into the liquid to put some in the car - now its broken i will get into it properly and spray some of that in the mean time

but i really fail to see the point of stocking something that you then can only sell a couple of days a week? Am i the only one who thinks that is ridiculous??

To sell this sort of product, along with certain wormers etc, the person selling them must have undertaken and passed a course to be qualified to do so. I was only looking at it the other day and the cost is around £500.

yeah i understand that i just dont understand the point of even stocking it if they then dont have someone in there who can sell it - the impression i got is that this person works only a couple of days a week in a shop thats open 7 days a week

> To sell this sort of product, along with certain wormers etc, the person selling them must have undertaken and passed a course to be qualified to do so. I was only looking at it the other day and the cost is around £500.

Sorry MarianneB You are quite correct that certain drugs such as Drontal and Frontline must be dispensed by an SQP.  DAP however is not a controlled product and can be sold by anyone.

I would imagine that the sales person at Pets At Home was confused.

Helen thanks for that i did wonder.... It was in a locked cabinet and when i first asked if they had it the girl looked at me as if i was mad - i explained that i had seen it but it was locked away which is when she said that - the reason i wondered was because its available on the front counter at the vets they were just out of stock

Hi

They are obviously treating it the same as a POM-VPS product (ie like Drontal) which by law cannot be displayed in a manner that the public can access and can only be dispensed by a SQP (Suitably Qualified Person).

They simply do not realise the correct veterinary category for DAP.

Sorry I know that this is probably increasing your frustration now.

Hope your pup is ok.

No its not increasing my frustration lol ive calmed down now but i feel it should be pointed out to their store manager to avoid anyone elses frustration - Its daventry in northants where there arent exactly millions of pet shops which is why i went there because i know they sell it on their website so assumed they would have it in store

>They are obviously treating it the same as a POM-VPS product (ie like Drontal)

Drontal is NFA-VPS.

> Drontal is NFA-VPS.

Please accept my sincere apologies. Trying to post while doing other things.

I did hate sitting the SQP exam as the entire manual read like a really bad Patricia Cornwell novel; full of letters and not many complete sentences.

However DAP is not NFA-VPS and can then does not need certified training before sale.

Have a look round your local chemists shops especially the chain-type. I was (pleasantly) surprised to see one local to me stocks DAP, Feliway as well as ProKolin (might have been Protexin - the paste, anyway!), Frontline, various ear cleaners, Drontal, and Dorwest scullcap & valerian. It was a Lloyds branch, don't know if they are a national chain or not.

cheers will have a look - the one thing i did note was that even when pets at home sell it they are more expensive than the vets!! but pet planet do the spray quite a bit cheaper than either of them

Does anyone have any other suggestions for calming them in the car, have tried a treat when they get in so its a nice place, put their toys in their etc but because they are in the boot they cant see me - ignoring them at home unless they wanted 2 go out worked with crying at night but ignoring them in the car doesnt seem to work. Have tried tiring them out too but they still get upset

Are they upset or excited?

In theory any drug labelled, amongst others NFA-VPS can be obtained through a local pharmacy. 
V stands for Vet
P is for Pharmacist
S is for Suitably Qualified Person (SQP)

to be honest i am not 100% sure they jump up at the back window and cry / howl - they have pooed in the car a couple of times and i wasnt sure if that was an accident or because of their anxiety but they have been clean today

>S is for Suitably Qualified Person (SQP)

And that can just be a shop assistant who's been told what to do! There's no 'official' qualification needed. And as you say, DAP is available over the counter anyway; no qualification needed at all.

> they have pooed in the car a couple of times and i wasnt sure if that was an accident or because of their anxiety but they have been clean today

I may be wrong, but that sounds like anxiety. What do you think is making them anxious, is it the car itself or maybe seeing things out of the window? How are they contained in the 'boot' and what kind of boot is it? How many dogs and what size?

Its a focus estate - 2, 9 week old lab pups in half of the boot - its a 3 part dog guard so has the full roof to floor and then a divider down the middle

I did wonder if putting the sun shades in their side might help so that its darker in there for them and they cannot see the passing traffic

Gosh, they are only young then! plenty of time to work this out. At their age then yes it's nerves (anxiety if you like). Many other dogs of this age vomit and tremble as well as soiling. They need time most of all.... they are young 'children' if you like. I would say it's difficult having two pups the same age as they would certainly feed off one another's anxiety. Be kind and gentle, give them a few little journeys, even put them in there for 10 mins when you're not going anywhere. Little things over a period of time... don't expect to get there in a hurry with them, as they are such little ones, and there's no quick fix for this.

Thats good i have all the time in the world its just horrible hearing them cry like that which is why the vet thought tha DAP spray may help calm them - Nothing bad has happened to them while in the car with me and as far as i am aware the only other car journey they have ever been on was on the way down to me

I had probs with Leo at first too but his was travel sickness which he got over when i took him out of the crate and put him on a harness on the back seat

I just dont want to mess it up and have them hating the car for life if you know what i mean

Agree with  MsTemeraire.  Even the odd meal (when you're at home) fed in the car.  Take little tiny steps!  :-)

Thats a good idea i like that - I work for myself and the car is always at work with us so i could try short periods (its always nearby and i can hear them) so i could maybe do lunch in the car

> I had probs with Leo at first too but his was travel sickness which he got over when i took him out of the crate and put him on a harness on the back seat

That's another thing you could try, just temporarily. I think it's travel sickness with them too but just with different symptoms if that makes sense. Sometimes dog prefer to travel facing forwards which they could do if they have car harnesses. And it's a lot harder having two, as I'm sure anyone would say :)

what would you recommend putting under them? a training pad? i dont really want my seats peed on lol but im willing to try if it might help them - in fact.... i think i might have a waterproof seat cover with the holes for seatbelts (RAC one) i will check tomorrow and see where it is

Are you keeping both pups? I think you are asking an awful lot of two young pups. how long are they spending in the car and is that going to be a permanent arrangement?

yes i am keeping both

It is 15 mins each way to work

I should add - and i do not want to cause offense to anyone....

This thread was about DAP spray... I do NOT expect my pups to magically love the car which is why i am lookin for ways to calm them, i do NOT want them distressed if at all possible

BUT i must also add that i was told the same as the previous poster by my ex in laws that we were expecting 2 much of our sheltie pup taking him to work - and ofr 6 years he was fine it took a bit of getting used to, as stated in an earlier post but he did get used to in and in fact loved it, he hated it on days we didnt go to work!

I also discussed this with the vet earlier who has 2 labs and she did the same as a locum the pup had to get used to all sorts of new places and coped fine

I am purely looking for advice on calming them in the car

You are just seeing the first problem of the many we all warned you about. :( Two pups are such a bad idea as you get double trouble and they copy each other. As I said before, I had to keep two pups from a litter in 2008 and there was no way I could travel with them together as pups. They were sick, they peed, they screamed, they tried to get out. So I stopped trying, took each one in the car on their own (or even better with an adult dog but of course not everyone has more dogs), and the problems stopped very quickly when they weren't together. 

Normally I would always travel with young pups on my lap when possible until they get too big, to get them used to the travel experience. Virtually all young pups I've ever had have felt sick when travelling in the back of the car or in a cage, but not if on my lap or on the back seat with a harness and somebody sitting next to them.

I fully agree about feeding in the car, and also at this age, every car journey (or at least the great majority) needs to end in a pleasant experience. My 6 month old for instance knows that as soon as we get in the car, something fun will happen, like training classes or a nice extra special walk. At 9 weeks the only experiences are likely to have been being collected form the breeder, going to the vet for vaccinations, both quite traumatic incidents, and then starting regular travel without anything really great happening, it's not going to help.

Ok i will try feeding them in the car and see if it helps i obviously cannot end it in a nice walk yet as they arent fully vaccinated

I have to say i really dont like the way everyone on here flys at you with their opinion as to how you are doing everything wrong - it is incredibly off putting - these are not my first dogs and i expected the reaction but maybe people should think before shooting people down in flames, it is only going to put people off asking for advice

I did not ask anyones opinion on how many dogs i have and at what age and if you would rather moan about what i have done than give advice then fine i will go elsewhere - but i am well aware that from that thread there were the few people who seemed scared to admit that it worked with 2 dogs

But if that is the way people feel i will only speak to my vet in future

You are not, and will not be the only person reading this -Google throws up CD as results when typing in a host of dog related questions. This could be read in 5 years time by somebody with the same problem. It would be irresponsible NOT to point out that the problems you are already having will be doubled due to having two pups -and you were warned of this in advance as well. You will not usually be able to get good training advice from a vet. Here you have been given a lot of tips and suggestions from people who have been through it.

> I have to say i really dont like the way everyone on here flys at you with their opinion as to how you are doing everything wrong - it is incredibly off putting - these are not my first dogs and i expected the reaction but maybe people should think before shooting people down in flames, it is only going to put people off asking for advice

Well hold on, I certainly haven't had a go at you, and yes it was needed to know how old the dogs are and how many, as these things do matter! Now I know they are but young 'uns, that makes a huge difference.... what would be sound advice for adult dogs wouldn't be appropriate for pups. And what is good advice for one pup, may not be right for two pups.... it matters! The best thing you can give them right now is your patience. They are only babies after all :)

Would just like to add, I have not had many pups in my lifetime, but the only one I have never had any kind of travel sickness or travelling issues with is my current dog..... who didn't go in a car til he was 5 months old apart from the first journey at 9 wks. I don't drive, so he was first introduced to buses as passing traffic outside on the street, then we sat at bus stops watching buses come in & go (they make scary hissing noises!) and seeing people go on and off, then taken on buses on my lap, later sitting on the bus floor, then going on trains, and finally going in a car. By the time he first went in a car he was so used to travelling on a bus that he thought nothing of it. There is a lot to be said for this approach in socialisation as it is what is expected of a guide or assistance dog, but it may not occur to anyone who has a car to try this alternative approach. All the previous pups I've lived with had dreadful travel sickness in the car as puppies, and also on public transport, and it took a lot of work with them as adults to get them fully comfortable with any moving vehicle.

I think it is relevant as 2 adolescent male labs expected to sit in the car for a while whilst you are at work could be a disaster if not properly trained for at the beginning. I am wondering if it would be worth training them to have seperate crates so that you can leave them with chews and kongs so that they can amuse themselves SEPERATELY rather than play fighting together. 2 pups from the same litter can bond very closely (or fight as they get older, hence why i always advise against it) and so the last thing you want them doing is spending a lot of time in each others company without you present otherwise you may find trouble controlling them as they get older as they have bonded closer to each other than with you.

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/fourwheelphobia

this may be of some help. It does sound fear or anxiety related, DAP may well be useful.

If you continue to have problems or it gets worse, try someone from the APBC or perhaps APDT to help.

Lindsay
x

That's what my hubby's in charge of - assessing and keeping track of the SQPs! (not of when PAH bother to have them on site though, sorry!) :-D

In my 28 years of dog owning - and I am only 21 LOL,I have had a couple of dogs when puppies would salivate quite a bit,tried the ginger biscuits and this gradually worked.My Canadian Eskimo puppy was the worst.His first trip to the vets he pooped in his cage.I had no probs with my other CED pupster who was 3 months older but they were crated in the van seperately.I didn't make any fuss,if he was soiled I would clean him up and try again.After a long 6 weeks or so he just grew out of it and is now an easy traveller.Good luck.

I wondered if crating them separately would help while they are so small, maybe even these soft travel crates. We always found that any puppies we had settled better in an enclosed or covered space so maybe there is just too much room for them if they have access to the whole area? We had a huge crate in our kitchen for both Bramble and Treacle when they were small and Treacle always coped better if it was under the breakfast bar rather than out in the open, they seem to like cave-like spaces. :-) You also get DAP collars which might be better as they are always with them IYKWIM

BTW I think the DAP is in a locked cabinet in PAH because its expensive and small enough to shop lift! The Plaque off is also in there and I don't think they need any qualifications to sell that - its just expensive and small :-D

The theory is that, for every 5 minutes puppies are playing with each other they need to spend 15 minutes each apart and playing with the owner, to make sure that they don't become too dependent on each other. Bearing this in mind leaving one at home for someone else to care for while you take the other to work, then alternate between puppies, would be the best option, but if that isn't possible, if as you say the back is sectioned off into two parts as you said then you could put one pup in each half with a solid divider so they can't see each other. This would help prevent them winding each other up and becoming more and more hysterical.

Have you tried playing them music.

I have heard good reviews of the Canine Lullabies and would be interested to know what anyone thinks about the effect as we're planning on stocking the CDs in the UK.

For immediate try, you can download the music too http://www.caninelullabies.com/

(I would be really interested to know if anyone has tried it in a kennels situation too if you have the time to pm me)