mastifflover

it really doesnt matter what questions we ask and what arguements we use to him,he is hell bent on his use of e-collars, he goes against manufacturers own guidelines, is of the opinion that the legislation banning the use of them in Wales is wrong, actually says they do not cause pain, has no qualifications in training what so ever and barely scraped a pass in animal welfare at uni.
One day he may use one of his e-collars on the wrong dog and then he'll find out why e-collars should never be used for aggression.
He tries telling experienced people on this forum (and others)that e-collars are humane,comes out with utter nonsence and wonders why we argue about it!
I have trained with some of the best obedience people in the country who have multiple OB champions including Mary Ray, Bronwin Bartley and Pat and Herbie Watson to name just a few and none of these people have ever had to inflict pain (mild or otherwise) on any of their dogs.
The best thing to do is ignore him,he knows everything and nothing and I for one refuse to fuel his over inflated ego anymore.

On the subject of electric shocks. As I've maintained and demonstrated with the odd video the discomfort the dog feels is very mild. You can observe the dogs reaction and see he isn't in pain ect. Anyone with even basic dog knowledge can see this if they get away from the '' omg an electric shock'' attitude. All the dogs I've trained with e collars have a positive response to the sight of the collar. Approach and sit to have it pout on is notrmal. This isn't something I've trained just something they've learned to get the collar on quick so they can go on a walk/training session which they enjoy.

Adam you have mainteined yes but certainly haven't demonstrated anything to support your argument with the videos you have out up, all they have done is show dogs demonstrating stress signals and avoidance. the likes of which needn't be seen and aren;t when dogs are trained differently!  Just because you don't see this doesn't mean it isn' the case, just means you have a good case of head in the sand!

Really it says a lot about your training approach that you manage to engage every thread in the talk of ecollars regardless of how it starts!  I would counter your argument and say that anyone who has even the very basics of dog kowledge could see the pitfalls of using an e collar if they could get a way from the 'quick fix, you can't train all dogs with goodies attitude'  Really take aversisves/punishment out of the equation and stop talking about them and see how much you have left to contribute! You can't keep makig pressumptions on behalf of all dogs saying they don't hurt/casue fear or pain - if you want to ignore obvious body language and signs to the contrary that's up to you, but stop speaking on behalf of dogs when you are using such methods to train them.

> The best thing to do is ignore him,he knows everything and nothing and I for one refuse to fuel his over inflated ego anymore.

I get the impression Adam would like to be the new Cesar Millan.

Dog associates the e colalr with nice stuff walks ect, dog will only experience very brief periods of stim during even intense training so won't associate the stim with the collar.

Re food drive. Dogs will usually work for food in an environment that offers nothing better. Offer the dog something more exciting and you can forget it. The reason food doesn't overide other stuff is because while food is a basic need other stuff (dog interaction, chasing ect) are also basic needs and these behaviours will actually help the dog get more food in the future (in his mind). So it makes sense for him to forget the food for now as interacting (e;g forming a pack) with other dogs or chasing something are behavioours that will improve his chances of aquiring food in the future.

Adam

Dog associates the e colalr with nice stuff walks ect, dog will only experience very brief periods of stim during even intense training so won't associate the stim with the collar.

I think this is probably the basis of your problem, you really don't have much respect for dogs or give them mush credit do you.  You work on conditioning responses to train a dog in various drives and then generalise it - set the dog up for succsess and condition a response and then it is reliable and the dog is interested in food or toy rewards nbecause you build up in increments where the dog can respond and cope and yes people do use these methods with dogs with real issues, with chase issues, with aggression issues, people and dogs etc etc and they work long term, are reliable and don;t leave the dogs stressed and offering appeasment and avoidance behaviours.

Like I said you manage to turn every thread you participte in into one about e collars and to be honest it's boring.

The best thing to do is ignore him,he knows everything and nothing and I for one refuse to fuel his over inflated ego anymore.

It seems this may be the best way to go as he clearly isn't prepared to listen to anyone who doesn't share his opinion and clearly can't answer questions outside the box and keeps delivering the same old lines even when people offer evidence to the contrary :-(

Yes you can proced as you've described and it will work on some dogs to a certain extent. It won't give reliable off lead in any environment within a few weeks though except for a few exceptional dogs.

Re issues, the same applies. People have success with the reward based approach but not on all dogs and not on the majority of dogs to a total resolution. I do.

Also many dogs with issue or high excitment levels won't have a below threshold point say on the street for practical training purposes, I see this all the time.

I have huge respect for dogs and give them enormouse credit. I don't buy into the therory that its in their benifit to be totaly trained without aversives though if it doesn't produce results.

Adam

No, you didn't ask about why I said I would use methods of rewarding other than food.  That's the question that should have been asked instead of jumping to incorrect conclusions.  I seem to remember that at one time someone even suggested the OP may not now use reward based training because I said I would use Praise rather than food. 

How ridiculous is that.  It's completely illogical but then most of the responses to my stating a preference to Praise as a reward rather than food were illogical.

Yes you can proced as you've described and it will work on some dogs to a certain extent. It won't give reliable off lead in any environment within a few weeks though except for a few exceptional dogs.

Reliable comes with repetition, time and trust otherwise we would all have 100% obedient dogs within a couple of weeks of them coming to live with us. A quick fix is just that and doesn't address the underlying cause of a behaviour - papering over cracks is never a solution just a delaying tactic.

Yes you can proced as you've described and it will work on some dogs to a certain extent. It won't give reliable off lead in any environment within a few weeks though except for a few exceptional dogs.

Reliable comes with repetition, time and trust otherwise we would all have 100% obedient dogs within a couple of weeks of them coming to live with us. A quick fix is just that and doesn't address the underlying cause of a behaviour - papering over cracks is never a solution just a delaying tactic.

Absolutely!  No it's not a case of it will work with some dogs to a certain extent - just because you can't or won't do it that way doesn't means it's not the best or most reliable way because it is as far as I'm concerned and in my experience.  There aren't the same fallouts from doing it that way and it is reliable becaue it is conditioned and gneralised and it has become sequence.  No it won't always happen witihin a few weeks but that's because training doesn't happen in a few weeks if you want it to be reliable. it takes time and as said above repetiion in small increments building up.  It is a methods I use successfuly with my own dogs and tehy are very reliable, two sight hounds and a Dobe with very high prey dirve.  I use it with clients dogs and they ind they end up having a better relationship with their dogs and far more reliable that the dogs ever were using the aversives that you may focus on!

Like I say, don't dismiss something because you can't achieve it another more human way Adam - you are just talking about your experience which is not fact!  There is a science behind the way animals learn and there are plnty of studies and research that show prove this, your way is not the most reliable as has been proven with punshment time and time again!

> Yes you can proced as you've described and it will work on some dogs to a certain extent. It won't give reliable off lead in any environment within a few weeks though except for a few exceptional dogs.

Adam,I think you should watch a dvd called Really Reliable Recall by Leslie Nelson.Not a shock collar in sight and it works.

I find it so sad that a seemly intelligent person can only train using electric shocks.

I hope your training methods evolve and you that you can look back on your former practices with shame.

> Re food drive. Dogs will usually work for food in an environment that offers nothing better. Offer the dog something more exciting and you can forget it. The reason food doesn't overide other stuff is because while food is a basic need other stuff (dog interaction, chasing ect) are also basic needs and these behaviours will actually help the dog get more food in the future (in his mind). So it makes sense for him to forget the food for now as interacting (e;g forming a pack) with other dogs or chasing something are behavioours that will improve his chances of aquiring food in the future.

Yep, some times food as a lure just isn't interesting enough - I agree with that (and my dog would walk over hot-coals to stuff his face :)), but that doesn't mean that you can't still use food as a reward for compliance in those situations - you just need to use something more motivating to get the dogs attention/lure desired behaviour.