Docking is the socially acceptable term for disfiguring a perfectly healthy dog by chopping of it`s tail during the early part of it`s young life.

I have a 5.1/2 year Rottie that we adopted from a very reputable rescue kennels last October. He is of quality breed, a perfect animal and YES somebody lopped off his tail and left him with a 3 inch stub.

Can anybody tell me why this practice of ritualistic mutilation on certain breeds of dogs was ever started ?
Also, is it legal to dock dogs tails under our current legislation ?

John Bull

PS - Was it to deceive the enemy by simulating a head at each end, so that in retreat it was thought to be advancing ?
See :-
http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab327/johnbull17/two_faced_dog.jpg

Dogs were and are docked for different reasons - different breeds different answer. Some may even be for the same reason they dock lambs.

As far as Rotties are concerned I do not know you will need a breed specialist to tell you that, would hazard a guess that working Rotts frequently break their tails but as I said I do not know.

I dont expect whatever anyone said to this question, the op would accept

Think you are probably right, perhaps I should not have answered a question asked in such a manner.

Docking of most breeds in the UK is banned (apart from in N.Ireland), so the arguments for and against the docking of Rottweillers is obsolete.

The only breeds allowed to be legally docked now are some gundogs and terriers that are used as workng dogs

Dear Malcolm,

I am extremely grateful for your absolute interpretation of my perfectly legitimate post and the two questions asked.
You have answered them without padding and I assume from your comment it was working dogs that were originally docked, the reasons why still baffle me. Something to do with avoiding tail damage while carrying out their allotted tasks.

This legislative restriction on docking must be relatively recent as my Rottie is only 5.1/2 years old. Am I correct in this ?
Or, has my Rottie been subject to the die-hard attitude of some loath-to-change tail-chopping enthusiast ?

John

>This legislative restriction on docking must be relatively recent as my Rottie is only 5.1/2 years old. Am I correct in this ?

Yes, the ban was introduced in April 2007.

One thought of the origins of tail docking in rotts was that they were originally used for herding large cattle & livestock, and to dock it's tail would prevent possible injury

As others have said tail docking was not done for fashion but for the working dog. One must remember that its quite recent that people only really keep their dogs as just pets, were as 100-200 years ago dogs were used mainly for working, so the docking was practical and done to protect the dog from breaking or hurting itself out in the field.

The ban has been recent, but again working dogs can still legally be docked.

Oh and some breeds are born with little or no tails like the bob tail on the boxer but its quite rare

> Or, has my Rottie been subject to the die-hard attitude of some loath-to-change tail-chopping enthusiast ?
>

Although some people will still be found to be breaking the law, not all vets will turn a blind eye.

A lovely Rottie pup was recently taken into the vets that I use.  The receptionist told me that the vet found out where the dog came from, so that the breeder could be prosecuted.  In fairness to the pet owners of this puppy, they didn't know any different, and were not aware of the legislation.

Although docking of pets actually became illegal on 6th April 2007, the Act was discussed in April 2006.  In December of that year the BVA struck off a vet for docking a litter of Weimaraners that were from a show litter.

I am so impressed with all your posts.
Collectively, they have told me why certain breeds were docked and also the date of recent legislation - 2007.

My boy was born in 2004 so he came face to face with the dreaded axe-man.
I love your comments about vets and others being prosecuted for breaking the law. So the Tiger has teeth.

Thank you everybody for your response. A couple did not like my style, but it is mine and I have no intention of upsetting anybody, just to hit the bulls eye combined with a little humour where appropriate.

Best regards
John Bull

I have two Rotties in my pup class, both around 6 months old, one bred by a breeder who's name I reconised with a tail and one bred in a 'not so nice area' that has its tailed docked.  The owner of the docked tailed puppy didnt realise it was banned (sigh!) and when I told her that vets don't dock anymore (except some working types) she asked me how would it have been done. She was most upset when I told of how some backstreet breeders do it (I'm an ex vet nurse who has seem some DIY jobs).
If I were to find out who the 'breeder' was, what would I do to report it and to whom?

> If I were to find out who the 'breeder' was, what would I do to report it and to whom?

First point of call will be trading standards, as they are the ones who bring the cases to court.

Thanks, I need to try and get the details without raising suspicion as I don't want any comeback, they dont sound like the sort of people to cross.  Another lady in my class, had her puppy kindly delivered to her door to save her driving only 50 miles! They sent her pictures of the mum and dad and where they lived and insisted on not driving all that way. She was totally taken in by them.  Why are people so trusting, its a very sad situation for so many dogs out there, it makes me feel so helpless for them.

Sorry if I have drifted away from the op's question. :-)

Done humanely, docking shouldn't cause any trauma.  The idea of docking dogs causes more trauma to us, than the dogs, as long as it is done with anaesthetic and correctly. 

I know a few people with working breeds that are docked and am an advocate of it in their situation, where they work their dogs (the majority spaniels) in thick cover, where the possibility of injury is very real.  It's not a nice question, do you dock a pup a few days old as a preventative measure or not? 

The further question to me, is, as long as it is done as humanely as possible, why should this pup/dog, then be excluded from showing?  There are some very good people working their dogs and showing them, that will be excluded from many areas of competition because of the ban on showing dogs that have been docked.  Yet another case, where a blanket ban does more harm than good.  With the widening gap between certain working breeds, and I have in mind the gundog breeds, now is really not the time to isolate those who have good examples of proven working ability that happen to be docked. 

In HPR breeds where there is no split between working & show types, tail docking is needed.  Even my LM bitch who is almost 10 years old breaks open the end of her tail occasionally when out on walks because she has such a strong side to side tail action when hunting & this is a breed where tipping was optional so goodness knows the what damage could be done on a long GSP or Wei tail.

Sleeping Lion has a good point

**III.  History
Tail docking and ear cropping date to the early Romans, who believed that the practices prevented rabies.11 During the European Middle Ages, through the end of the 18th century, Lamarck's theory of acquired characteristics12 was widely accepted. As such, people believed that by docking the tails of the parents, "the new born puppies would look like their parents" and also exhibit short tails.13 In addition, long-tailed or floppy-eared dogs used for hunting, fighting, or watching flocks were at a greater risk of injury associated with those activities. As such, tails were docked and ears cropped to reduce the number of places another dog or other animal could grab. The owners of working dogs often believed that tail docking reduced a dog's maneuverability, thereby discouraging the dog from chasing game,14 while the other dog owners often believed that tail docking resulted in a stronger back and increased speed.15

Finally, various tax schemes may have accounted for the proliferation of tail docking. In some areas, dogs used for work were not taxed, so the owners of such dogs would dock the tails to indicate that the dog was used for work and not subject to tax.16 In other areas, farmers were taxed according to the length of their dogs' tails, so docking was used to reduce the tax liability.17 Moreover, sport hunting was considered to be reserved for the wealthy nobility, and it was believed that only long-tailed dogs were suitable for hunting. As such, the owners of long-tailed dogs were required to pay a high tax and tail docking became a practice of the commoners**

So the exact opposite re hunting ;)

> This legislative restriction on docking must be relatively recent as my Rottie is only 5.1/2 years old. Am I correct in this ? Or, has my Rottie been subject to the die-hard attitude of some loath-to-change tail-chopping enthusiast ?

But you already knew this; you asked the same question on another forum earlier this year and got more or less the same responses. It's not hard to find out for yourself anyway. I don't get it.

MsTemeraire

One is not restricted in asking the same question on a hundred Forum`s and there is no reason why not.

It so happens that Forum`s have completely different members and therefore give completely different answers. The fact that people belong to several Forum`s is not a crime either. No doubt YOU do yourself or you would not have known what is stated in your post about me.

A question is not only in the interest of the person asking it, it is of interest to other Forum members. Hence asking the same question on several Forums will not give exclusively the same answer, but some posts may coincide. It also gives separate groups of people the opportunity to take part in a common discussion.

Do you not understand this ? I would bet that you have often asked the same question on several Forum`s and got the same answer, so why make such a remark about me ?

I hope this rather unnecessary explanation has clarified your "I don`t get it" problem.
John Bull - I don`t think I get it either.

I've seen those various historical facts surrounding tail docking from previous discussions, is it from Wikipedia??  I have never heard of a docked collie, but then I haven't particularly spent a long time researching the facts, surely they would have been a prime candidate if farmers were using it as a tax evasion tactic.  I remain to be convinced about that aspect of it as the sole reason for docking. 

I was thinking about this more last night, after my internet connection went kaplooeeee for the umpteenth time and I finally gave in, put a bung in the wine and went to bed.  We are perfectly willing to put our dogs through a GA and x-rays for what we see as a necessary but somehow *good* evil, and yet docking dogs to prevent injury done when pups are a few days old with local anaesthetic is frowned upon. 

> We are perfectly willing to put our dogs through a GA and x-rays for what we see as a necessary but somehow *good* evil, and yet docking dogs to prevent injury done when pups are a few days old with local anaesthetic is frowned upon. 

Good point!   Vets are perfectly happy to neuter dogs as a preventative measure for health/temperament/social inacceptability of entire animals.

I've never had a pup docked with anaesthetic didn't even know they did it and would think that would be more dangerous or do you just mean a LA?

Pups hardly flinch when having their tails docked, having their dew claws removed though boy did they scream and this practice is still allowed!

Luckily with my breed they can be born with different lenght tails (as long as one ofthe parents is a natural short tail).  I have a youngster with a tail which is a nightmare, luckily my latest girl was born with a natural short tail.

'I've never had a pup docked with anaesthetic didn't even know they did it and would think that would be more dangerous or do you just mean a LA? '

Yes, local anaesthetic, some vets do, some don't, I suppose it's then up to the breeder whether they actually request it with a vet that doesn't use it as a matter of course.  And a very good point re dew claws, I would imagine without anaesthetic it would be painful!

I think it's a great shame that a lot of people after a pet dog to do some competition with are put off nicely bred working pups, because they can't compete with a docked dog.  A breeder won't know at a few days old, which pup(s) they might want to keep back, so they can't pick and choose which pups are docked, and which aren't, it is much easier to just do the lot.  I might add it would be cheaper to do just one or two as well, but would any breeder like to be put on their toes and say at three or four days old *that's* the pup you have to keep?? 

:) Ms T :)

> And a very good point re dew claws, I would imagine without anaesthetic it would be painful!
>
>

Although, in law, there is no reason why I should not carry out this procedure myself, I had always had my own vet to remove dew claws.  This was always carried out before 3 days old, and my vet would refuse to remove dew claws later than this.

I always asked that I hold pups myself during the procedure, and had no problem holding a tiny paw while it was done.  Until I actually had a pup cry out.  Although it wasn't continual crying, and certainly stopped very quickly, I didn't like it.  I stopped having the procedure carried out almost 2 years ago. Although it is still legal.

Plenty of docked Collies arund here, God only knows why :s.

No, it's not from Wikipedia. It's from Animal Law Info: http://www.animallaw.info/articles/dduscroppingdocking.htm. Alot of history books mention tax and tail docking for example, so that's nothing new.

Thanks for the link, I can't open it unfortunately :(   darn computer!!!!  It nearly went out the window last night when the wireless woooter packed up, again!!! 

Docked Collies?  Even though they herd and many of the herding breeds were docked never seen a docked Collie.

My dear colleagues,

What I must say that this thread response is the most informative and sensible I have ever had from a Forum.
The information I have had from your comments is fantastic. I am so impressed with the maturity of posters in expressing their experiences and views.

Yes, a few bad apples have made their appearance, but you get that in any group.

One person made  the point that I have placed this question on another Forum. Oh my God, I have sinned, no Heaven now for me.
Nobody on this Planet has gone through life without asking the same question to several people. It is called obtaining a diversity of opinion. We do it every day. A ridiculous point to make actually, but to be expected in any sample.

Anyway, thanks to all of you for a superb response.
John Bull

I've never seen any until I moved to Ireland although some of the old German herding dogs were traditionally docked way back then. Perhaps that is the reason why the Old English Sheepdog was bred as a bobtail?

Australian Shepherds were a docked breed in the UK, but also have natural bob-tail lines.

Daisy

Everbody is entitled to their opinion & I totally understand/respect yours, so I will share mine.

I am pro-docking, not for cosmetic reasons. I know of boxers who've suffered tail injury, they went through so much pain & the vets would not fully amputate the tail, they first wanted to see if it would heal, no it wouldn't as any excitment & waggly bumness would open the wound again and unfortunatly we can't tell our pets to not be excited to see us!
Another reason, my older dog who is docked has been hit in the eye by my younger boxers tail, he went 2 weeks healing but thankfully is ok.
My goddaughter loves my dogs but can only play with the older dogs, she can't play with the youngest as his tail is so whip like we fear he may hurt her, such a shame as they are desperate to play.
Not every breed carries their tail the same way & uses it in the same manor.

I am not trying to convert you, just sharing my experiences/opinion.

Kids soon learn to get out the way of a dallie wag!!
We have only experienced one black eye!

> Kids soon learn to get out the way of a dallie wag!!
>

Like I said, different breeds use their tails in different ways.

I've had plenty of Boxers and Boxer x here and a now 6 yro child. He soon learnt to get out of the way and it was never a problem. I personally find being whipped by a GD tail or GH tail VERY painful but that doesn't mean I'd want to cut of their tails.

> Oh my God, I have sinned, no Heaven now for me

No me either!!   Don't worry too much though John.

Where we are going, we should see a lot of people we know.  :-)  :-)  :-)

I dont expect whatever anyone said to this question, the op would accept

Agree completely, our  Mr Bull is full of it and his own importance,  along with swallowing a dictionary, it because increasingly hard to decipher  his  writings???

And as he has said himself many times (on other forums before he gets banned) he posts these topics for one reason only for his own amusement!!

So folks, in future ,,  dont feed this troll!!  he enjoys it to much.

<Done humanely, docking shouldn't cause any trauma.  The idea of docking dogs causes more trauma to us, than the dogs, as long as it is done with anaesthetic and correctly. >

I have never had any of my pups tails docked under any kind of anaesthetic. Many years ago when anyone could dock I would have the tails cut at the same time the dew claws would be done and the bitch had to go out of the room away so she couldn't hear any crying. When it became law that only vets could dock, I had my pups tails banded like a lambs tail and they would be done whilst the bitch was still in with her pups so she could see what was happening with no problem. She would then be taken out of the house when the dew claws are done.