>help a dog tell the difference between a bunny and a hare...lol

My dog can tell,

Rabbit:  'Ooh look, ears, and a tail.  Ah ha - a bunny.  Wow!  I'm gonna chase that'

Hare: 'Ooh lo.. '      whoosh         'Oh bugger!' 

'Can I have a treat now?' :)

rabbits and hare are very similar. Might be harder for the dog to know the difference. Could be done though.

What would a dog do if he saw a large rabbit - sorry but these animals are so similar to look at its just size, how on earth can that be done?

> The thing is the e colalr stim is so mild (no pain just tingling discomfort) that its alot less bothersome to the dog than a sudden jangle of discs. I've trained with both and prefer the e collar as its nicer to the dog.

Come on Adam, when are you going to admit you haven't been doing this for very long, and have only trained a few dogs?

As the owner of two scent hounds I believe that if they were used to a pet rabbit they would probably leave well alone but when out, a very different game. Lucas pays no attention as we walk through local fields which are full of rabbits, they have got so use to him that they don't even move. Yesterday he walked right up to one within four or five inches before it turned and hopped into the hedge, leaving him looking at me with a look of 'what did I do'. But then I have watched him charge hundreds of yards along the beach paying no attention to my atempts of recall, for a washed up fish. Otto a very different character, kept on lead or would disappear into the distance as long as his legs would carry him, doubt if he could catch it though.

>> My dog can tell,
>
> Rabbit:  'Ooh look, ears, and a tail.  Ah ha - a bunny.  Wow!  I'm gonna chase that'
>
> Hare: 'Ooh lo.. '      whoosh         'Oh bugger!' 
>
> 'Can I have a treat now?' :-)

Love it!!

>he saw a large rabbit - sorry but these animals are so similar to look at its just size

Actually they don't, even in the field they are pretty easy to tell apart, although it helps if you see them often enough to learn the differences.  Size is a dead giveaway but pose/position and colour helps too.  If you are in any doubt, as soon as it starts to move you can see it's a hare.  They have so much more air under their hind legs than a rabbit.

You are less likely to stumble over a hare than a rabbit and, in my experience, hares are actually more likely to eyeball you for a while too.  IF my dog took off after a hare, the hare can shift at amazing speed whilst still managing to look like it's just loping along.  Stunning creatures

Can my dog tell the diff?  No not really - other than the fact it's in the next county by the time he gets to where it was :)

Surely a dog chasing something wether it be a ball or a rabbit is exhibiting a natual behaviour/instinct and i think all too often these traits are wanted to be supressed by owners. Thier dogs for god sake. Chasing killing and eating things is what dogs did long before we humans invited them into our homes.

Im not suggesting that owners should allow thier dogs to chase anything that moves, and precautions should be taken around livestock and animals of value and by precautions i mean putting the dog on a lead, not zapping it with a horrid E-collar.
My dogs love to chase (thier gundogs), but rarely catch anything unless the squirel is especially slow. They also go out on shoots which they love, where again thier natural instincts are allowed to be exhibited.
Where do you stand on the shooting of game colliecrew? Should that be discouraged too? Just curious.

Ill also add that i do not have any problem with fox hunting or hare coursing, i know thats not in disscusion but it seems something that many people are affraid to say these days. Im not a blood thirsty monster, but i think to see a dog do what it was designed and bred to do is one of the nicest sights in the world.

In Scotland it's the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002.

This does not give anyone the right to chase any wild mammal on private land.

I assume you are also referring to Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 which allows people (with dogs under control) to roam private land. This act also does not give you the right to allow your dog to chase rabbit on private land.

An estate owner is perfectly within their legal right to ask anyone to leave their land where their dog is deemed to be out of control.

Being a working estate means we have many wild mammals and birds who the estate work hard to protect - pheasant, red squirrel, partridge. Where vermin needs to be controlled, it is done by those who have the skills to do so. Not by some pet owner who thinks it's amusing or allowing a dog to fulfill their natural potential to chase down, kill and possibly eat wildlife. Even vermin have the right to a humane death and not by some untrained dog maiming them to suffer a slow and painful death.

Adam, how in the world could you train a dog to know the difference between a hare and a rabbit??

>Adam, how in the world could you train a dog to know the difference between a hare and a rabbit??

One electric shock for a rabbit, two for a hare.

Where do you stand on the shooting of game colliecrew?

Why do people assume that because I think it's highly irresponsible for pet owners to allow their dogs to chase and kill wildlife, that this equates to me being classed as some sort of "sentimental" idiot!

I am not involved in game shooting, I don't own gun dogs, I own collies because I own sheep (and shock, horror - yes, some do go to slaughter!). I lease land from a private gaming estate where organised shoots with trained dogs are held. Let me assure you on this, if one of my dogs took down a pheasant or partridge with the knowledge of the estate, I too would be escorted off the land and not welcomed back!! I can also assure you that, even with a high chase and prey drive, my dogs would never give chase without an explicit command to do so. I want my dogs controlled, not distracted by every encounter with a wild animal!!

Where I have massive issues is with people who own dogs with specific skills and think it's acceptable for their dog to chase down wildlife with little control, with no training whatsoever and with an owner who would have NO idea what to do if their dog injured an animal!

People who own livestock, who rear game birds, who are involved in land management all have (with perhaps limited exceptions) the utmost respect for wildlife. This is not something which is overly evident on this thread.

I did wonder when someone would raise fox hunting and hare coursing as being acceptable "hobbies". Absolutely repugnant and, I for one (with more to lose than most from foxes) thank the heavens for the laws which prohibit this "sport"! 

electric shocks???? Good grief!!

> In Scotland it's the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002.
>
> This does not give anyone the right to chase any wild mammal on private land.
>

Quoted from the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002

wild mammal"--
(a)includes a wild mammal which has escaped, or been released, from captivity, and any mammal which is living wild;
(b)does not include a rabbit;
(c)does not include a rodent;

:-)

> One electric shock for a rabbit, two for a hare.

ROFL, I'd love our resident electric shock expert to explain how he would teach a dog to tell the difference between bunnies and hares!

Tigger, I am fully aware that rabbits are exempt in this act.That does not mean you have the right to go on a private property and allow your dog to chase rabbit!!! The act you should be referring to is the Land Reform Act.

You absolutely cannot go onto private property and allow your dog to chase ANY wild animals!!!

Do you have any idea how many ground roosting birds your dog might, at best, disturb by this behaviour?!!

My two dogs would most certainly give chase at the very least.
One more than the other would see it through to the end, from her past reactions to rabbits.

We used to have many wild rabbits near where we lived.  Some were squished by cars on the A12 or another nearby busy road, or they succumbed to mixy.
In fact one mixy rabbit we saw was in such a state, that had I not had a dog on each hand, I would either have dispatched it myself or let my girl have it.  Poor rabbit.
However, if I'd let my girl off lead to go after it (she wouldn't have had to do much chasing sadly) she'd have more than likely gone after the healthier ones.
Hence why I never have let my dogs chase rabbits, public or private land.  But the intent is there.  (The dogs not I :) )

eta: interesting fact - it is illegal to keep pet rabbits in Queensland.

Dogs a babe - I think you were missing my point! I am sure I could tell the difference between a hare and a rabbit but for a dog to be able to tell the difference is ridiculous, 'I can chase a rabbit' but 'Ive been trained not to chase a hare' the person who said they could be trained to tell the difference made me laugh.

'I absolutely agree. I have a terrier and I love her terrier ways and she is so different to my other dogs. If I had wanted a dog that did everything it was told with no questions and no strong will then I would not have bought a terrier. She is learning recall well and all good behaviour, but there are times when she must be allowed to follow her natural instincts and run like a loony and if this means chasing rabbits then so be it. She must be allowed 'time out' and cannot be on a tight leash all the time and must be allowed to be a terrier. I would hate to train all her terrier nature out of her.
Regards the estate manager, I can imagine our local manager going red in the face at the thought of dogs killing his wildfowl as they are such a money earner. All those little chicks bred purely to be released on days when well paying business men are standing in a line on a fun day out ready to shoot the poor little souls out of the sky for pleasure and sport, many birds just injured and left to die. At least dogs are not cruel, they kill quickly and for a reason, usually food.'

So your terrier chasing rabbits and possibly killing them is fine, but for someone who trains their dogs and does this as/when requested by a farmer with a rabbit problem is cruel, because they are from the sporting/hunting community?

Pricked birds are regarded as urgent to retrieve and often dogs will be sent while the drive is still ongoing, particularly if it's a runner, they are not left to die cruelly, they are retrieved (either by the gun's dog, or by a dog from one of the teams of pickers up) and dispatched of as humanely as possible.  And I think you'll find the birds have a greater chance of getting away than a hen raised for the table, and at least they live a natural life.  People are so ready to condemn shooting and hunting, and yet they are quite happy never to think of the suffering of many animals raised for the table in poor and inhumane conditions, as long as it's packaged and ready to pop in the oven for us. 

A dog won't necessarily kill anything straight away, certainly if it isn't used to live game, and it may take a while for the poor thing to die possibly from shock, after a great deal of suffering.  Dogs aren't cruel, they are just dogs, it is humans that are cruel if they allow a dog free rein to hunt and kill birds/animals. 

So your terrier chasing rabbits and possibly killing them is fine, but for someone who trains their dogs and does this as/when requested by a farmer with a rabbit problem is cruel, because they are from the sporting/hunting community?

I don't recall mentioning farmers shooting rabbits as being wrong in fact I have land backing on to a very large estate and I have seen the damage to crops that rabbits can do, so no, I did not nor would I condemn the killing of rabbits for this reason, nor will I get into a discussion about the rights and wrongs of country folk on shoots etc as this is a very hot and firey debate. What I condemned was the shooting by by non trained shooters who pay for the pleasure of shooting these poor birds, many make their way onto my land with legs shot off or full of pellets and still suffering. These I will put down as quickly as I can ( not my dogs) and it disgusts me that this happens. Any rabbits that cross the fence onto my land are fair game for my dogs.

I didn't mention shooting rabbits, I was referring to someone with trained terriers and a lurcher or two, using slip nets and hunting the rabbits the old fashioned way, or possibly even a few ferrets. 

I completely agree regarding guns who can't shoot, and don't shoot ethically, just paying for a day out without knowing what they're about, I'm not at all a fan of large commercial shoots from what I've heard about them.  Fortunately I have had only positive experiences on the small shoots I've been to to watch, where birds are shot at fairly, and every effort is made to retrieve pricked birds as quickly as possibly.  But you can't tar everyone involved with hunting and shooting with the same brush, that's like lumping all pet owners in together, there are obviously going to be vast differences.  The people I've met on shoots, have been from all walks of life, and it hasn't just been wealthy business men on the pegs. 

I still disagree about rabbits being fair game for any dog, if you're going to kill an animal for food, either for you or for your dog, then it should be done as humanely as possible in every instance, not just to allow a dog to have some fun chasing if it happens upon one.  But I'll probably have to agree to disagree on that issue.

Also, just thinking, while I'm doing my ironing, if it's wrong to injure an animal and allow it to escape, surely you risk that every time you allow your dogs to chase after anything? 

And, just while I'm here, I am hoping very much that my posts aren't coming across as personally critical, not at all meant that way, just trying to put across my point of view and am aware I can be a bit matter of fact in how I post. 

how absolutely lovely!reminds me of a cat i had once that would see off any dog that barked at it.He could be fast asleep under a hedge, when some mannerless hound would run up and bay at him.The next thing youd see would be the dog legging it with timmy in pursuit!He taught a few dogs some manners!

> Do you have any idea how many ground roosting birds your dog might, at best, disturb by this behaviour?!!

As I generally walk my dogs in empty livestock fields then I would say that a. the grass is too short for nesting birds and b. they don't disturb any more than your dogs do rounding up sheep :-)

> Just been sitting outside enjoying the sunshine with black lab not far from my feet as usual, but my black and white dutch rabbit laying chilled out on his side 3 inches from her nose! I know she has been brought up from a pup to know not to harm him but ...... what would your dog do????

Ahhhh, how sweet :)

Buster wouldn't intentionally harm our pet rabbit, but he would try to play with it. Most of the time he will just wander up to the rabbit run & calmly sniff the rabbit through the wire, but when he's feeling a bit more energetic, he'll do a few big play-bows to try to entice the rabbit to play. The rabbit just sits there looking at him with face as if to say - "If you aint got a carrot for me - talk to the tail' :-)

I wouldn't risk him with the rabbit loose as I would worry about the rabbit being trod on in play, Buster is very clumsy, (or the cat getting the rabbit ).

> The next thing youd see would be the dog legging it with timmy in pursuit!He taught a few dogs some manners!

My Dad's next door neighbours have dogs and the hedging isn't dog proof.

I have seen little black and white Sheba cat hot in pursuit of large GSD with tail tucked under running for it's life.

> One electric shock for a rabbit, two for a hare.
>

> ROFL, I'd love our resident electric shock expert to explain how he would teach a dog to tell the difference between bunnies and hares!

ROFL too Tigger2! He's an idiot. would like to know how many times he has to shock some poor dog if there are sheep or deer about and he's "taught " "one electric shock for a rabbit,two for a hare",what next? three for sheep, four for deer, five for cattle!

Well its obvious 3 for a sheep, 4 for a deer, 5 for a cyclist - of course by this time your dog will be lying on the ground writhing in pain - but he won't be chasing anything - so it works!!! QED!

Ooh great minds think alike! ha ha

Indeed! (or fools seldom differ :-D :-D :-D)

In answer to the original question, my lot have never even got close to a rabbit let alone catch one! the boys can spot them (except Claude who's not the brightest star in the sky) but are too slow to catch them and the girls are left standing there wondering where the rabbit went as the rabbits never stray far from the warrens round here and to date the rabbits have all made it to safety.

Dont be too like me though or you may fall up the step into the house,fall over and end up stabbing yourself in the leg with a screwdriver!!! Spent over 4 hours in A & E on sunday!!

f you're going to kill an animal for food, either for you or for your dog, then it should be done as humanely as possible in every instance, not just to allow a dog to have some fun chasing if it happens upon one

Bravo!

Tigger, that's absolutely fine if you think making a comparison between a dog doing a job and a pet owner out for a walk is relevant but I don't think it's comparable. Ground nesters are not limited to long grass. They will nest in even the smallest indentation. They are also unlikely to nest where livestock cause heavy footfall. I do hope the Land Reform Act has cleared up the fact that you are not free to allow your dog to chase rabbit on private land.

Myself and another poster have, more than once, raised the question of untrained dogs and owners causing serious injury to the wildlife chased. Nobody, as yet, has been able to offer an opinion on this. Or perhaps it's not an issue to some for wildlife to be treated in a humane manner, even in death.

It's also interesting to see people say it's absolutely fine for their dog to chase rabbit and, yet, openly admit a dog cannot differentiate between a rabbit and a hare. I appreciate, for some, a dog differentiating between a red and grey squirrel is not an issue. However, for many, it will be. The estate I live on and lease land from work damn hard to protect red squirrels, plant hedgerow to encourage wild birds. Some have spoken about dogs plucking wild birds out of the air in mid flight (including pheasant).

For me, there is no justifiable reason for your dog to be allowed (and, for some, encouraged) to give chase to wildlife. Leave vermin control to those who have the skills to do so. Leave wildlife to inhabit their natural habitat without the risk of being chased down, injured or killed by an untrained dog.

For those who wish to encourage their dogs natural tendency to flush, stalk, herd, retrieve....take them to the appropriate training!! A well trained dog will never give chase without an explicit command to do so.

Please, please respect the countryside and those that inhabit it. I was contracting at a very large estate today and the entry sign was clear. Walkers, cyclists, dogs, horse riders were welcome but only if they remain on the main path (which much work and money has been spent to maintain for people to use). Please respect this.

I keep willing myself not to return to this thread - forget it, move on. However, I am passionate about the wildlife which surrounds me (aside from the rats lol). I am aware that this passion has come across as brash and unforgiving. I can't apologise for that.

> For me, there is no justifiable reason for your dog to be allowed (and, for some, encouraged) to give chase to wildlife.

I agree and have never encouraged any of my lot to chase and they have stopped when I've yelled at them.
To be honest I would be horrified if they caught anything(including rats!) but I can see how difficult it can be to stop a hound or terrier breed when some little furrie pops up in front of them.

When mine caught a rabbit it was all over in a flash.  The rabbit was in the brambles at the side of the path - I had no idea it was there.  Meg must have spotted movement, dived in and the rabbit ran the wrong direction.  Meg dispatched it very quickly - there is no earthly way I could have stopped it even if she had perfect recall because it happened so quickly that I didn't know what was happening.

Of course your sentiments are correct - I have every respect for wildlife and am glad that some people like yourself are doing their best to protect it.  I was horrified when my dog caught a rabbit - my last post above this should have been in reply to your post if I had seen it but it wasn't on the thread when I first started writing it!  I would love to be able to prevent it happening again but there is no way I could train the dog to wait for permission to chase.  I go to classes for agility but where would I go to train my dog to this perfection.  In an ideal world all dogs would be trained perfectly but in reality most of us are doing our best.

sorry the post above was in reply to Colliecrew.