Some of you will remember Oban.  He's two and a half now and a lovely, lovely boy.  BUT ........ I think he is beginning to get mean with other intact boys.  Now, here in Canada intact boys are not the norm but more and more folks are reading the literature and not neutering.  Because intact boys are not the norm I don't feel I can get good advice from my North American counterparts.  So here I am, asking you, what do you do to control this?  Work with this?

Some history.  Oban is a self confident boy and was the terror of his littermates.  I worked really hard at socializing him with off leash dogs and he has something of a fan club at a place we go.

Two weeks ago a neighbours GR full out attacked him as the OH and Oban walked back home, on leash.  Full out body slam, no posturing before attack.  Oban fought back willingly, he is no pushover.  The GR later tried to attack another neighbours black Lab girl too, but the owner tackled him and saved the girl who is old.

A few days after the attack we had an obedience class (open trial prep but we are about to try our first novice) he dashed across the room to investigate the 20 month old intact boy MinPin.  There was not even a skirmish, just vigorous sniffing.

The next week the MinPin's older spayed house mate was apparently in the line of fire from the intact boy MinPin's pee.  She got it on her nose.  We know that, the MinPin owner told us.  Ms. MinPin's best friend in the whole world, a big intact Doberman boy, growled at her like he thought she was the boy, not the girl.  Later the Dobe advanced menacingly on the boy MinPin who was in his crate and behind a low fence.  This is highly unusual for the Dobe who is not aggressive and went out of his way to avoid both Oban and the boy MinPin after their mild scrap the week before.  Oban did his sit and down stays beside Ms. MinPin.  About 10 minutes later he broke from me and charged her across the room.  Again there was no fight but they were both hard to catch as Ms. MinPin takes no guff from rude dogs.

The owners in class are worried about Oban and me too.  I am the least experieced person in the room.  They have all had multiple dogs and trialed them.  Our trainer does not seem to be as concerned as they are but I am being asked again if I am going to neuter.  Next class the other owners have asked that Oban stay on leash and our trainer says everybody is going to stay on leash.  There is a trial in one week that some of us are preparing for so this will be a set back.

More info.  While this will be the first dog I have obedience trialed it is not the goal of my life.  What I want to do the most with my dog is have him off leash while I hike, bike, run, ski, snowshoe.  It will still be a problem if I meet another off leash intact male.  Oban was rude to two young intact males recently but they were both on leash in a place where most of us are off.  His recall is back to excellent and he left them when I called him.  I posted about his recall and his retrieving nearly a year ago and with lots of work, luck and I think maturity we are making good progress.  Whistles are great.  :)

Neuter is the first thing suggested but my readings say it is not guaranteed to help this budding problem of aggression and one reading says it is more of a problem in the neuter population than it is in the intact.   Suprelorin is not available here.

If you made it to the end, thanks for reading.  Any thoughts, opinions, ideas, suggestions welcome.

Nobody?  Was it confusing?  I have seen several posts here from folks who say they do not neuter or spay as a matter of course as we are pressured to do here.  Do none of you take your intact boys out in public off leash where they would meet other intact boys?

My entire boys (now sadly only one) have always gone offlead with other dogs, entire and neutered.

Many years ago we have an entire male who would try to attack other dogs when he was on the lead but was much more reliable off lead. My current boy is nervous of dogs he's never met before so needs careful introduction, but as long as that goes well he'll be okay with them in future.

Some dogs and for that matter some bitches will not mix well with others no matter what.

Some dogs and bitches will take a dislike to a particular dog or bitch for a reason we people can't fathom.

Neutering only really makes a difference if an in season bitch is in the area.

Neutering can make a nervous biter worse.

Neutering can cure dog on dog or bitch on bitch aggregation if this aggregation is purely of a sexual nature but this sort of behaviour is not normal in an adult of most breeds.

Thank you both.

"Some dogs and bitches will take a dislike to a particular dog or bitch for a reason we people can't fathom."

I wonder if this might be a contributing factor in our obedience class.  The teacher and even the owner of the male MinPin say dogs just don't seem to like him.  The MinPin I mean.  Our teacher has several times complimented Oban on his good body language and temperament.  She did so again today after an uneventful class.  The Dobe wasn't there today.  Oban is a Lab, by the way.  Not a breed reknowned for aggression or temperament problems though I realize each is an individual.

We have met several intact males on our off leash walks.  There have been a few skirmishes, preceeded by posturing, but not a fight.  For every such encounter there has been one where we just pass each other and go our own ways.  For every such encounter I can also recount a similar one precipitated by a neutered boy or spayed girl with no reaction other than avoidance by Oban.

Arrgggh.  It's so hard to know what to do.  The little man, my boy, was very good in his class today but I paid a lot more attention to him and also walked him farther than usual before the class.  He paid no attention to any of the dogs, including the grumpy neutered Basenji who does not like any intact boys.

What you describe when your dog meets another off lead is not a skirmish it is the way dogs inter-react. If you think about it it is the way young males behave as well.

Personally reading between the lines you have written there is nothing wrong with your dog it seems to be able to display the correct body language when meeting another dog and after a short test of each individuals strength they happily go on their way.

It is possible the Mini Pin is putting out the wrong or aggressive signals and although some dogs may ignore it yours is not prepared to and who can blame him. My hounds can not bear to have a dog stare at them, they seem to take it as an affront but if approached in a proper manner they are happy to live and let live they may even invite the stranger to play.

Hi everyone.
IMO  neutering isn't the be all and end all of male v male aggression, for every case were it helps I know of cases were it made no difference or made it worse. I think your dog had a fright when the GR attacked him which ahs made him feel more defensive around other dogs, hence his tendancy to check them out/scuffle more than before.
I would suggets if this is the case neutering may actually make it worse as it will remove some of that natural confidence he has. I believe your best bet is to continue exposing him top other intact males and to heap praise on him when he behaves well. If he squares up to them ect I would immediatly recall him and move away from the males. This will teach him that nice interaction is rewarded and that negatiove interaction (were he feels threatened) is best dealt with by moving away from them.

Adam

BTW good luck with the trials.

I didn't reply either as I wanted to see what others said, as what you describe I would not say is aggressive, simply sussing out the other dog and of course not taking notice of you, ad they are a strong distraction.

I have always found allowing a quick assessment of each other and a sniff and posture and then call away so no-one looses face, but no-one feels they need to make a point. 

The dogs are usually relieved to not have to make a point of determining rank.

Your boy is becoming an adult, and acting accordingly.  Unfortunately many people would prefer all canines to remain submissive canine infants.

I am starting to feel better about this.  Oban is not my first intact male but when the family dog was this age, two and a half, I was a whopping six.  We had him till I was 21 though so I do remember lots of his behaviour.

It is possible the Mini Pin is putting out the wrong or aggressive signals and although some dogs may ignore it yours is not prepared to and who can blame him. My hounds can not bear to have a dog stare at them,

Our teacher says the same thing.  She says the MinPin stares.  I'm concentrating on my own dog enough that I have not noticed this.

IMO  neutering isn't the be all and end all of male v male aggression, for every case were it helps I know of cases were it made no difference or made it worse.

Exactly what my readings say.  No guarantees it will work.  And if it doesn't then the only option is training and behaviour modification so why don't I just do that in the first place?  I had, by co-incidence, contacted a local trainer I know who specializes in aggression problems about something else before this problem reared it's head.  He has not replied yet.

I think your dog had a fright when the GR attacked him which ahs made him feel more defensive around other dogs, hence his tendancy to check them out/scuffle more than before.

This is what I have wondered and our teacher has too.  She wonders if Oban now feels he has to get his licks in first.

BTW good luck with the trials.Thanks.

If he squares up to them ect I would immediatly recall him and move away from the males. This will teach him that nice interaction is rewarded and that negatiove interaction (were he feels threatened) is best dealt with by moving away from them.

I have always found allowing a quick assessment of each other and a sniff and posture and then call away so no-one looses face, but no-one feels they need to make a point. 

OK, this is where I don't know what to do.  I have been allowing the squaring up but have not been calling away.  Well I guess I have as I walk away myself and say, "C'mon Ob, LET'S GO."  But I always wonder if I am putting Oban at a disadvantage by calling him off another dog who is equally interested in squaring up?  If Oban leaves the other dog prematurely to follow me is the other dog going to sense capitulation and use his advantage? 

My lurcher, Vic, is an intact male and is a very friendly happy go lucky lad with dogs, there is one collie locally though he cannot stand and starts barking like a lune at the sight of him. The collie has never done a thing to actually harm my dog except one time it 'herded' my OHs parked car while Vic was sat in it. Before that Vic didn't care about the collie but now he hates it, it's a starer too.

More encouraging news from my Vet.  He does not believe neutering will help with true aggression and he says he can't believe Oban has a problem.  Mind you, the only dogs he sees Oban with are the other ones in the waiting room.  Oban is VERY friendly to people.  Typical Lab overly friendly.  Anyway, back to my Vet.  He says in his experience, when he has neutered because of an owners problem with aggression, the end result depends mostly on that owners ability to handle the dog and train it.  This not your average North American Vet's opinion on the efficacy of neutering.  My Vet says it's main value is to prevent puppies. 

Today we attempted some distraction training on a lakeshore walkway where I hoped to meet more dogs than we did.  Too hot I guess.  The last one we met was an older Shepherd mix girl and she wanted to play with Oban and I thought, oh heck, he's worked hard enough in this heat and I let them play.

It's a risk, but so is a dust up. If the other dog retreats most dogs will decied that they have won and leave it at that. Some (very few) will follow up but they would probably follow up anyway in a confrontation.

Adam